To many career ending injuries?

[mochuck]

Even with settings set to classic, seems to be a lot of long term injuries..

However.. thats why there are low and very low settings for injuries that I

can experiment around with. On a humorous note.. I don't remember what

part of his body was hurt.. but the Jays lost Roy Halladay for 2 weeks due to

a shark attack.. Yes grandma.. I said shark attack lol

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

A completely shattered hand can definitely last half a year until you can play again.

At least. You'd be surprised how slow shattered - as opposed to just broken - bones heal.

[silvam14]

What I can't understand is why people are going nuclear over injuries. I mean, injuries are one of the most customizable things in the game. You don't like the frequency? there are at least 3 or 4 options to choose from. Still not happy? Why not tinker the the injury file yourself?

Not to mention the game has only been out for a day. I think the beta testers should release some of their data for the people who have only played through a small number of games.

I could see making a big stink about something hard-coded that only Markus can tinker with, but the game is literally in your hands now. When it comes to injuries, if you're not happy with them, take it upon yourself to fix it. It couldn't take more time to fix than waiting for someone else to do it.

cheers!

[Malleus Dei]

Sil's right. If you don't like the injury frequency, just dial it down one notch and see how well you like that. No point going ballistic over it. You have the power.

[Giants44]

Originally Posted by silvam14

What I can't understand is why people are going nuclear over injuries. I mean, injuries are one of the most customizable things in the game. You don't like the frequency? there are at least 3 or 4 options to choose from. Still not happy? Why not tinker the the injury file yourself?

Not to mention the game has only been out for a day. I think the beta testers should release some of their data for the people who have only played through a small number of games.

I could see making a big stink about something hard-coded that only Markus can tinker with, but the game is literally in your hands now. When it comes to injuries, if you're not happy with them, take it upon yourself to fix it. It couldn't take more time to fix than waiting for someone else to do it.

cheers!

my thoughts exactly as I was reading this thread.

I do think (acknowledging the small sample size) that the injuries seem too high compared to my normal following of baseball - however since it is a few simple clicks to change it, I will simply knock it down a notch and see how that works.

don't ever forget OOTP's greatest strength is that Markus truly does make the game customizable and each of us can tweak the game to our own personal liking. There is not one other game I have ever played which allowed for so much tweaking to get it exactly the way I wanted it.

[kagnew35]

Somethng not mentioned so far in this thread is that we now do have updates on injuries, ie, SS Jed Lowrie has experienced a set back in his rehab, will be out 4 days longer for example.

[Another Mike D]

But then what he will make 30 posts in 8 hours over?!21!?? I keep hearing all this talk about simmers vs. game players, but the end result of either is accurate stats and injuries. This requires something we call in my business...sample size. You can't just look at 20 games, see a bunch of injuries and cry that the game injures too many people. If you are only interested in playing out games, then set the injuries to low and/or very low, and have a blast.

[satchel]

Originally Posted by bababui

Markus is getting too technical without hiring the professionals to make it work IMO.

There is no high source of objective baseball knowledge—it's subjective, all the way up. Five different real-life major-league pitching coaches will have five different theoretical models by which they analyze and describe the craft. They'll have five different names and slight variations of technique for what's effectively the same pitch.

Originally Posted by silvam14

What I can't understand is why people are going nuclear over injuries.

Because when their favorite player gets injured, they feel like their diaper is soiled, so they call in their mommy to check—but it really isn't, so they get spankings. This makes them very upset, so they come to this board and let us listen to them cry.

[PAtricapillus]

Hamate bone injuries have been relatively common, Big Papi, Pedroia, Wily Mo Pena, Scott Sizemore, Tony Pena Jr, Zimmerman, Kory Casto, etc.

The hamate is technically in the wrist and it does take a couple months to recover.

Kevin Brown's 'shattered hand' was the result from punching a wall. I don't remember any player shattering a hand on the field. Kevin Brown could still have pitched with better protection for his glove hand, he wasn't out for 6 months.

Braves - Omar Infante is out 2 months with a broken hand.

Tulowitzki went to have his hand checked out yesterday, third of June.

I don't think you'd see a 6 month time period for the majority of hand injuries that you see in the game.

Bone injuries in the wrist are commonly 2 months, Jed Lowrie is another example...

Ligament issues in the wrist might require a more prolonged period of rest and rehab, see Nomar with the Sox.


