Incorrect scoring of sacrifice bunt

White Sox · 10-30-2009, 02:54 PM

I've noticed what seems to be an in-game scoring mistake while playing out a game. Here was my situation:

My leadoff hitter doubled to start the bottom of the first inning. My second place hitter laid down a sacrifice bunt out in front of the plate, which for all intents and purposes succeeded. The runner moved from second to third. However, on the play, the catcher, who fielded the ball, overthrew the second baseman covering the bag and the ball went into the stands, sending the batter to second base and scoring the runner from second.

The play was scored as a straight error on the catcher, no sacrifice credited: "Reached on error, E2 (Groundball, 25)."

I can only judge this as incorrect scoring. Regardless of the error committed on the play, the batter must be awarded a sacrifice in this situation. It should properly be credited as "Sacrifice, E-2." The successful bunt moved the runner along to third, thus the batter did his job, and only by way of the error was the batter allowed to reach first and then second, and the runner allowed to score.

I notice that when a runner is on base, there is only the option to "Bunt." The game does not differentiate between sacrifice bunting and bunting for a hit in this situation, which is really the way it should be. Because even if the batter were trying to bunt for a hit in this instance, given the situation, the batter would still be credited with a sacrifice on the play in real life almost 100% of the time.

This is really something that needs to be corrected in future versions of the game. If necessary, I can try to post screenshots.

EDIT: I should also mention that the batter was even credited with an RBI on this play, which is patently incorrect.

SteveP · 10-30-2009, 03:44 PM

I'm no expert, but my understanding all along has been that an SH can only be recorded as such if the batter is thrown out and the baserunner(s) advances. Otherwise, the play is recorded as something else (a hit, a pop up, a K, an error). I did not think that the official scorer would try to decide what the batter's intention was. After all, a batter isn't awarded an SF if the OF drops the ball.

But I know there are some true experts on these boards (though maybe not all of them check the technical forum) so we may see more posts on the subject.

TribeFanInNC · 10-30-2009, 03:52 PM

Looks like the OP is correct. From the Baseball Almanac:

SACRIFICES
10.09 (a) Score a sacrifice bunt when, before two are out, the batter advances one or more runners with a bunt and is put out at first base, or would have been put out except for a fielding error.

That being said, Markus isn't generally known for fixing the obscure stuff. We'll try to remember it for the next version. Thanks for the heads up Waninski.

White Sox · 10-30-2009, 04:06 PM

Thanks for looking into it, guys. I know this is pretty minute, obscure detail, but for us statistical nerds, this is important!

Also, to respond to this: After all, a batter isn't awarded an SF if the OF drops the ball.

This is not entirely true. If a batter hits a fly ball to the outfield that the official scorer believes would have been deep enough to score the runner from third base, he is still credited with a sacrifice fly even if the outfielder drops the ball. I've seen it happen more than once.

SteveP · 10-30-2009, 04:29 PM

It's always good to get a little education.

SteveP · 11-06-2009, 04:24 PM

Since I was doing a bug report on the RBI issue, I decided to go ahead and get this one into the system as well. BZ3622.

SteveP · 11-12-2009, 03:59 PM

Interesting that I just ran into this in a real life game log. The batter was credited with an SH, even though he was safe on an error. Just additional confirmation that OOTP apparently has this wrong.

White Sox · 11-13-2009, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveP

Interesting that I just ran into this in a real life game log. The batter was credited with an SH, even though he was safe on an error. Just additional confirmation that OOTP apparently has this wrong.

I'm not exactly sure the circumstances of the case you're referencing, but that may not necessarily be incorrect.

If the batter gets down a reasonably good bunt that would have otherwise sacrificed the runner to the next base regardless of the error and the batter being safe, often times the batter is still credited with a sacrifice in addition to the error. It would be scored, for example, "Sacrifice, E-5," or what have you. Ultimately, it's up to the discretion of the official scorer, so it's not always so cut and dried.

SteveP · 11-13-2009, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waninski

I'm not exactly sure the circumstances of the case you're referencing, but that may not necessarily be incorrect.

