Can I set up a League like a soccer league?

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by TribeFanInNC

I think the snarkiness comes from the fact that this comes up every year. There is a sentiment that creating things like this takes away from fixing AI problems and adding things more useful things like proper arbitration, AI updates, and in-game widgets that do make it a better baseball game.

No, there is nothing inherently wrong with a promotion/relegation setup if that is what you want. Though I don't think the casual baseball fan cares about sending the Pirates to the NY-Penn League.

yup

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by TribeFanInNC

I think the snarkiness comes from the fact that this comes up every year. There is a sentiment that creating things like this takes away from fixing AI problems and adding things more useful things like proper arbitration, AI updates, and in-game widgets that do make it a better baseball game.

This is correct. If memory serves there was also a poll on this once, and it turned out that there were only a very few people who wanted this added.

My own view is that since the game doesn't even simulate baseball leagues correctly yet, this sort of non-baseball trivia really needs to wait for about OOTP 25 or so.

Besides, this game really isn't soccer. Please, people, don't try to make it into soccer. You'll just hurt the baseball game if you do.

[andymac]

Uh, oh. MD is begging again, game is going to hell.

[Bobbuttons]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Besides, this game really isn't soccer. Please, people, don't try to make it into soccer. You'll just hurt the baseball game if you do.

As has already been addressed, simply adding a promotion/relegation system option to the game does not make it soccer, as there are a number of international baseball leagues that use that system. To claim that this would "soccer up" the game is foolish at best at completely stupid at worst. While I doubt it will be instituted, it would be something I would like to have the option to use in an occasional league. Those that don't like simply don't have to use that setup. Simple as that. I never use the split season format playoff format, but I didn't whine when it was included as an option. Frankly, in a sim like this, the more customization options, the better.

[treedom]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Besides, this game really isn't soccer. Please, people, don't try to make it into soccer. You'll just hurt the baseball game if you do.

Admitedly I haven't seen the OOTP codebase, but I still feel that I can say with complete certainty that implementing this feature has a zero chance of causing the game to simulate players kicking balls across a pitch rather than throwing, hitting and catching balls on a diamond.

[brado09]

Wow, didn't mean to start a fire. To the comment about soccer, I have a 2007 and 2009 Football Manager game going as well. So thanks, I do play soccer.

As the years go by, I hear more and more people complain throughout all sports, that a playoff or tournament makes the regular season less important. While I don't view that as a black and white discussion, I certainly understand the frustration when one team beats another team repeatedly during the regular season, only to lose in the playoffs. You avoid this by removing any post season games and make everyone play a balanced scheduled. If that happens, how could you not say the team with the best record really is the best team? If you've ever followed soccer, you'd know how hard the bottom teams try at the end of the season to avoid relegation, and you'd know how excited the teams are that get promoted.

I wouldn't expect this feature to be a high priority as I think gameplay and experience should always be #1. As long as there are customization options available. I just couldn't figure out how to set it up.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by brado09

Wow, didn't mean to start a fire. To the comment about soccer, I have a 2007 and 2009 Football Manager game going as well. So thanks, I do play soccer.

As the years go by, I hear more and more people complain throughout all sports, that a playoff or tournament makes the regular season less important. While I don't view that as a black and white discussion, I certainly understand the frustration when one team beats another team repeatedly during the regular season, only to lose in the playoffs. You avoid this by removing any post season games and make everyone play a balanced scheduled. If that happens, how could you not say the team with the best record really is the best team? If you've ever followed soccer, you'd know how hard the bottom teams try at the end of the season to avoid relegation, and you'd know how excited the teams are that get promoted.

I wouldn't expect this feature to be a high priority as I think gameplay and experience should always be #1. As long as there are customization options available. I just couldn't figure out how to set it up.

While I wholeheartedly agree with you, you'll never see that type of thing in North America for one simple reason - $$$$$$$$$.

Play-offs = more revenue.

Bottom line is exactly that - "Line" the owners and players pockets with $$$$$.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Sdpm100

There's a more glaring need for the Japanese/Korean tied game rule...

Actually, the KBO (Korean Baseball Organization) stopped allowing tie games after the 2007 season. Games now are either won or lost. However, ties are still permitted in the Japanese leagues and in the CPBL in Taiwan.

(Strictly speaking, MLB allows tie games too. It's just that in their case any game ending in a tie is replayed in full at a later date and the tie game is not listed as part of the team's record. However, all player statistics in that tie game still count towards the season totals.)

Originally Posted by BruceM

While I wholeheartedly agree with you, you'll never see that type of thing in North America for one simple reason - $$$$$$$$$.

Play-offs = more revenue.

European football gets around this via the Champions League. It's not just the first place clubs in the various national leagues which get into the Champions League, but also some second, third, and fourth place clubs as well. And the clubs in the competition can make some very good income the further they go. In effect, the Champions League is the European version of North American post-season playoffs.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by treedom

Admitedly I haven't seen the OOTP codebase, but I still feel that I can say with complete certainty that implementing this feature has a zero chance of causing the game to simulate players kicking balls across a pitch rather than throwing, hitting and catching balls on a diamond.

Adding soccer league features to a baseball simulation when baseball league features still aren't fully implemented is foolish and counterproductive.

[andymac]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Adding soccer league features to a baseball simulation when baseball league features still aren't fully implemented is foolish and counterproductive.

You can say this about a lot of stuff in OOTP. For instance, supporting historical play has largely hampered the ability to recreate the modern day game. OOTP is a game that is meant to be played many different ways, calling any new features counterproductive just because you won't use them is narrow minded.

[Sdpm100]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Actually, the KBO (Korean Baseball Organization) stopped allowing tie games after the 2007 season. Games now are either won or lost.