As for Career Enders, off the top of my head, I can't recall any big time everyday-players like Jose Reyes having a CEI. These days, with medical technology as it is and with the lure of big money, most players will find a way back on the field, the exception being fringe players, older players and pitchers, though even Matt Clement was looking to get back in the game.

Multiple Career Enders to big names is very unusual, I'd have to agree with the Original Poster there.

What would qualify as career enders these days anyway? Catastrophic accidents off the field, a la Corey Lidle or Munson. Bo Jackson's degenerative hip. Dravecky's cancer.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by POKeefe

That's a completely moronic statement, no offense. A 2-seam fastball is generally 5mph less than a 4 seam and a 2 seam is usually a fastball with a strong break (often called a splitter or sinker). Derek Lowe's "Sinker" was a 2-seam fastball. A guy will often throw a 95mph 4-seam and a 91mph 2 seam. It's used just like any other pitch is to keep a batter off balance. Some guys don't even bother throwing the 4-seam. I know I could throw my 2-seam almost as hard as my 4-seam, but it had such break that it was almost pointless for me to throw my 4-seam when I used to pitch. I went 2-seam, straight change, curveball. Only threw a 4-seam with 2 strikes if I wanted a rising fastball out of the zone. A ratings system for that might be 3-6-6-6. Lowe and Masterson also work primarily off the 2-seam.

Its nice that you come in halfway through the thread and start using the word moronic. My point was there numerous ways to throw a fastball. Greg Maddux could change grips, change pressure points, and change speeds on his fastball. Does he need his 10+ different fastball ratings(4 seam, 2 seam, less pressure with right finger 4 seam, less pressure with left finger 4 seam, less pressure with right finger 2 seem, less pressure with left finger 2 see, 3/4 delivery 2 seem, 3/4 delivery 4 seem)? Point being if a pitcher throws a good fastball(no matter if its 2,4 seem) and its rated correctly does it really matter what it is called? In any case this is the wrong thread for this anyway not sure how this topic ended up here.

[jar2574]

Originally Posted by PAtricapillus

As for Career Enders, off the top of my head, I can't recall any big time everyday-players like Jose Reyes having a CEI. These days, with medical technology as it is and with the lure of big money, most players will find a way back on the field, the exception being fringe players, older players and pitchers, though even Matt Clement was looking to get back in the game.

Multiple Career Enders to big names is very unusual, I'd have to agree with the Original Poster there.

What would qualify as career enders these days anyway? Catastrophic accidents off the field, a la Corey Lidle or Munson. Bo Jackson's degenerative hip. Dravecky's cancer.

Quick google search for modern career enders: Schilling's shoulder injury, reported February 2008 as a career ender. Belle's arthritic hip. Back injury for Eric Chavez reported May 2009 could end his career.

As to the number of career enders: Tons and tons of highly rates prospects never make it to the majors because of injuries. Lots of young guys suffer what turn out to be career enders, but which are never reported as such, because reports about their rehab just turn into silence once the rehab is never completed.

Even with famous guys, we don't know for sure about the return about Smoltz and Duchscherer. Guys like that, you expect to make it back to the majors, but sometimes they have setbacks. If they don't make it back, you'll see news about both of them. But what about #3 and #4 starters in the same boat who are trying to make it back? Might not hear much about their rehab struggles.

I would agree that because most OOTP injuries occur in games, and do not focus on degenerative medical conditions, career ending injuries can be described in an unrealistic fashion. But I'm not sure that too many career ending injuries occur -- the descriptions might just leave something to be desired.

[injury log]

I think there are a few more CEIs in real baseball than some may think. Matt Mantei and Brian Anderson both retired due to injury during the same Spring Training last year. Juan Encarnacion's fractured eye socket in '07 was surely career ending. Adam Loewen retired from pitching due to injury last year. Mike Matheny's post-concussion syndrome in '06 was career ending, and Corey Koskie's post-concussion syndrome in the same season could (debatably, since he attempted to come back, though he hasn't played a professional game since) be described similarly. This season Hong-Chih Kuo is saying he will retire if he needs another surgery. Finally, some players' careers, and sometimes lives, are ended off-field - Josh Hancock and Nick Adenhart, for example, and it's unclear whether Juan Lara will again pitch professionally. Of course, it's debatable whether OOTP should even attempt to model such events.

