Laszlo Papp: The Lost Years

[Ric915]

Awesome Prof looking forward to another spectacular career sim.

[professordp]

RING RATINGS FOR THE MONTH

Ending August 15, 1948

MIDDLEWEIGHTS

Tony Zale, Champion

1-Marcel Cerdan

2-Bert Lytell

3-Jose Basora

4-Rocky Graziano

5-Jake LaMotta

6-Robert Villemain

7-Cyrille Delannoit

8-Dick Turpin

9-Steve Belloise

10-Lee Sala


(Taken from the October 1948 issue of The Ring)

[Ric915]

Originally Posted by professordp

RING RATINGS FOR THE MONTH

Ending August 15, 1948

MIDDLEWEIGHTS

Tony Zale, Champion

1-Marcel Cerdan

2-Bert Lytell

3-Jose Basora

4-Rocky Graziano

5-Jake LaMotta

6-Robert Villemain

7-Cyrille Delannoit

8-Dick Turpin

9-Steve Belloise

10-Lee Sala


(Taken from the October 1948 issue of The Ring)

Wow Steve Belloise. My Step dad who is quite older then my mom(actually just turned 90 was child hood friends with Mike and Steve Belloise. Another of his Friends was Tami Mauriello whom I got a chance to meet when I was about 15 or 16. (wish I knew then what I know now would have asked alot more questions of Tami)

[professordp]

New York Daily Star
October 16, 1948


Papp Winner in First Pro Match

By Jimmy Wallwork

Hungarian Olympian Laszlo Papp made his much anticipate pro debut at St. Nick's Arena last night with a six round unanimous decision over Johnny "Kid" Caruso. Papp sent Caruso to the mat in the third and fifth rounds.

Papp came out fresh at the opening bell and displayed many of the skills that won him a gold medal in London this past summer. Short on ability but long on heart, Caruso tried his best to mount his own attack but to no avail.

The Hungarian peppered the Jersey City native with jabs which set Caruso up for vicious blows to the head. Papp was particularly effective with his hooks and did not miss many opportunities to work his opponents body.

During the fourth round, Caruso appeared to be on his way out. Still feeling the effects from the first knockdown in the previous round, he was little more than a punching bag for the energetic Papp. But to his credit Caruso is a game fighter and somehow managed to hang on.

Papp sent Caruso to the mat again in round five with thirty seconds remaining in the heat and finished strong in the closing round. The three judges awarded him all six rounds and submitted identical scorecards of 60-52 for the point tally.

Overall, ringsiders gave Papp high grades for his performance. A few, however, raised questions concerning his ability to finish off an opponent given the fact that he had Caruso in trouble several times during the match.

But more savy ring buff contend that Papp only needs to adjust to the differences in the pro game. Had this been an amatuer event, undoubtedly the match would have likely been halted in the third round. Most maintain that as he continues in the professionall ranks, he'll be more adept in this department.

A familiar face in New York boxing circles, Caruso is far from a kid. He's been fighting on undercards since 1941 and had twenty-eight pro fights coming into the bout. While certainly far from the middleweight division's top tier, he is a seasoned fighter and was more than an appropriate opponent for Papp in his first pro match.

Over the past month, Papp has caused quite a stir among boxing fans since his defection following this summer's Olympic games. With his good looks, Clark Gable moustache, and obvious boxing skills he's an attractive commodity to both managers and promoters.

Presently, he has no manager and being guided by his trainer Szigmund Adler who also defected following the Olympics. Adler has a long association with Papp and prepared him for the London competition which ultimately led to Laszlo's gold medal performance in the middleweight division this summer.

Among the attendees last night were several of New York boxing's power players, including Al Weill, Irving Cohen, and Cus D'Amato. Boxing insiders report that the three are engaged in a high stakes bidding war to sign Papp to a long term contract.

[professordp]

For Papp's first opponent I took a little creative license and selected a person I knew rather well. Johnny "Kid" Caruso was the father and uncle of very close friends from a period of my life that is now far too in the past.

Over the past decade, I pretty much lost touch with my friends, and the Kid (who we referred to as Uncle Johnny) moved his clan to another part of out state. I recently learned that he had passed on last year and thought it would a be fitting tribute to use him to start Papp's professional career in my sim. Below is a rating I have created for him.

We all have a good time here with the "tomato cans", but we shouldn't forget that they were real people who are an important part of the sport. Kid Caruso retired in 1947 ( I extended his career for the sim by one year) and fought professionally twenty-eight times with a career record of 11 (KO 3)-15 (8 by KO) and two draws.

Caruso family legend was that his clan pressured him to retire after being knocked cold for ten minutes in the second round by Jimmy Milligan. After his boxing career ended, he married, raised five children, worked hard (he always had at least two jobs!) and owned a home.

