How bout' we release everyone on the roster? Eh? - Page 3

akw4572 · 04-21-2003, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sixfour210
I'm amazed at how you could say you would have sat Cal Ripken in 2000 if you were he manager of the Oriole that year. The fans wanted to see Cal Ripken everyday and since they weren't in any playoff chase, there was nothing wrong with this.

Most great players are still in the game because of the fans. Have you ever thought about playing a HOF player for a crappy team in order to raise attendance? I think that's a great idea. When your team is losing, at least you can gain some extra money from playing a veteran player. Now if Roger Clemens were to fall apart for the Yankees this year, he would probably be released.

I can see your point too......but a LOT of people would argue the orioles might be a better team now if they would have developed players, instead of hanging on to veterans like ripken. It's the old notion of fan wants.........and team needs.

A. Barry Larkin complains the reds won't resign him, and demands a trade.

B. The Reds trade Larkin to the Mets, and he refuses to go.

C. The Reds resign larkin to a 3 year 27 million dollar deal, like all the "fans" wanted.

D. The Reds cannot compete, because 1/6 of their budget is tied up in a veteran who doesn't play, and when he does, he's not very good.

See the other side???

GForce22 · 04-21-2003, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Henry
As Holyroller suggested, a lot of varibles can cause this - and as he also said - not a bug. When GForce and Rolen were creating these rosters, everyone wanted ALL the minor leaguers.

Rolen was not involved in this set. These rosters are my doing. Just a clarification. Rolen and I worked together for last year's set.

GH

Henry · 04-21-2003, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sixfour210
After years and years of seeing greatness out of a player for so long, you wouldn't just release the guy because all of the sudden his batting average dropped 60 points.

Ok - here the situation...

Bill Owens has had a .300 carreer and is now 36. His ratings begin to drop, and halfway through the season, he's hitting .250

A kid (24) at AAA is tearing up the league with a .320 BA and is rated at 3 stars.

In the world you want to create, the AI keeps the kid at AAA and continues to play Owens. The real player (yourself) loves this becasue it's to your advantage - and you very likely wouldn't do the same to gain an advantage on the AI.

bad idea.... not becasue the idea itself is bad - but because it opens up the possibiltiy to take advantages of the AI.

The game HAS to play the best available...

Henry

Henry · 04-21-2003, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GForce22
Rolen was not involved in this set. These rosters are my doing. Just a clarification. Rolen and I worked together for last year's set.

GH

Ah.... sorry GF. Yours and ROlen's name were joined at the hip for so long I fell into a habit

Henry

sixfour210 · 04-21-2003, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by akw4572
I can see your point too......but a LOT of people would argue the orioles might be a better team now if they would have developed players, instead of hanging on to veterans like ripken. It's the old notion of fan wants.........and team needs.

A. Barry Larkin complains the reds won't resign him, and demands a trade.

B. The Reds trade Larkin to the Mets, and he refuses to go.

C. The Reds resign larkin to a 3 year 27 million dollar deal, like all the "fans" wanted.

D. The Reds cannot compete, because 1/6 of their budget is tied up in a veteran who doesn't play, and when he does, he's not very good.

See the other side???

I definately see the other side. I do with every discussion I enter. But Larkin isn't worth it in my opinion and isn't a HOF type player IMO. But guys like Ripken should never be released. It's just the way the business of baseball is carried out.

I also think it is very smart to play declining HOFers even if it is at the expense of developing talent. Fan support is key, even if you have all the talent in the world. Look at Montreal and their problems, they will never be able to recover unless the relocate. However, Baltimore will becasue they have a great fan base.

Henry · 04-21-2003, 11:44 AM

PS: maybe all we need is a few more voluntary retirements

Henry

GForce22 · 04-21-2003, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Henry
Ah.... sorry GF. Yours and ROlen's name were joined at the hip for so long I fell into a habit

Henry

LOL!! No need to apologize. Just a clarification!

GH

sixfour210 · 04-21-2003, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Henry
Ok - here the situation...

Bill Owens has had a .300 carreer and is now 36. His ratings begin to drop, and halfway through the season, he's hitting .250

A kid (24) at AAA is tearing up the league with a .320 BA and is rated at 3 stars.

In the world you want to create, the AI keeps the kid at AAA and continues to play Owens. The real player (yourself) loves this becasue it's to your advantage - and you very likely wouldn't do the same to gain an advantage on the AI.

bad idea.... not becasue the idea itself is bad - but because it opens up the possibiltiy to take advantages of the AI.

The game HAS to play the best available...

