Fundamental flaws... your chance to vent! - Page 14

Bears5122 · 02-09-2009, 12:06 AM

Make it so that we can run a MLB style simulation. No fancy underhand toss or women's leagues, no 12 team playoffs with byes, just a functioning MLB-esque league. Yes it can be setup right now, but there are too many problems with development to allow it. Also make it so MLB rosters can be developed for the game. It just amazes me that the game has shifted so far away from people who want to play it like it is in real life.

Other issues:

Development - Not sure if it was RonCo or Skydog that helped with this, but they seem to have a real solid grasp on baseball development. I'd hit them up or at least go through some of their data and try and simulate that. Development seems to be a bit flawed.

Injuries - This has really hurt the game for me over the years. When a player gets hurt, he shouldn't lose all his ability. Just because pulls a hamstring and is out 2 months doesn't mean they should lose half their power. Sure their development could pause, but a top prospect shouldn't fall into trash because he missed a few weeks with an injury.

Markus Heinsohn · 02-09-2009, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonCo

I don't overlook that aspect at all. I see all those nuances as things that may affect how rapidly a player moves toward his peak--in other words, all those things can alter ratings. In fact, if I were designing the game I would have a "stable" rating for actual skills and a "current effective rating" that takes into account all those things. My pure guess is that this is what is entailed with the entire player personality code. But if I turn those off, then yes, it should be talent + opportunity + some weird intangibles decides all with regard to rating progression over a player's age. And on the whole, those intangibles should even out such that a review of a couple thousand players leads you to the truth.

However, none of that matters, since my proposal is not about rating progression, but is instead about peak _talents_. And I stand by my statement that a player receiving bad stats should not, for that reason, be more subject to talent hits.

It is a bad design.

This is about the 7,953rd time I've made this argument (only slightly exaggerating), however, and I assume it will be as successful as the other 7,952.

OK, I changed it... let's see how it works out

... 7,953 is a good number.

Markus Heinsohn · 02-09-2009, 04:30 AM

OK, an update.

The following things have been fixed in the meantime:
- FA compensation: There is now a supplemental round in the draft, and the compensation rules follow real life.
- Arbitration: You now submit contract amounts, and the arbitrator decides. If no offer is made, the player becomes a FA. Super-2 players are supported as well. Also, 'normal' potential free agents have to be offered arbitration as well if you want to get a compensation pick, following current MLB rules.
- The AI is now more agressive claiming players from waivers.
- Pitching prospects are valued higher now
- Improved player creation code (more utility players and position ratings make more sense now)
- Improved player development (removed player performance in the calculation if a talent change happens)
- Players are now more likely to test free agency (less extensions = better FA class)
- Improved injuries... more short-term, less long-term (I'll look into the CEI later)

That's it for now... I'll continue to keep you posted on the progress

Carplos · 02-09-2009, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Super-2 players are supported as well.

How will this work with the different lengths of arbitration you can set?

Pronkytonk · 02-09-2009, 04:37 AM

Thanks a lot, Markus ! Great work as usual - IMHO you did a great job in getting the really important issues out of the bulk of reported things.

Bad thing is that it makes me feel that OOTP 10 is way too far away from now - just can't wait to try it out ...

Tony M · 02-09-2009, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

OK, an update.
- FA compensation: There is now a supplemental round in the draft, and the compensation rules follow real life.

Does this mean that draft rounds can be different lengths or is this supplemental round generated on the fly by looking at the free agent signings?

Markus Heinsohn · 02-09-2009, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony M

Does this mean that draft rounds can be different lengths or is this supplemental round generated on the fly by looking at the free agent signings?

It's created on the fly...

Markus Heinsohn · 02-09-2009, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carplos

How will this work with the different lengths of arbitration you can set?

It's minimum service years for arbitration minus 1. The default setting here is 3 years, hence 3 -1 = super 2

Killebrew · 02-09-2009, 04:58 AM

Depth Charts
The AI's depth chart selection seems somewhat unfinished in OOTP9 in comparison to some older versions of OOTP.

