So, how many of you impatient pre order folks...

[toddgregory]

I think the point you are missing is that to some of us OOTP really falls down in the area of customer service.

I am not saying that Marcus owes us anything, but read my post. It says "the seller has yet to fulfill his portion of the contract." Has that been done yet?? I think not...

i understand a quality product takes time...but I also understand the legitimate concern that buyers, especially new ones, have when one purchases in February and then hears very little til May.

Its not about what Marcus owes us...(its not even about Marcus) Its about what strategies are going to drive sales and encourage repeat sales. Excessive delays and long silences dont do that.

There is a HUGE difference between fulfilling ones obilgations and doing excellent work. (I dont think I would eat at a restaurant where the chef only fulfills his obligations.)

Regardless of what business you are in REGULAR AND HONEST COMMUNICATION is the key to happy customers and good service. And happy customers and good service means higher sales which in turns should mean the continuation of the OOTP product.

"Sometimes encouragement is a kick in the pants with a soft shoe."

"The difference between a pat on the back and a kick in the pants is a matter of inches."

So consider my posts as an effort to encourage better communication and a quicker release date.

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by spitfire

I must be missing something. When pre-ordering began, Markus said the game would come out in the spring of 2009.

You're not the one missing things.

It is amazing how people will totally ignore fact.

If the people were not happy with the "Spring of 2009" timeline they should not have prepaid and gone on with their life, assuming they have one, rather than come on here griping about something they have created in their own mind as a breech of contract. They mention this "contract", which I don't recall signing, but let's pretend we did. There was nothing in that "contract" that said daily or weekly updates would be forthcoming.

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by toddgregory

I am not saying that Marcus owes us anything, but read my post. It says "the seller has yet to fulfill his portion of the contract." Has that been done yet?? I think not...

Exactly what contract are you talking about? I never signed a contract.

Originally Posted by toddgregory

Its not about what Marcus owes us...(its not even about Marcus) Its about what strategies are going to drive sales and encourage repeat sales. Excessive delays and long silences dont do that.

There is a HUGE difference between fulfilling ones obilgations and doing excellent work. (I dont think I would eat at a restaurant where the chef only fulfills his obligations.)

Regardless of what business you are in REGULAR AND HONEST COMMUNICATION is the key to happy customers and good service. And happy customers and good service means higher sales which in turns should mean the continuation of the OOTP product.

While what you say is true as far as communication, it isn't your business, it's his and has been for 10 years or so and that is how he chooses to run it. So just don't buy it next time around. Problem solved.

[RobWarwick]

Originally Posted by StyxNCa

You're not the one missing things.

It is amazing how people will totally ignore fact.

If the people were not happy with the "Spring of 2009" timeline they should not have prepaid and gone on with their life, assuming they have one, rather than come on here griping about something they have created in their own mind as a breech of contract. They mention this "contract", which I don't recall signing, but let's pretend we did. There was nothing in that "contract" that said daily or weekly updates would be forthcoming.

i find the stubbornness of some of the community bordering on insanity. Of course Todd was not talking about an actual contract. He was talking about an implied contract between buyer and seller.

If you pay for a product, the seller now has an obligation to you. According to your logic, as long as Marcus releases the game before June 21st, he has met his obligation, no one has a right to bitch. And technically speaking, you are right. He releases on June 20th, he has met his obligation.

But, you would like to think for future implied contracts (read: someone is going to buy the product next year), simply meeting his obligation for a June 20th release date is not going to cut it. He should be working extra hard to exceed his obligation and meet/beat expectation, no?

I just find it hard to believe that people are on here arguing that releasing this game in June is just fine. I mean seriously....you must be able to see how this would annoy some buyers, no???

[toddgregory]

Originally Posted by StyxNCa

You're not the one missing things.

It is amazing how people will totally ignore fact.

If the people were not happy with the "Spring of 2009" timeline they should not have prepaid and gone on with their life, assuming they have one, rather than come on here griping about something they have created in their own mind as a breech of contract. They mention this "contract", which I don't recall signing, but let's pretend we did. There was nothing in that "contract" that said daily or weekly updates would be forthcoming.