Henry

But what actually happens in real life is that they may call up the player and keep the veteran, who is often only signed for one year. They may ease the rookie into the lineup often while the veteran comes off the bench. The problem with ootp is that they sign guys to 3-4 year contracts at the age of 37. But in real life, guys are done with the team after that year and are free to retire respectively without being released. See what I'm saying?

Bears5122 · 04-21-2003, 11:52 AM

I wouldn't mind seeing guys retire once they hit rock bottom in the ratings.

As for the impact rating I brought up, I think it would be used as an exception and only maybe like 10-15 players in the league would actually really be effected by it. I don't think it should just be used for roster management, but for attendance figures and fan interest. As this game gets more in-depth with the finances and general runnng of teams I think this is important. Star players bring fans into the stadium and having a future hall of famer like Ripken on your team although he is well past his prime would sure bring in fans. So keeping a superstar who is past his prime wouldn't always be a bad thing as you'd keep your fans happy and attendance up.

Bears5122 · 04-21-2003, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Henry
Ok - here the situation...

Bill Owens has had a .300 carreer and is now 36. His ratings begin to drop, and halfway through the season, he's hitting .250

A kid (24) at AAA is tearing up the league with a .320 BA and is rated at 3 stars.

In the world you want to create, the AI keeps the kid at AAA and continues to play Owens. The real player (yourself) loves this becasue it's to your advantage - and you very likely wouldn't do the same to gain an advantage on the AI.

bad idea.... not becasue the idea itself is bad - but because it opens up the possibiltiy to take advantages of the AI.

The game HAS to play the best available...

Henry

Good point, but Bill Owens may be a fan favorite in the town. He may be a future hall of famer and add 5000 people a night to the stadium. That's a good amount of money over the year and that money might be able to buy them a great starting pitcher next year in the free agent market.

Henry · 04-21-2003, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bears5122
Good point, but Bill Owens may be a fan favorite in the town. He may be a future hall of famer and add 5000 people a night to the stadium. That's a good amount of money over the year and that money might be able to buy them a great starting pitcher next year in the free agent market.

I don't disagree, but as the game stand now (meaning without all the coding that would have to be added to support such an idea) this would be a long term enhancement - not a "fix".

Just as a side bar - we have to get everyone (all of us) to understand the difference between a "fix" and an "enhancement". If the change (like this one to incorporate veteran status - support for added attendence, a possible veteran ratings variable, significant testing to make sure it doesn't imbalance anything else, etc.) is going to take a major effort, it has to be between major versions... not a v5.10 to v5.2 upgrade.

Henry

x94blair3 · 04-21-2003, 12:35 PM

I realize this is way off topic, but I couldn't resist. I just had to reward myself for staying on topic and avoiding the bait time after time. I won't post AGAIN about it, so it's best to not bother flaming me as you won't get a response.

ASB sucks. At least in terms of a statement like "I turn to ASB for realism". The reviews over and over again said the same thing from all corners of the net. "Gameplay is sorely lacking and needs to be strongly upgraded as others will catch them in franchise mode. In the meanwhile this game is amazingly deep for franchise mode players." IMO that does not equal "super realistic" or whatever got thrown out here earlier in the thread. That instead equals feature bloating where they ignored a lot of the basic principles of baseball that needed fixing and instead added a bunch of "cool" stuff that was brainstormed in development.

Don't get me wrong. I give them a ton of credit for pushing the boundries with franchise mode. I really can't think of any other sports franchise mode that has pushed the envelope like ASB this year. With that sort of effort they're going to force HH's, MVP's, and WSB's hand to upgrade. Unfortunately it's the typical consumer quandry. There always seems to be one huge tradeoff with these baseball games.

If anyone wanted button mashing realism the obvious answer from most of the same voices on the net would be HH. Sure graphics lag behind the others, gameplay at times has problems (like all of them), but inning 1-9 there isn't a better representation of an overall game of baseball. Problem with it is their porting from the console jacked up the PC interface and their franchise mode sucks...Fortunately there's a dedicated MOD community that resolves as many of the issues as possible but it's still not the "best solution". That leaves me HH for on the field gameplay mood and OOTP for running a franchise. Not perfect, but it works.

Anyway, I just had to throw that out there. You can like what you want to like, play what you want to like, and say what you want to like. However, I can't disagree with the person that said it seems like 9 out of 10 times you're complaining about something else that's not right and calling someone out for questioning you. The problem isn't that you're providing feedback Bears, it's the way that you do it. And if you don't understand the difference between the best way to handle it and yours you're not liable to start any time soon. And saying that Markus and the Moderators don't "have a problem with it" doesn't prove anything. That just shows they've been doing this long enough to know that trying to show you any way different is a futile effort, so why bother. I apparently haven't learned that lesson.

