In-game Subs not based on Depth Chart

[TribeFanInNC]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

I don't know how telling the AI not to pinch hit for somebody in the 9th inning if there isn't a defensive replacement of "x" rating available to sub in is all that difficult. I'm not asking the AI to be "smart" or "plan ahead"...if you want to pinch hit for somebody, look down the bench to see if you have the criteria necessary before making the change. Sounds pretty foolproof to me.

Right. The problem is that you won't get agreement on '9th' or 'x'. Somebody else will think that it should be the 8th or the 7th. Maybe even the 5th. Also 'x' is totally going to be dependant on a particular manager's risk. I, for instance, have no problem using my backup catcher to PH in the 6th or 7th inning if he is the best man for the job.

I'm not saying you don't have a valid point. It would be nice if the AI was a little smarter in these specific instances. Personally, I look at it in another way. I'm happy the AI is trying to win every game and not just conceding after 7 innings, to the point of sometimes painting itself into a corner. If it makes a few bad decisions, so be it but at least it is trying to win.

IMO, the bigger problem is AI roster management in that it doesn't pick bench players right to cover the decisions it makes. I see teams that don't have a decent backup CF or SS or 2 lefties in the bullpen. I think this leads to some of the problems.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

I don't know how telling the AI not to pinch hit for somebody in the 9th inning if there isn't a defensive replacement of "x" rating available to sub in is all that difficult. I'm not asking the AI to be "smart" or "plan ahead"...if you want to pinch hit for somebody, look down the bench to see if you have the criteria necessary before making the change. Sounds pretty foolproof to me.

Well look at it another way. IRL would you look kindly on a manager who decided not to use a big bat, because he had no defensive players left, in the bottom of the 9th, or 12th or 15th inning with runners in scoring position and a chance to win the game? What if he had no pitchers left?

It very much depends on the situation. For a game early in the year maybe, but with the pennant on the line?

That's why its tough to program. If you made a hard rule in the programming, there would be posts on the forum about the AI never PHitting with a chance to win. That's just as unrealistic.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by TribeFanInNC

Right. The problem is that you won't get agreement on '9th' or 'x'. Somebody else will think that it should be the 8th or the 7th. Maybe even the 5th. Also 'x' is totally going to be dependant on a particular manager's risk. I, for instance, have no problem using my backup catcher to PH in the 6th or 7th inning if he is the best man for the job.

We already have the situation screens in the strategy section to define when stuff happens, so we don't need to deal with agreement issues for situations...it's already built-in.

As for agreeing on "x", I'm suggesting that it be an editable field...so if you're comfortable with a guy rated as a "2" then you would set it as such while I'd like it set to "5".

[endgame]

Let's not forget, as well, that the opinions everyone is putting forward evaluate an AI working with the best available resources, and frankly it isn't going to have those that often. We can all claim to be well-versed and skilled at filling our 25-man, but there's a probability, IMHO, that there are many rosters that fill their depth charts tighter than a turtle's butt, and that's water tight, not much room for negotiation.

I'm sure someone will cite an exception as soon as I post this, but one area of PH and roster management in which the AI has made great strides is the use of the backup C as a PH. It will still use him, if dictated to win, but the frequency at which it used to occur has diminished considerably. Even in this case, if we were to manage a roster with a 3B who could also play C, that offers the AI, effectively, a second backup C and the way in which decisions are made suddenly alters.

Again, it works with what it has to work with. Is it perfect? No. We're not. Aside from that, I don't know if in this game, this genre, this community, perfect can even be defined.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by RchW

Well look at it another way. IRL would you look kindly on a manager who decided not to use a big bat, because he had no defensive players left, in the bottom of the 9th, or 12th or 15th inning with runners in scoring position and a chance to win the game? What if he had no pitchers left?

How often is this situation going to come about? What you're describing is essentially every other bench player save for your big bat has been used before the bottom of the 9th or extra innings? I think that is pretty unlikely unless we're dealing with injuries or ejections and if that's the case, then all bets are off. But, if the manager has burned his only backup(s) for the more skilled positions before using his big bat, then I'd hang that on the poor management for either using his bench inappropriately or else not building a better bench.