Those are examples only from the last three years, and those are only the ones I can remember off-hand. Still, it's possible to customize the injuries.txt file to reduce or eliminate the number of CEIs. The format of injuries.txt has changed this year, but I'll try to produce a version of the file at some point that will lower or eliminate CEIs in case people want such a file. You can quite easily do this yourself; the injuries.txt file is a simple text document, and contains a column called 'CEI boolean'. If the numbers in that column are all set to '0', you should not see any CEIs in your game. Of course you should always save a backup of the file before making any changes in case of a mistake.

[CBL-Commish]

Originally Posted by injury log

I think there are a few more CEIs in real baseball than some may think. Matt Mantei and Brian Anderson both retired due to injury during the same Spring Training last year. Juan Encarnacion's fractured eye socket in '07 was surely career ending. Adam Loewen retired from pitching due to injury last year. Mike Matheny's post-concussion syndrome in '06 was career ending, and Corey Koskie's post-concussion syndrome in the same season could (debatably, since he attempted to come back, though he hasn't played a professional game since) be described similarly. This season Hong-Chih Kuo is saying he will retire if he needs another surgery. Finally, some players' careers, and sometimes lives, are ended off-field - Josh Hancock and Nick Adenhart, for example, and it's unclear whether Juan Lara will again pitch professionally. Of course, it's debatable whether OOTP should even attempt to model such events.

Those are examples only from the last three years, and those are only the ones I can remember off-hand. Still, it's possible to customize the injuries.txt file to reduce or eliminate the number of CEIs. The format of injuries.txt has changed this year, but I'll try to produce a version of the file at some point that will lower or eliminate CEIs in case people want such a file. You can quite easily do this yourself; the injuries.txt file is a simple text document, and contains a column called 'CEI boolean'. If the numbers in that column are all set to '0', you should not see any CEIs in your game. Of course you should always save a backup of the file before making any changes in case of a mistake.

I think some of the complaints have to do with the way injuries are presented. In real life most injuries are very fuzzy things, with windows of effect instead of hard dates. A pulled hammy might be described the next day as something that the player will try to be back from next week, but might stretch out another 2-3 weeks. CEI's are often things that play out over a long time, with failed surgeries and rehabs eventually making four or six or 12 month injuries career enders.

OOTP treats all of these injuries as something that's definitive on day one. I think OOTP X has added setbacks, and that's a step in the right direction.

OOTP 11 could go a long way towards silencing the critics by adding a more comprehensive "fog of war" to the way injuries are handled.

[Giants44]

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

I think some of the complaints have to do with the way injuries are presented. In real life most injuries are very fuzzy things, with windows of effect instead of hard dates. A pulled hammy might be described the next day as something that the player will try to be back from next week, but might stretch out another 2-3 weeks. CEI's are often things that play out over a long time, with failed surgeries and rehabs eventually making four or six or 12 month injuries career enders.

OOTP treats all of these injuries as something that's definitive on day one. I think OOTP X has added setbacks, and that's a step in the right direction.

OOTP 11 could go a long way towards silencing the critics by adding a more comprehensive "fog of war" to the way injuries are handled.

very good suggestion.

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

I think some of the complaints have to do with the way injuries are presented. In real life most injuries are very fuzzy things, with windows of effect instead of hard dates. A pulled hammy might be described the next day as something that the player will try to be back from next week, but might stretch out another 2-3 weeks. CEI's are often things that play out over a long time, with failed surgeries and rehabs eventually making four or six or 12 month injuries career enders.

OOTP treats all of these injuries as something that's definitive on day one. I think OOTP X has added setbacks, and that's a step in the right direction.

OOTP 11 could go a long way towards silencing the critics by adding a more comprehensive "fog of war" to the way injuries are handled.

This makes sense. I think a good idea would be to add a team physician and have him update you on injuries from time to time.

For example, a guy pulls his hammy and the physician immediately recommends he be out for 2-3 weeks. Fine, put him on the 15 day DL. The he could update you on his status a week later saying he either needs more time, is on track, or is healing quicker than originally thought.

This could be cool

[CLCondit2002]

Originally Posted by silvam14

This makes sense. I think a good idea would be to add a team physician and have him update you on injuries from time to time.

For example, a guy pulls his hammy and the physician immediately recommends he be out for 2-3 weeks. Fine, put him on the 15 day DL. The he could update you on his status a week later saying he either needs more time, is on track, or is healing quicker than originally thought.