-Nick

TwinMonster · 04-21-2003, 12:36 PM

I kind of like the vetern "enhancement" idea. Perhaps it could be one of those option things like finances, trading, injuries, etc. That way those who might like it can use it, and those who don't can just skip it. Definately a down-the-road enhancement.

Bears5122 · 04-21-2003, 12:49 PM

I don't think I ever mentioned anything about Markus or the developers doing something wrong. I just pointed out some flaws that were annoying. I found them annoying because they seem to be worse then previous versions of the game. I think the developers do a good job on the game and it's a lot of fun.

The only complaint I had was toward those who can't accept criticism of the game. It's not just my posts but anyone who has any criticism can usually find 5 fanboys piping in how they don't know what they are talking about and how the game is completely perfect. Usually when someone pulls up a valid point I see Steve say something good like he'll look into it or he'll let Markus know. That is great and I love how they are so open to their customers suggestions and feedback. The board here has a reputation for being a fanboy board and it sucks when people can't criticize the game without some smart ass response.

TLBOrioles · 04-21-2003, 12:54 PM

If only we had started Ryan Minor in 2000, things would be different...lol.

Acting like anyone on the Orioles is clogging up the depth chart (let alone Ripken) is patently ridiculous. The Orioles have little to no minor league talent, and it's been that way for years.

x94blair3 · 04-21-2003, 01:07 PM

I wasn't sure what to expect in response. I have no problem with what you said. I also appreciate the open door policy here to listen for feedback and it's one of the benefits of a small software house.

-Nick

No-mahhh · 04-21-2003, 01:29 PM

Going back to the original point of this thread, isn't it possible that some of the releases that look objectionable are partly the result of the game's inherent scouting variability? Some of those released might have "real" ratings that are better than the minor leaguers that replaced them, but the team's scout wrongly perceives them as worse.

Even if we assume the GF roster is rated accurately to reflect the real world, we can never "know" these real ratings within the game because of the fallibility of the scouts. Although this makes judgement of GF's ratings problematic, having read about all the effort he put into this, I applaud him nonetheless.

John C · 04-21-2003, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Behind Red Doors
Exactly.

I am having a blast with ASB for the xbox. . It's very realistic, and has so many new additional features in this years game. IMO it's the best baseball game out (OOTP included) - although WSB is right at the top too. OOTP is a very good game, but before you go and judge console gaming before you've even played any this year - I would think twice.

I've played ASB, WSB (own it), and MVP. I haven't played WSB since a week after I bought it...I'm too busy playing my online leagues and the solo league I just created using a league I used to play in.

Personally, I don't think they're as much fun. If you want to see if you can take nine guys and give them good averages by hitting everything for them, great. But don't use the "don't judge things before you've played it" line, because some of us *have*.

Also, ASB's realistic with their 2B and SS that act as OF at the same time..."Flyball to CF...Durham (the second baseman) races back, and he has it!" I saw that too many times that there was no way I could play that game and enjoy it.

-John

Behind Red Doors · 04-21-2003, 01:57 PM

Everyone has opinions Blair. I think ASB is really realstic when it comes down to stats, and franchise mode. I also love the gameplay. Some may, some may not.

Bears5122 · 04-21-2003, 02:22 PM

I like ASB. Text based sims are fun but sometimes I like having control over the games and stuff.

04-21-2003, 12:35 PM	#52
x94blair3 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 99	I realize this is way off topic, but I couldn't resist. I just had to reward myself for staying on topic and avoiding the bait time after time. I won't post AGAIN about it, so it's best to not bother flaming me as you won't get a response. ASB sucks. At least in terms of a statement like "I turn to ASB for realism". The reviews over and over again said the same thing from all corners of the net. "Gameplay is sorely lacking and needs to be strongly upgraded as others will catch them in franchise mode. In the meanwhile this game is amazingly deep for franchise mode players." IMO that does not equal "super realistic" or whatever got thrown out here earlier in the thread. That instead equals feature bloating where they ignored a lot of the basic principles of baseball that needed fixing and instead added a bunch of "cool" stuff that was brainstormed in development. Don't get me wrong. I give them a ton of credit for pushing the boundries with franchise mode. I really can't think of any other sports franchise mode that has pushed the envelope like ASB this year. With that sort of effort they're going to force HH's, MVP's, and WSB's hand to upgrade. Unfortunately it's the typical consumer quandry. There always seems to be one huge tradeoff with these baseball games. If anyone wanted button mashing realism the obvious answer from most of the same voices on the net would be HH. Sure graphics lag behind the others, gameplay at times has problems (like all of them), but inning 1-9 there isn't a better representation of an overall game of baseball. Problem with it is their porting from the console jacked up the PC interface and their franchise mode sucks...Fortunately there's a dedicated MOD community that resolves as many of the issues as possible but it's still not the "best solution". That leaves me HH for on the field gameplay mood and OOTP for running a franchise. Not perfect, but it works. Anyway, I just had to throw that out there. You can like what you want to like, play what you want to like, and say what you want to like. However, I can't disagree with the person that said it seems like 9 out of 10 times you're complaining about something else that's not right and calling someone out for questioning you. The problem isn't that you're providing feedback Bears, it's the way that you do it. And if you don't understand the difference between the best way to handle it and yours you're not liable to start any time soon. And saying that Markus and the Moderators don't "have a problem with it" doesn't prove anything. That just shows they've been doing this long enough to know that trying to show you any way different is a futile effort, so why bother. I apparently haven't learned that lesson. -Nick __________________ Pudge, R. White, Guillen, Vina, J. Johnson, Urbina....maybe Illitch remembered he owns a baseball team. Either that or he expects a looooonnnnggg NHL holdout.