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

I don't know how telling the AI not to pinch hit for somebody in the 9th inning if there isn't a defensive replacement of "x" rating available to sub in is all that difficult. I'm not asking the AI to be "smart" or "plan ahead"...if you want to pinch hit for somebody, look down the bench to see if you have the criteria necessary before making the change. Sounds pretty foolproof to me.

I'm not going to speculate about how easy this would be for Markus to set up and debug. He can speak for himself (though keep in mind that he is a man of few words ). In the meantime, my take on the fact that in OOTP any player can play any position, and that sometimes they do (even when you have PH/PRing down to realistic levels) is:

1. Ugly to look at. I have to avert my gaze.

2. Almost completely inconsequential to the outcome of games, and certainly to the outcome of a season. From what I've seen, if a guy is playing badly out of position for 3-4 innings, you may well lose the game because of it. 1 or even 2 innings, probably not. Unrealistic (especially in the case of OFs playing C, or Cs playing SS, for example), but expedient. It happens so seldom in my games now that I just laugh it off. But that's just me.

[johnnyshaka]

What happens more often during the course of a game...a squeeze bunt or a defensive substitution? I'm pretty sure I can guess the answer and yet we have a slider for one of the least common plays in baseball and nothing for something that happens just about every game.

SteveP, and others, not trying to pick a fight or anything like that, just trying to drum up a little fanfare for either more control of who (and who doesn't) enter a game or have the AI refer to the depth chart for those situations.

[esovia23]

The game substitutes based on the score Ive found. With relievers, if you're ahead, it will bring in your top relievers for the late innings. If you are behind going in to the later innings, it goes to the bottom relievers you have listed in the charts.

[BMW]

Originally Posted by SteveP

I'm not going to speculate about how easy this would be for Markus to set up and debug. He can speak for himself (though keep in mind that he is a man of few words ). In the meantime, my take on the fact that in OOTP any player can play any position, and that sometimes they do (even when you have PH/PRing down to realistic levels) is:

1. Ugly to look at. I have to avert my gaze.

2. Almost completely inconsequential to the outcome of games, and certainly to the outcome of a season. From what I've seen, if a guy is playing badly out of position for 3-4 innings, you may well lose the game because of it. 1 or even 2 innings, probably not. Unrealistic (especially in the case of OFs playing C, or Cs playing SS, for example), but expedient. It happens so seldom in my games now that I just laugh it off. But that's just me.

I don't mind that every player can play every position. It is the fact that they sometimes do that becomes an issue. I posted a suggestion here to add to player strategies: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...-position.html

But frankly, I'd work with just a bunch of checkboxes for C/1/2/3/S/L/C/R that could be checked to prevent a player from playing there. I imagine that it could cause more bugs though. What happens when you uncheck Catcher for everyone on your club and then your catcher gets injured or ejected?

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

SteveP, and others, not trying to pick a fight or anything like that, just trying to drum up a little fanfare for either more control of who (and who doesn't) enter a game or have the AI refer to the depth chart for those situations.

The depth chart issue is a real one, as I've said, but I think it's off the table until OOTP11, at least. As for the rest, more power to you. I only wanted to provide a little perspective and context for you -- you are welcome to lobby Markus all you want (the line forms at the rear ).

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by BMW

What happens when you uncheck Catcher for everyone on your club and then your catcher gets injured or ejected?

The reality of course is that OFs do, from time to time, strap up and take position behind the plate -- precisely because the typical MLB team only has two catchers. OFs pitch in late innings. All kinds of things happen that get players in unfamiliar positions (although it's reasonable to guess that these players played these positions some time in the past -- high school or little league or whatever). I think the negative consequences of that IRL are greater than in OOTP, which is unrealistic. I think it happens more in OOTP than IRL -- but not all that much when PH/PRing is set at realistic levels.

Still, if you want to put energy into lobbying Markus to do more on this issue, I'm certainly not going to stand in your way.

[conception]

I've never thought of the depth chart as the guideline for in-game substitutions, except of course for the spots that it has designated as defensive subs. But I always use it to set-up my substitution patterns and anticipate that the in-game application is going to result in certain guys getting more PT over others.