Please come do business with me. Ill sell you a house or car and not let you have it "til its ready!" haha

some of us are making HUGE leaps of logic. I am not accusing anyone of breach of contract. I am simply pointing out these facts:

#1-any purchase creates an IMPLIED contract between the buyer and seller. An IMPLIED contract is rarely written or at times even expressed verbally. (think of raising your finger to the bartender when ordering a second beer)

#2-I dont think OOTP is doing anything wrong or attempting to mislead anyone. I just think they are struggling in the area of customer service.

#3-In this day and age of computer scams, is it really prudent to promise a product, collect money electronically, and then cease communication? I think not. Again as a OOTP "veteran" (god I hate that term) I am confident that OOTP 10 will be delivered. What confidence can we give to the first time buyer who has little experience with OOTP? Certainly not some of the comments written here...("PAtience grasshopper" is a popular one that is both patronizing and demeaning)

#4-Successful business anticipate the needs, concerns, and perceptions (correct or otherwise) of customers and address them. While that may require more work on the part of the company, many feel it is an effective tool that drives sales and encourages repeat business (WOW how many ties have I typed that)

#5-A business near me has what they call "the boomerang theory." They try to do whatever they can to ensure repeat business. I think that is WAY SMART and think that at times that OOTP, these boards, and their members should subscribe to a similar theory.

#6-Regardless of whether you agree with my point of view or not, it is a legitimate one shared by several who post here and probably by others who do not. I think we want the same things...I just that we disagree on the most effective way to get them.

I'm out

[bosunmate]

I would like to know how old these guys are because they sound about 12. Now before you jump me I'm not naming names, you know who you are.

[toddgregory]

Originally Posted by StyxNCa

Exactly what contract are you talking about? I never signed a contract.



While what you say is true as far as communication, it isn't your business, it's his and has been for 10 years or so and that is how he chooses to run it. So just don't buy it next time around. Problem solved.

That might be the dumbest thing I ever heard... If I was OOTP I wouldnt sell to you because that comment is driving away business. If I dont buy next time around and others dont either, OOTP 10 could very well be the FINAL version.

I would think that this community board would want to build membership and INCREASE the interest in OOTP so that Marcus is forced to create a new version based upon customer demand. Yet, again it seems that one of our "All Stars" thinks differently.. Why?

[toddgregory]

If I am 12 and can intelligently discuss the parameters of an implied contract. HOORAY for me! haha

[RobWarwick]

Originally Posted by toddgregory

If I am 12 and can intelligently discuss the parameters of an implied contract. HOORAY for me! haha

lol....you must be one of dem smart geeky kids. you know, the ones we used to beat up when we was in school before we discovered OOTP 1.

[bosunmate]

Originally Posted by toddgregory

If I am 12 and can intelligently discuss the parameters of an implied contract. HOORAY for me! haha

I don't recall anyone saying you were intelligent.

[toddgregory]

Didnt you ever hear, "be nice to nerds you'll work for one someday." ??

But alas that is not me, former college athlete and current small business owner.

I will never apologize for standing up for the rights of the consumer.

"The customer is always right cuz they have the money!" haha

[toddgregory]

Originally Posted by bosunmate

I don't recall anyone saying you were intelligent.

Hey now, be nice...with 148 posts I still might be considered a newbie and need to be treated well! haha

Again we misread, I didnt say i was intelligent I said that I could DISCUSS the terms of an Implied contract Intelligently... there is a slight difference between the two statements.. (Reading is comprehension)

And btw-I dont need anyone to tell me I am intelligent... My MENSA card does that for me daily...

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by toddgregory

That might be the dumbest thing I ever heard... If I was OOTP I wouldnt sell to you because that comment is driving away business. If I dont buy next time around and others dont either, OOTP 10 could very well be the FINAL version.

I would think that this community board would want to build membership and INCREASE the interest in OOTP so that Marcus is forced to create a new version based upon customer demand. Yet, again it seems that one of our "All Stars" thinks differently.. Why?

Again, he has been around for 10 years or so doing it this way that entire time except for the version when he teamed up with SI. He is still here.

And again, there was no promise of updates and no promise of a specific release date, so if people are being driven away it is their own doing for assuming things that were dreamed up in their own mind. That is not Markus' fault.