Unlike the popular image of old pugs, Kid Caruso didn't talk much about his ring days. He was, however, very proud of the fact that he did fight twice in Madison Square Garden. If you really pressed him on the subject of boxing, he would be inclined to tell you about his two fights with Bayonne rival Mickey Makar with whom he split via decisions.

Among my many memories of "Uncle" Johnny Caruso was watching the Ali-Cooper match with him and my friends back in 1966. His insighful commentary during the match was far superior to that provided by the network that broadcast the fight.

For those of you who like to work "tomato cans" into your unis, please give due consideration to Johnny "Kid" Caruso. Personally, I think he would have been very proud to have entered the ring against the great Laszlo Papp, regardless of the ultimate outcome.

[a87star]

is there a particular rating that you are using for Papp. I have two rated 9 at MW and one rated 10 at JMW in my DB.

[professordp]

Originally Posted by a87star

is there a particular rating that you are using for Papp. I have two rated 9 at MW and one rated 10 at JMW in my DB.

If you could pass them along (post or e-mail), I'd really like to look them over. I've adjusted the official fighter pool rating which I thought was not representative in a few areas. Currently, I am working off a pre-prime rating for the first two years of the sim. He starts at age twenty-two; once he reaches 24-25, I'll be using him with a prime rating.

As I did with the Teofilo Stevenson sim last year. I'll be tweaking here and there as I progress through Papp's career, so whatever rating you've put together would be a very big help!

[a87star]

Here are the two files I picked up from here and Cornerwork. Not my ratings.

[professordp]

thanks!!!

[professordp]

Originally Posted by a87star

Here are the two files I picked up from here and Cornerwork. Not my ratings.

As I had indicated, I made a few adjustments to the official rating. In particular, I gave Papp a stronger chin. I'm in the process of building a pre-prime rating for the first few years. For the Caruso fight, I just set the career stage to "Pre-Prime."

Here's my "tweaked" rating for Papp's prime. As you'll see, its just a minor modification of the pool rating.

[professordp]

The following are a few more early opponents for the sim which I created out of "whole cloth".

I have a few basic points for the fighters that Papp will face early in his career. First, they have to be from the New York metropolitan area or have had some fights in the region's venues. Second, they have to be your typical "tomato can"--a preliminary pug who's record is not very impressive. Finally, they MUST have interesting names.

Rather than post these fighters after their respective bouts with Laszlo, I thought it might be fun to provide a little preview of each.

I expect that this will be the first wave of a number of "homebrews" for the first two years of this career sim, and I'll post them as I progress through the project.

I hope you tomato can fans can have some fun with these guys!

[professordp]

This king got crowned early and often! Of his thirty defeats, he lost twenty-two by knockout---usually he was being counted out by the second round. He ran an impressive streak of being kayoed in the first round in four consecutive fights.

He was a regular at the smaller New York venues, and fought prelims every other week (must have really needed money!).

King David fought out of New York's Harlem, and his real name was Ernest Foster. But with a record like his, could you really blame him for using an alias???

[professordp]

Damn this torpedo, and full speed ahead. And damned he was winning only twenty of his seventy-three pro fights! But to give a little credit, he was reported to have a pretty decent chin only failing to finish three times and counted out twice early in his eight year career. His other early departure was via TKO.

Problem here was that they forgot to arm this Torpedo! Of his twenty wins, only three of his opponents were counted out. Another was stopped in eigth.

Pretty much an undercard fighter, he had a couple of main events. A native of Los Angeles, he was a regular prelim fighter at Legion Stadium and Olympic Auditorium.

In the last years of his career, he became pretty much wanderer, ultimately finding his way to the East Coast. In 1948, the Torpedo was launched in several New York venues, with one loss at Madison Square Garden and a loss to Lenny Mancini in Brooklyn's famed Braodway Arena.

[professordp]

Great name! Not so great fighter. Won thirty of ninety-four bouts in his five year career (I should mention that he had fifteen draws-hmmm).

Brooklyn born and raised, Coolidge would have been a prime victim---I mean opponent for a young Laszlo Papp at the start of his pro career.

From his record, things were not always cool for Coolidge!

[bear]

Like the tomato cans, professor. Also enjoying your comments on their careers, such as they were.

bear

[professordp]

I'm making a creative stretch with this guy! He retired in 1946, and his fights were all in California, and I wonder if he could have found New York on a map.

BUT I'm scheduling Papp to fight on a St. Valentine's Day 1949 card at Madison Square Garden, and what better opponent than a guy named "Cupid"!

Gordon was strictly a prelim fighter (fought only four and six rounders) who was only counted out once in his forty professional bouts. Of those forty he lost twenty-two and drew seven times. Of the eleven he did win, six were by KO.

Here's the creative part. I have him looking for work two years after he retires and he winds up in NYC where he agrees to a quick payday in a six-rounder.