Similar to that, I have found that I can usually anticipate how the AI is going to use my bullpen since I've been playing it enough. My middle reliever #1 is almost always my team's best non-closer reliever, although if I've had a guy that has done a good job as closer but isn't the most talented, I keep him in that spot and enjoy seeing my best reliever pitching in more games. My setup men, usually a right or lefty, are good but not great because OOTP seems to use these guys less, especially #2. Since the #2 is usually a lefty, I make him a MR as well so the AI will feel free to use him wherever.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

How often is this situation going to come about? What you're describing is essentially every other bench player save for your big bat has been used before the bottom of the 9th or extra innings? I think that is pretty unlikely unless we're dealing with injuries or ejections and if that's the case, then all bets are off. But, if the manager has burned his only backup(s) for the more skilled positions before using his big bat, then I'd hang that on the poor management for either using his bench inappropriately or else not building a better bench.

I agree with you that my reference to the 9th inning may be off-base, but in todays game with 12 and 13 man pitching staffs it is very likely that in an extra inning game with some runs scored that you will be down to the catcher and one or no other PH on the bench. For an NL game two PH and a PR puts you right there. I'd say that could happen 10-15 times a year. YMMV.

[johnnyshaka]

So, I dialed down the PH/PR settings before exporting for the first three games of the World Series and guess what...the shenanigans continue. First two games go by without anything out of the ordinary but game three had me shaking my head yet again.

Heading into the 9th we were up 1-0 and my catcher is pitch hit for...fine by me. The PH doesn't reach base. That pinch hitter is then replaced by the backup catcher...perfectly done. Later in the inning my starting SS gets pinch hit for...fine by me. Here's where things get goofy...my backup catcher was pulled in favor of a middle infielder and then moved from catcher to SS and then the guy who pinch hit for my SS was moved to catcher...huh? The guy who ended up playing catcher...Jack Cust...and, no, he doesn't have a rating at catcher.

Again, I have no issue with both my catcher and SS being pinch hit for in this situation but the AI's logic is BRUTAL with regards to dealing with the defense afterwards.

SteveP, I know you said this was a bug that Marcus has never seen but now I've seen it twice in 2-3 weeks (in-game time)...maybe he's not looking closely enough.

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

So, I dialed down the PH/PR settings before exporting for the first three games of the World Series and guess what...the shenanigans continue. First two games go by without anything out of the ordinary but game three had me shaking my head yet again.

Heading into the 9th we were up 1-0 and my catcher is pitch hit for...fine by me. The PH doesn't reach base. That pinch hitter is then replaced by the backup catcher...perfectly done. Later in the inning my starting SS gets pinch hit for...fine by me. Here's where things get goofy...my backup catcher was pulled in favor of a middle infielder and then moved from catcher to SS and then the guy who pinch hit for my SS was moved to catcher...huh? The guy who ended up playing catcher...Jack Cust...and, no, he doesn't have a rating at catcher.

Again, I have no issue with both my catcher and SS being pinch hit for in this situation but the AI's logic is BRUTAL with regards to dealing with the defense afterwards.

SteveP, I know you said this was a bug that Marcus has never seen but now I've seen it twice in 2-3 weeks (in-game time)...maybe he's not looking closely enough.

Congratulations on getting into the WS! You have two choices in that situation: Control the decisions yourself, or let the AI control them. There is no right answer. But live with the consequences.

The bug I referred to is very specific. It can occur only when:

1. two position players are lifted for PH/PRs in the same inning;

2. neither of the PH/PRers are suitable replacements in the field; and

3. there are substitutes for those two players sitting on the bench.

In that event, the AI will probably plug the two substitutes into the same slot in the lineup. Stupid, but true. The key is to reduce the likelihood of #1. After that, it's a matter of luck. I only see the bug now in historicals where there are more position players on the bench. Even then, it's pretty rare.

It's pretty hard to tell if you have PHing/PRing at the right level without playing out a lot of games (most of a season).

[Markus Heinsohn]

The AI does already all sorts of decision balancing/making when subbing in games. The problem is that no AI in this regard will ever be perfect. But I am aware of some issues, however, I have not been able to properly reprocude these... so, this will be looked at again for OOTP 11

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

The AI does already all sorts of decision balancing/making when subbing in games. The problem is that no AI in this regard will ever be perfect. But I am aware of some issues, however, I have not been able to properly reprocude these... so, this will be looked at again for OOTP 11

Fair enough, thanks for the reply, Marcus.

Again, thanks to you as well, SteveP.

[gnomez]

Here's the kicker... defensive replacement Mike Jacobs - at shortstop.