04-21-2003, 01:07 PM	#56
x94blair3 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 99	I wasn't sure what to expect in response. I have no problem with what you said. I also appreciate the open door policy here to listen for feedback and it's one of the benefits of a small software house. -Nick __________________ Pudge, R. White, Guillen, Vina, J. Johnson, Urbina....maybe Illitch remembered he owns a baseball team. Either that or he expects a looooonnnnggg NHL holdout.

04-21-2003, 01:29 PM	#57
No-mahhh Bat Boy Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 8	Scouting Going back to the original point of this thread, isn't it possible that some of the releases that look objectionable are partly the result of the game's inherent scouting variability? Some of those released might have "real" ratings that are better than the minor leaguers that replaced them, but the team's scout wrongly perceives them as worse. Even if we assume the GF roster is rated accurately to reflect the real world, we can never "know" these real ratings within the game because of the fallibility of the scouts. Although this makes judgement of GF's ratings problematic, having read about all the effort he put into this, I applaud him nonetheless.

04-21-2003, 01:57 PM	#59
Behind Red Doors Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kentucky Posts: 73	Everyone has opinions Blair. I think ASB is really realstic when it comes down to stats, and franchise mode. I also love the gameplay. Some may, some may not. __________________ <A HREF=http://www.redszone.com>Yeah. Well. Ya know that's just like, uh, your opinion, man. <IMG SRC=http://thechemicalelement.com/heros.jpg BORDER=0></A>

04-21-2003, 11:44 AM	#46
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	PS: maybe all we need is a few more voluntary retirements Henry

04-21-2003, 11:52 AM	#49
Bears5122 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 850	I wouldn't mind seeing guys retire once they hit rock bottom in the ratings. As for the impact rating I brought up, I think it would be used as an exception and only maybe like 10-15 players in the league would actually really be effected by it. I don't think it should just be used for roster management, but for attendance figures and fan interest. As this game gets more in-depth with the finances and general runnng of teams I think this is important. Star players bring fans into the stadium and having a future hall of famer like Ripken on your team although he is well past his prime would sure bring in fans. So keeping a superstar who is past his prime wouldn't always be a bad thing as you'd keep your fans happy and attendance up.

04-21-2003, 12:36 PM	#53
TwinMonster Major Leagues Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Minnepolis Posts: 325	I kind of like the vetern "enhancement" idea. Perhaps it could be one of those option things like finances, trading, injuries, etc. That way those who might like it can use it, and those who don't can just skip it. Definately a down-the-road enhancement.

04-21-2003, 12:49 PM	#54
Bears5122 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 850	I don't think I ever mentioned anything about Markus or the developers doing something wrong. I just pointed out some flaws that were annoying. I found them annoying because they seem to be worse then previous versions of the game. I think the developers do a good job on the game and it's a lot of fun. The only complaint I had was toward those who can't accept criticism of the game. It's not just my posts but anyone who has any criticism can usually find 5 fanboys piping in how they don't know what they are talking about and how the game is completely perfect. Usually when someone pulls up a valid point I see Steve say something good like he'll look into it or he'll let Markus know. That is great and I love how they are so open to their customers suggestions and feedback. The board here has a reputation for being a fanboy board and it sucks when people can't criticize the game without some smart ass response.

04-21-2003, 12:54 PM	#55
TLBOrioles Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 188	If only we had started Ryan Minor in 2000, things would be different...lol. Acting like anyone on the Orioles is clogging up the depth chart (let alone Ripken) is patently ridiculous. The Orioles have little to no minor league talent, and it's been that way for years.

04-21-2003, 02:22 PM	#60
Bears5122 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 850	I like ASB. Text based sims are fun but sometimes I like having control over the games and stuff.