Reactions to the release + the next steps...

[StyxNCa]

The only thing I have noticed so far is once again all my minor leaguers disappeared after the import from OOTP9. They were still on the team but until I moved them to another level through the minor league report thing in the manager section and then back to where they were I couldn't see them in the teams roster section, lineup/pitching staff page or whatever. Thankfully I don't have fully stocked teams.

[lornejf]

Originally Posted by lornejf

I run a Fictional Baseball League with 28 teams. After converting my OOTP9 files (which took about 5 hours), I continued to play my current season. On August 1, players were "rescouted" and new ratings were posted on their cards. I noticed that about half the pitchers had HUGE drops in their Movement rating, a lot of them ending up at a rating of 1. One pitcher I noticed had a Movement potential of 73, and after reevaluation had a movement potential of 3.

Help!! My pitchers are going to get killed.

Thanks.

On further investigation, I found the following:

Checking the Player Development Report on the Manager Home Page showed the huge drop in the ratings for the Movement for a lot of the pitchers.
Checking the Profile of each player does NOT show that difference.
Checking the roster using Pitching Ratings and Pitching Potential does NOT show the drop in ratings.
Looking at the Scouting Report for that individual DOES show the huge drop in ratings.
I assume the numbers on the Player's profile page are used to play the game, so I guess the performance will not be affected. It is only the ratings on the Scouting Reports page that are wrong.

Thanks for a great game. It is not only the best baseball simulation I have found, but it is almost totally problem free.

[nyy26wc]

Originally Posted by endgame

Did you want an advance copy of the game, or did the http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...Pitching+Model preview not serve you well?

I had not seen that preview until now. I had given up on the OOTP 10 forum when it had turned into a "the game hasn't been released today" forum.

If I had seen it, I wouldn't have noticed from that preview that it meant that out of 30 teams in the majors, about 26 of them were going to have 1-2 inning relievers turned into starters and had starters moved to the bullpen.

I thought I had an idea on how to deal with this problem. I thought that, if I could export the rosters from OOTP 9 to a spreadsheet and then do a mass edit of relievers whose endurance was too high and starters whose endurance was too low, that could work. But, when I did the export, I see that there is no column for a distinction between starters & relievers.

[thbroman]

Markus, on the question of expanding the market for OOTP, I can only say that you are doing everything right to continue along the path as far as this kind of game will take you. You'll never capture the large market of arcade-style players, who want to stand in there and "swing" at pitches,* but for the rest of the crowd you've done well. I especially want to compliment you and the gang on the improved PbP and news reports. That's exactly what a text-based sim like this needs.
(That and a richer historical & financial universe for minor leagues, but I've been pleading for that for three or four versions, at least!)




*- IMHO this is the essential difference with Football Manager (aside from the huge difference in potnetial market, of course). I think there are fewer players who seek to experiecne soccer as an arcade experience, probably because soccer doesn't lend itself to the "mano-a-mano" faceoff that baseball offers in the matchup between pitcher and batter. It's really the sport most suited to arcade-style play for that reason.

[Nutlaw]

Originally Posted by nyy26wc

That issue was caused by your company's own roster set that came with OOTP 9.

....

I don't work for OOTP Developments. My company has nothing to do with this game. I don't have anything to do with roster sets.

In OOTP 9, any pitcher with an endurance greater than 25 and less than 50 on the 1-100 scale could start with some effectiveness. Now, the AI was certainly less willing to start these players than it is in OOTP 10, but their ability was always there.

The problem with preventing anyone with an endurance less than 50 from starting is that many users did use these borderline pitchers as starters in OOTP 9. It would be more devastating to take away a pitcher's ability to start during conversion than promote it.

I'm sorry that this has apparently ruined your day.

[Nutlaw]

Originally Posted by nyy26wc

I thought I had an idea on how to deal with this problem. I thought that, if I could export the rosters from OOTP 9 to a spreadsheet and then do a mass edit of relievers whose endurance was too high and starters whose endurance was too low, that could work. But, when I did the export, I see that there is no column for a distinction between starters & relievers.

No, you're on the right track. Any pure starters from OOTP 9 will have an endurance above 100 on the 1-200 sacle. Any relievers from OOTP 9 who were borderline starters (and convert as such) will have an endurance between 50 and 100 on the 1-200 scale. If you take that latter group and edit it to have endurance less than 50, that will do the trick.

If you want some of your borderline starters from OOTP 9 to convert as starters and some as relievers, then I think that you'd be stuck editing them one by one.

[nyy26wc]

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

No, you're on the right track. Any pure starters from OOTP 9 will have an endurance above 100 on the 1-200 sacle. Any relievers from OOTP 9 who were borderline starters (and convert as such) will have an endurance between 50 and 100 on the 1-200 scale. If you take that latter group and edit it to have endurance less than 50, that will do the trick.

If you want some of your borderline starters from OOTP 9 to convert as starters and some as relievers, then I think that you'd be stuck editing them one by one.

My problem is the idea that pitchers who pitch just over 1 inning per outing are borderline starters. I can assure you that, if anyone tried telling their major league managers that the pitchers that OOTP are labeling as borderling starters could be used as starters, you'd be laughed out of the room.

[JoeGoNets]

Indeed, I'm with nyy 26wc. Let us take a pitcher who is below 40 on a 100 point scale in stamina potential. If he is a really good pitcher, you don't necessarily want him starting. You want him pitching in high-leverage situations (close games, late). If he is a really bad pitcher, you don't want him starting, either. You hand him the mop. If he is an average pitcher, you could probably find an average guy with more stamina to start, and use this average, low stamina fellow in middle relief.

How would the AI be hampered if it refuses to try to convert low stamina potential guys to starters? I don't get it.