The rating attached has him as a boxer (I took a wild guess here) and sets him as "Prime". He fought frequently 1946 (it would appear he did a stint in the service during WW II), so his conditioning is an 8. For the sim with Papp, I'm making the following changes. First, I'm setting him at "Post-Prime" and adjusting his conditioning to 7 (inactive fighter). By February 1949, he was two years out of the ring with his best years behind him.

Something tells me that this Cupid might have an empty quiver.

[BigBoyBrackey]

Just got a chance to catch up with this -- great stuff, as ever, Professor.

Thanks for the kind words in the introductory post. Your work has been a big part of getting me involved on these here boards ...

I'm really looking forward to this. Don't know that much about Papp, other than the standard bio. It will be interesting to see how well he can adapt to the pro game -- from everything I've read and seen, there was a large stylistic gulf between many of the top Europeans and their American counterparts back then, with the former favoring an upright, methodical (robotic?) style better suited to the amateurs. With Papp coming to America, can he assimilate with the likes of Zale, Graziano, LaMotta and Robinson? Then again, that Cerdan guy did OK (and might again?).

And it's always good to see awareness raised of the name Laszlo, which was shared (sans the 's') by a truly Great American ...

[professordp]

I hope you enjoy it once I get it moving. Right now I'm sort of setting it up. I'm going through my old boxing magazines from the 50s and 60s to revisit his career. Everything I've read through the years indicated that he could have been great as a pro---thus the inspiration for this sim. He was thirty when the communist regime let him dabble in the pros, so those fights were not partilularly indicative of what he might have done if really given a chance. I share your view on the Euro fighters--of course Cerdan was a different matter. I also felt that Gustav "Bubi" Scholz was a standout as well. Too bad his only crack at a world title was when he was a little past prime and fighting as a light heavy.

The interesting thing about this era (and I hope the sim) is that the division sort of goes through a pretty big transition. It starts with Zale, Graziano, Cerdan, and LaMotta. By the time Papp actually turns pro, Gene Fullmer and Carmen Basilio are major players. The real constant thread is Sugar Ray within the division. At the end of Papp's career Joey Giardello is wearing the crown. He started his career the same year that I have Papp defect.

Spider Webb, Paul Pender, Dick Tiger, Terry Downes, and Hurricane Carter were all active in Laszlo's later years. And I've not even mentioned any of the welterweights who moved up (Kid Gavalin) during the mid-period.

So there's a broad range of potential matchups for this sim. I'll just with the flow here, as I did with the Stevenson sim. Minimally, I'll run it until the end of 1956 to account for the "lost years".

[professordp]

New York Daily Star

December 2, 1948


Papp Bangs Out Second Win
With Unanimous Nod

By Jimmy Wallwork

Laszlo Papp, winner of a gold medal at last summer's Olympic games, scored his second professional victory with a unanimous six round verdict over Harlem's King David last night in an undercard match at St. Nick's Arena.

Papp pretty much had his way with the King, who had been a regular undercard slugger in local venues. After putting on a picture-book boxing display in the first round, the Hungarian ripped a deep gash over King David's left brow with a sharp uppercut in the next round.

For the remainder of the match, the King did his best to protect the wound by avoiding mixing it up with Papp. Laszlo's steady assault in the third along with the free flow of blood coming from above David's eye had the referee taking a close look at the action.

As the round closed, there was high speculation among the crowd that David wasn't coming out for the fourth. But the King did answer the bell to face his tormenter for another round.

David seemed a little worn from the encounter and appeared to be an easy mark for Papp. Laszlo however failed to take full advantage of the situation by demonstrating a lack of patience. Rather than set his opponent up, Papp winged lefts and rights, many of which missed there mark.

The effort might have winded the Hungarian a bit as he looked lethargic when he came out for round five and resorted to some occassional holding. The final round was a slow affair with the fighters engaging in infrequent exchanges, none of which did any damage.

By the cards of all three judges, Papp took all six rounds with a cored of 60-54.

While the result was far from a surprise, a number of ringsiders were questioning Papp's inability to put his opponent away.

King David, who's real name is Ernest Foster, is univerally recognized by New York's boxing fans as the owner of a glass jaw. He's been kayoed twenty-two times in his thirty losses with most of the countouts taking place by the second round.

To be fair to Papp, he's not known to be a one-punch knockout artist. He's a classic boxer/puncher who wears his opponents down with a steady barrage of blows.

Still the inability to even send a fighter like King David to the canvas for a count is caused for a raised eyebrow. More importantly, although looked like a punching machine for the first four rounds, he appeared tired in the last two heats and missed many of his punches.

All of that said, nobody's suggesting that we start composing Papp's epitaph at this juncture. This was his second fight as a pro, and he's obviously still making adjustments.

It will take more than two fights to get a true assessment of Laszlo's place among the current class of middleweights.

[CONN CHRIS]

Great snippets of information on the also-rans Prof - you truly have a flair for these.