Now, with the release information that has come out today, exactly why are you going on about this? Seems he killed both the requests for an update and an announcement for a release date all at once.

[never_ends]

Originally Posted by toddgregory

That might be the dumbest thing I ever heard... If I was OOTP I wouldnt sell to you because that comment is driving away business. If I dont buy next time around and others dont either, OOTP 10 could very well be the FINAL version.

I would think that this community board would want to build membership and INCREASE the interest in OOTP so that Marcus is forced to create a new version based upon customer demand. Yet, again it seems that one of our "All Stars" thinks differently.. Why?

hmmm... I hope I'm not called dumb for asking... but I'll bite anyway, it's ok, go ahead if you must

Just exactly what do you want them to do to "build membership and INCREASE the interest in OOTP so that Marcus is forced to create a new version based upon customer demand" ????

Is releasing the game the day you want it released the only issue or are there other problems???? I'm asking because you make it sound like the whole thing is a complete disaster somehow.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by StyxNCa

Now, with the release information that has come out today, exactly why are you going on about this?

To win of course. Isn't that what every internet argument boils down to for motive?

And thank goodness that tehre is a release date. Now we can switch from these types of threads to "this gme suks I wnt my mon3y bck!" type threads that seem to come up every year for summer (although for all our sakes, I'm hoping this year is when the exception is delivered.

[never_ends]

wait! I forgot the (to prevent post deletion under new policy)

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

Now we can switch from these types of threads to "this gme suks I wnt my mon3y bck!" type threads that seem to come up every year for summer (although for all our sakes, I'm hoping this year is when the exception is delivered.

It is amazing how they seem to start, like, 5 minutes after the release too!

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by never_ends

wait! I forgot the (to prevent post deletion under new policy)

What's funny is that so many of the new posters (some of whom have said they have been playing the game for years) are talking the way that we are being told not to talk, but there is no policy about that.

I would like to commend you on the way you are conducting yourself. You are doing the boards proud!

[toddgregory]

Originally Posted by StyxNCa

Again, he has been around for 10 years or so doing it this way that entire time except for the version when he teamed up with SI. He is still here.

And again, there was no promise of updates and no promise of a specific release date, so if people are being driven away it is their own doing for assuming things that were dreamed up in their own mind. That is not Markus' fault.

Now, with the release information that has come out today, exactly why are you going on about this? Seems he killed both the requests for an update and an announcement for a release date all at once.

I think its great! And I have no problem with Marcus... Code Away. My basic beef is that members of this board are telling others not to complain. Why? Its their right... And as some have mentioned it creates interest in the game...

My other complaint is hearing members tell people, "Well dont buy it then." that hurts all of us as OOTP is (as are any other consumer products) dependent on sales.

Lets welcome newcomers and discuss opposing viewpoints in a fun and healthy manner. The last thing we want is this board appearing to have a heirarchy and an appearance of arrogance among veteran posters. (this was addressed by the Newbie sticky awhile back)

I want OOTP to thrive. In order to do that it needs to continue to grow and develop. In order to grow and develop, OOTP must identify and address its shortcomings.

As a consumer I feel strongly that I have not only a right but also a responsibility to point out weakness in hopes they will be addressed. Especially if I have a passion for a product as many of us do for OOTP

Its constructive, its healthy, and its necessary.
Thank goodness that OOTP provides a forum to do this!

[RobWarwick]

Originally Posted by never_ends

hmmm... I hope I'm not called dumb for asking... but I'll bite anyway, it's ok, go ahead if you must

Just exactly what do you want them to do to "build membership and INCREASE the interest in OOTP so that Marcus is forced to create a new version based upon customer demand" ????

Is releasing the game the day you want it released the only issue or are there other problems???? I'm asking because you make it sound like the whole thing is a complete disaster somehow.

the point that is trying to be made, but unable to be received by some is that for the good of the game, and ultimately, the good of the fans (YOU!), it behooves the game devs to try and do more than just meet their obligation, and instead always be trying to meet/exceed customer expectations.

If you do that, then you are going to build on your customer base.

it's simple business 101, and Im positive most of you understand this, but for some reason just too stubborn to admit it.