So again, my suggestion, if a pitcher's stamina potential is below 40 out of 100, the AI doesn't even try to convert him to a starter. Play with the "40" if you like, but I can't see why this would do harm, and I think it would ameliorate the present issue.

[Curtis]

Originally Posted by JoeGoNets

How would the AI be hampered if it refuses to try to convert low stamina potential guys to starters? I don't get it.

So again, my suggestion, if a pitcher's stamina potential is below 40 out of 100, the AI doesn't even try to convert him to a starter. Play with the "40" if you like, but I can't see why this would do harm, and I think it would ameliorate the present issue.

The issue Nutlaw was speaking about was that many PLAYERS of Version 9 habitually try out their pitchers with 25 or 26 out of 100 endurance as starters, and the game allowed them to be starters, albeit of the five inning variety. The AI was hampered because it didn't usually try this, so in Version 10 it now tries.

I think a problem we're having is that 'endurance' in OotPB is a badly defined term. While it does have some impact on how many pitches a guy is good for, the game uses it more to determine how rapidly a pitcher bounces back from an appearance.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by nyy26wc

My problem is the idea that pitchers who pitch just over 1 inning per outing are borderline starters. I can assure you that, if anyone tried telling their major league managers that the pitchers that OOTP are labeling as borderling starters could be used as starters, you'd be laughed out of the room.

In OOTP 9, any pitcher with an endurance of 25 or better (out of 100) could give you at least 90+ pitches as a starter before being tired. It makes no difference if he threw 1 inning per appearance in the past. How he performs in the starter role is a different subject, but the stamina was there for 5-6 innings. So in this regard, there was no change between OOTP 9 and OOTP 10, the conversion process makes sure that these player, when used as starters, perform similar than they would have in OOTP 9. Now, the AI has changed, but it is now smarter and uses its available pitchers better.

[andymac]

Yea, the problem here seems to be some users pre-conceived notions about pitchers and not the way the AI is handling them. There are lots of "types" of pitchers who can be mediocre-to-crappy 5th starters. OOTP10 now reflects this much better than OOTP9 did.

[JoeGoNets]

Thanks guys. I am relatively new and didn't absorb that a guy with endurance 25 could reasonably be expected to start and go 5 innings. But doesn't this mean that the real problem here is that guys like "K-Rod" Francisco Rodriguez should not be rated at endurance 25?

[andymac]

Originally Posted by JoeGoNets

Thanks guys. I am relatively new and didn't absorb that a guy with endurance 25 could reasonably be expected to start and go 5 innings. But doesn't this mean that the real problem here is that guys like "K-Rod" Francisco Rodriguez should not be rated at endurance 25?

Not necessarily. Check K-Rod's minor league history out. He has 42 starts under his belt. Although, it looks like in the OOTPX roster set he comes in with a 22 stamina, so he won't be starting in that set. When importing from OOTP9, you are going to have to expect there to be things that don't align themselves with your preconceived notions, especially with the created roster sets because those players were created under a different pitching system and those roster makers did not have knowledge of the OOTPX conversion system.

[nyy26wc]

Originally Posted by andymac

Yea, the problem here seems to be some users pre-conceived notions about pitchers and not the way the AI is handling them. There are lots of "types" of pitchers who can be mediocre-to-crappy 5th starters. OOTP10 now reflects this much better than OOTP9 did.

The pre-conceived notion comes from the fact that these are pitchers with a major league track record that shows they only pitch an inning a game.

I really see no difference between this and OOTP deciding that a player who steals a base a year is capable of being a speedster and therefore treating as such.

[andymac]

Have you been paying attention to the Cardinals at all recently? Such as guys named Looper & Wellemeyer? There is a difference between physical ability and usage. Almost every single pitcher has the capability to throw 90+ pitches, the question should be whether they can do so effectively.

You think of Rodriguez as a relief pitcher, all OOTP can do is look at how the roster makers created him in 9 and translate that to X.

[nyy26wc]

Originally Posted by andymac

You think of Rodriguez as a relief pitcher, all OOTP can do is look at how the roster makers created him in 9 and translate that to X.

No, that is not all it can do. A better system would be for, during the conversion process, for OOTP to look at IP/game and take these numerous relievers and adjust their endurance to have them treated as relievers in OOTP.

[andymac]

Originally Posted by nyy26wc

No, that is not all it can do. A better system would be for, during the conversion process, for OOTP to look at IP/game and take these numerous relievers and adjust their endurance to have them treated as relievers in OOTP.

I disagree. A pitchers usage does not translate directly into "how long he can throw". Relievers are not relievers because they can only throw for 1 or 2 innings. This is the entire reason for the redesign of the pitching model in the first place.

[robc]

Originally Posted by andymac

I disagree. A pitchers usage does not translate directly into "how long he can throw". Relievers are not relievers because they can only throw for 1 or 2 innings. This is the entire reason for the redesign of the pitching model in the first place.

That sums it up pretty good. Also, just because I guy is playing shortstop doesn't mean he can't play 2nd base (and sometimes visa versa). How a player is used doesn't define his ability. His ability defines how he should be used.

[Killing Time]

Originally Posted by andymac

Relievers are not relievers because they can only throw for 1 or 2 innings. This is the entire reason for the redesign of the pitching model in the first place.

True. If this was the case then no pitcher would or could ever go from being a starter to a reliever or vice versa and yet this has happened fairly routinely in MLB history.

[nyy26wc]

Originally Posted by Killing Time

True. If this was the case then no pitcher would or could ever go from being a starter to a reliever or vice versa and yet this has happened fairly routinely in MLB history.

Having just about 20% of the rotation spots in the majors consisting of pitchers who were entrenched career relievers is hardly something that has happened fairly routintely in history.