This could be cool

I like this idea myself... would make it more realistic to me. Plus it would be another added feature in the game and something each team would have. And then of course, depending on how good/bad your team physician/trainer is, the more accurate he is.

I mean, a lot of times with a hamstring for example, guys come back after a 3-4 week layoff, but they are not the same player for a few months after that even.

So maybe have the trainer say "he will not be fully recovered for 3 months, however, he can return within 3 weeks at 80%".

Then, he has the opportunity to get back on the field sooner if you want him to, and of course, then a greater risk of him re-aggravating the injury until he is fully healed?

Just random thoughts coming to me as I type this

[PAtricapillus]

Originally Posted by jar2574

Quick google search for modern career enders: Schilling's shoulder injury, reported February 2008 as a career ender. Belle's arthritic hip. Back injury for Eric Chavez reported May 2009 could end his career.

As to the number of career enders: Tons and tons of highly rates prospects never make it to the majors because of injuries. Lots of young guys suffer what turn out to be career enders, but which are never reported as such, because reports about their rehab just turn into silence once the rehab is never completed.

Even with famous guys, we don't know for sure about the return about Smoltz and Duchscherer. Guys like that, you expect to make it back to the majors, but sometimes they have setbacks. If they don't make it back, you'll see news about both of them. But what about #3 and #4 starters in the same boat who are trying to make it back? Might not hear much about their rehab struggles.

I would agree that because most OOTP injuries occur in games, and do not focus on degenerative medical conditions, career ending injuries can be described in an unrealistic fashion. But I'm not sure that too many career ending injuries occur -- the descriptions might just leave something to be desired.

My main point is that a young superstar, like a Jose Reyes, would be giving up the chance to make a lot of money given the advancement in surgical and medical tech and know-how.

Older players facing a CEI, e.g. Smoltz, Schilling, Glavine, McGwire would be much more common, and even still, Smoltz looks like he could be back in some capacity. Matt Clement was eyeing a comeback, Keith Foulke was pitching in Independent Leagues. The money is too tempting.

The Original Poster's complaint, or observation, to me, seems within reason. CEIs to jose reyes, jj hardy, ryan braun

A CEI to a young superstar-type player would have to be serious: Death, Illness, Concussions.

[rwd59]

I know 2 seasons is a small sample size but it seems to me at first glance there are too many long term injuries. I have played 2 seasons and had 6 long term injuries in season one and 9 in season 2. All of these are Major League injuries. By long term I mean 3 months or more. All this with injury settings on VERY LOW. I will reserve total judgement till I have played more seasons but as of now I would hate to see what it would be like on any of the higher settings. Also, is there still an individual player injury rating? I had one guy alone with 3 long term injuries in 2 seasons.

[Theonlystd]

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

I think some of the complaints have to do with the way injuries are presented. In real life most injuries are very fuzzy things, with windows of effect instead of hard dates. A pulled hammy might be described the next day as something that the player will try to be back from next week, but might stretch out another 2-3 weeks. CEI's are often things that play out over a long time, with failed surgeries and rehabs eventually making four or six or 12 month injuries career enders.

OOTP treats all of these injuries as something that's definitive on day one. I think OOTP X has added setbacks, and that's a step in the right direction.

OOTP 11 could go a long way towards silencing the critics by adding a more comprehensive "fog of war" to the way injuries are handled.

I have seen a CEI injury to do a set back on a major arm injury for a pitcher .. Which is kind of like what your talking about.. Prolly just needs to be how most CEI are handled instead of a serious injury causing it right off

[johnnybourbon]

Originally Posted by CLCondit2002

I like this idea myself... would make it more realistic to me. Plus it would be another added feature in the game and something each team would have. And then of course, depending on how good/bad your team physician/trainer is, the more accurate he is.

I mean, a lot of times with a hamstring for example, guys come back after a 3-4 week layoff, but they are not the same player for a few months after that even.

So maybe have the trainer say "he will not be fully recovered for 3 months, however, he can return within 3 weeks at 80%".

Then, he has the opportunity to get back on the field sooner if you want him to, and of course, then a greater risk of him re-aggravating the injury until he is fully healed?

Just random thoughts coming to me as I type this

I've been curious about something like this for quite a while. Injuries in OOTP are much more dynamic now than they have ever been, I think this is the most logical step...even with long-term CEI-type ones...to have injuries have a base # of out days, with the manager/gm option of putting the player back in (with risk of course), which extends the injury's duration on the day-to-day side.