However, ties are still permitted in the Japanese leagues and in the CPBL in Taiwan.

(Strictly speaking, MLB allows tie games too. It's just that in their case any game ending in a tie is replayed in full at a later date and the tie game is not listed as part of the team's record. However, all player statistics in that tie game still count towards the season totals.)

Oh, I didn't know they stopped it in Korea. Thanks for correcting me. I'd forgotten about the CPBL had it. I think both Italy and the Netherlands might allow for ties over here in Europe. Could be making that up though.
I did read the other day about the new playoff system in the *** where the higher seeded team gets a one game advantage at the start of the series.
I'm sure you're already on top of that one, but I didn't know it was there.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Besides, this game really isn't soccer. Please, people, don't try to make it into soccer. You'll just hurt the baseball game if you do.

No, it's about adding in options which allow the user even more "what if" scenarios in which to craft their baseball universes. Promotion/relegation is one of those what ifs. Another might be what if MLB used an NBA-or NFL-style free agency system with restricted and unrestricted free agents, the Bird rule, or franchise players?

It's really a question of prioritizing such what ifs. I personally would opt first for recreating all the present rules affecting North American baseball, then get all the past rules done, then move on to incorporating the rules of baseball as played elsewhere in the world, and then lastly start including the more interesting options from other sports and sports leagues.

It's really just due to historical quirks and chance that baseball has developed the way it has. Change a few things in its past, and it could have very easily had a very different league structure look.

[fantom1979]

I don't really have a problem with this feature, if you are going to have international leagues, it would be nice to be able to use international rules. This feature should still take a backseat to core issues, but I don't think it is a crime if it makes it into the game.

[JustinM]

Originally Posted by andymac

You can say this about a lot of stuff in OOTP. For instance, supporting historical play has largely hampered the ability to recreate the modern day game. OOTP is a game that is meant to be played many different ways, calling any new features counterproductive just because you won't use them is narrow minded.

This is ignoring the plain fact that it's not a "soccer league feature" any more than wins and losses are. It's used in baseball, as others have said, and it's used in hockey. Those are just what I know of without looking it up, but I'm sure it's more widespread than that.

Remember that this is not a MLB sim, it's a baseball sim. If you can have players that don't exist on teams that don't exist (presumably also in cities that don't exist), then what's wrong with adding a feature that actually does exist in some professional baseball leagues?

[Malleus Dei]

Now we're back to the Ghana leagues/women leagues/hobbit leagues argument.

Relegation is not part of real baseball, just like Ghana, women and hobbits aren't. And there are features of real baseball that OOTP does not address yet. Properly simulating actual American baseball has to have a far higher priority than simulating nonsensical whimsies.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by fantom1979

This feature should still take a backseat to core issues, but I don't think it is a crime if it makes it into the game.

Good point. After the real core issues are all fixed there will be time for whimsy. Like around OOTP 25 or so.

[andymac]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Properly simulating actual American baseball has to have a far higher priority than simulating nonsensical whimsies.

In your opinion. Others feel that customization should be the highest priority. Markus caters to both. That's just the way it is.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by andymac

Others feel that customization should be the highest priority.

And they are dead wrong. Better MLB simulation = more sales. Ghana/women/hobbits nonsense = fewer sales.

There are a passionate few of you here that have lobbied hard to get this game shifted toward whimsy instead of real baseball. It has hurt the game badly. Look at the popularity of the MLB-focused Baseball Mogul, which as a simulation is only a small fraction of what OOTP is. Not being focused on real baseball has hurt OOTP, and the more you push for whimsy, the less mainstream the game becomes. Left to yourself you guys would steer the game to be a totally customizable whimsyball game that had absolutely zero mainstream appeal. And the resulting lack of sales would kill the game for good.

And that's just the way it is.

[brado09]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

And they are dead wrong. Better MLB simulation = more sales. Ghana/women/hobbits nonsense = fewer sales.

There are a passionate few of you here that have lobbied hard to get this game shifted toward whimsy instead of real baseball. It has hurt the game badly. Look at the popularity of the MLB-focused Baseball Mogul, which as a simulation is only a small fraction of what OOTP is. Not being focused on real baseball has hurt OOTP, and the more you push for whimsy, the less mainstream the game becomes. Left to yourself you guys would steer the game to be a totally customizable whimsyball game that had absolutely zero mainstream appeal. And the resulting lack of sales would kill the game for good.

And that's just the way it is.

Might as well lockdown this thread then. If Baseball Mogul is a fraction of OOTP, then why doesn't OOTP sell better? Do you think it could possibly be non-game feature related? For me (and I'm sure I'm not the only one), I never bought OOTP until the actual MLB rosters were included with the game upon purchase. I know there were people who spent plenty of time creating their own rosters to import into the game. But trying to figure out which one is the best, and then importing, etc., it became a chore. And guess what? They have MLB rosters now, combine that with the historical leagues and the customization options, and that gives the customer a pretty damn good reason to buy OOTP instead of Baseball Mogul (or Diamond Mind, which is the only other baseball simulation I've played)

Besides, even in a 'soccer' scenario league, the game being played/simulated is still baseball. Whimsyball sounds like a game my kid would make up.

I'd actually like to know what your definition of "real baseball" is. Based on your responses, I guess you must only play a real MLB season starting from the year in which the game is released

[silvam14]

As a fictional player, I would welcome a relegation/promotion addition (it doesn't have to be spun into calling it "turning the game into soccer").

With that said, there are plenty of issues with the game that guys like MD have spelled out that should be fixed first since they also would positively affect my fictional play as well as historical/MLB games

I would love to play MLB games, but I find it too much work to keep the rosters like real life (at least for the first season, cuz that's how I would do it) As it is, the first day you sim, Lineups, minors etc get screwed royally.