Again, this is a real life game log (so based on official scorer decision), not an OOTP game log. I've read hundreds of these game logs, and I continue to do so as I play my historical league. It's just something that I probably only noticed because of this thread. It confirms what you said in the OP.

White Sox · 11-13-2009, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveP

Again, this is a real life game log (so based on official scorer decision), not an OOTP game log. I've read hundreds of these game logs, and I continue to do so as I play my historical league. It's just something that I probably only noticed because of this thread. It confirms what you said in the OP.

Oh, yes, I understand now. I read your post wrong, my bad.

10-30-2009, 02:54 PM	#1
White Sox All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 583	Incorrect scoring of sacrifice bunt I've noticed what seems to be an in-game scoring mistake while playing out a game. Here was my situation: My leadoff hitter doubled to start the bottom of the first inning. My second place hitter laid down a sacrifice bunt out in front of the plate, which for all intents and purposes succeeded. The runner moved from second to third. However, on the play, the catcher, who fielded the ball, overthrew the second baseman covering the bag and the ball went into the stands, sending the batter to second base and scoring the runner from second. The play was scored as a straight error on the catcher, no sacrifice credited: "Reached on error, E2 (Groundball, 25)." I can only judge this as incorrect scoring. Regardless of the error committed on the play, the batter must be awarded a sacrifice in this situation. It should properly be credited as "Sacrifice, E-2." The successful bunt moved the runner along to third, thus the batter did his job, and only by way of the error was the batter allowed to reach first and then second, and the runner allowed to score. I notice that when a runner is on base, there is only the option to "Bunt." The game does not differentiate between sacrifice bunting and bunting for a hit in this situation, which is really the way it should be. Because even if the batter were trying to bunt for a hit in this instance, given the situation, the batter would still be credited with a sacrifice on the play in real life almost 100% of the time. This is really something that needs to be corrected in future versions of the game. If necessary, I can try to post screenshots. EDIT: I should also mention that the batter was even credited with an RBI on this play, which is patently incorrect. __________________ "Pitching, Defense, and the Three-Run Homer." Last edited by White Sox; 10-30-2009 at 03:11 PM.

10-30-2009, 03:52 PM	#3
TribeFanInNC Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,019	Looks like the OP is correct. From the Baseball Almanac: SACRIFICES 10.09 (a) Score a sacrifice bunt when, before two are out, the batter advances one or more runners with a bunt and is put out at first base, or would have been put out except for a fielding error. That being said, Markus isn't generally known for fixing the obscure stuff. We'll try to remember it for the next version. Thanks for the heads up Waninski. Last edited by TribeFanInNC; 10-30-2009 at 03:57 PM.

10-30-2009, 04:06 PM	#4
White Sox All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 583	Thanks for looking into it, guys. I know this is pretty minute, obscure detail, but for us statistical nerds, this is important! Also, to respond to this: After all, a batter isn't awarded an SF if the OF drops the ball. This is not entirely true. If a batter hits a fly ball to the outfield that the official scorer believes would have been deep enough to score the runner from third base, he is still credited with a sacrifice fly even if the outfielder drops the ball. I've seen it happen more than once. __________________ "Pitching, Defense, and the Three-Run Homer."

10-30-2009, 03:44 PM	#2
SteveP Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,109	I'm no expert, but my understanding all along has been that an SH can only be recorded as such if the batter is thrown out and the baserunner(s) advances. Otherwise, the play is recorded as something else (a hit, a pop up, a K, an error). I did not think that the official scorer would try to decide what the batter's intention was. After all, a batter isn't awarded an SF if the OF drops the ball. But I know there are some true experts on these boards (though maybe not all of them check the technical forum) so we may see more posts on the subject.

10-30-2009, 04:29 PM	#5
SteveP Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,109	It's always good to get a little education.

11-06-2009, 04:24 PM	#6
SteveP Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,109	Since I was doing a bug report on the RBI issue, I decided to go ahead and get this one into the system as well. BZ3622.

11-12-2009, 03:59 PM	#7
SteveP Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,109	Interesting that I just ran into this in a real life game log. The batter was credited with an SH, even though he was safe on an error. Just additional confirmation that OOTP apparently has this wrong.