Some examples:
- Depth chart backup players X and Y both slated to play the same position every 2 days. This happens all the time in the game. I have no idea what the AI decides when games are simmed, maybe the first guy listed gets every second day.
- The AI selects defensive replacements for the Designated hitter. That has no impact in the game (I hope) but it kinda looks bad

.
- This is subjective but when you create depth charts based on lineups the user selects it always seems like the AI favors a weakly rated player for a lot of backup play in the depth chart. It's possible that AI considers this player a starter, but if that is so then the AI is using a hidden rating scale from the actual ratings the user can see. I could provide a lot of examples if that helped, but basically I am questioning the AI's player valuation in it's lineup/depth chart selections, and I believe you could find good examples every time you ran the AI auto-lineup selection.

Also, when you remove a defensive replacement the player is also removed from the depth chart at that position, so it always required you to reselect the player and manually put him back in the depth chart.

Markus Heinsohn · 02-09-2009, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killebrew

- Depth chart backup players X and Y both slated to play the same position every 2 days. This happens all the time in the game. I have no idea what the AI decides when games are simmed, maybe the first guy listed gets every second day.

It would be ABCABCABC...

Killebrew · 02-09-2009, 05:06 AM

Game Admin (Running as a Commissioner) :
- Can league file and report settings be saved in the league file? I bet this issue causes a lot of screw ups in online leagues where more than one Commish runs a sim (or when a commish has to run a sim from a different PC).
- When retiring a player can we get a confirmation pop-up ("Are you sure..." etc.)? The "RETIRE PLAYER" right click option is very easy to select by accident when in Commissioner mode and it is a serious pain to reverse a mistake. I believe there is confirmation pop-up when selecting the delete player option.

Killebrew · 02-09-2009, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

It would be ABCABCABC...

That is not bad then, it means both depth chart players get regular play, but it still looks kinda funny no

?

Markus Heinsohn · 02-09-2009, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killebrew

That is not bad then, it means both depth chart players get regular play, but it still looks kinda funny no

?

Well, I look funny at times too, but I work as intended

Killebrew · 02-09-2009, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bears5122

Development - Not sure if it was RonCo or Skydog that helped with this, but they seem to have a real solid grasp on baseball development. I'd hit them up or at least go through some of their data and try and simulate that. Development seems to be a bit flawed.

Yes, RonCo and Skydog are both big jerkpants some times but I have a lot of confidence in their OOTP player development logic idea's.

Related player ratings note: Pitchers that throw hard all seem to have very low movement ratings. Maybe that is how it is intended but it does not make sense to me. Some slow junk-ball pitchers have a lot of movement on their pitches but hard throwers should have the potential for the greatest pitch movement, no? Maybe I am just misunderstanding what the movement talent is supposed to represent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bears5122

Injuries - This has really hurt the game for me over the years. When a player gets hurt, he shouldn't lose all his ability. Just because pulls a hamstring and is out 2 months doesn't mean they should lose half their power. Sure their development could pause, but a top prospect shouldn't fall into trash because he missed a few weeks with an injury.

The injury related dev hits seem too extreme now, to the point where serious dev loss after any injury is near predictable. Also, when a player loses 2+ points every single week for a year or more after an injury I wonder if it was better when the player just lost a lot of talent/ratings at once. These death from a thousand cuts injuries are physically painful to watch

.

spitfire · 02-09-2009, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

OK, an update.

The following things have been fixed in the meantime:
- FA compensation: There is now a supplemental round in the draft, and the compensation rules follow real life.
- Arbitration: You now submit contract amounts, and the arbitrator decides. If no offer is made, the player becomes a FA. Super-2 players are supported as well. Also, 'normal' potential free agents have to be offered arbitration as well if you want to get a compensation pick, following current MLB rules.
- The AI is now more agressive claiming players from waivers.
- Pitching prospects are valued higher now
- Improved player creation code (more utility players and position ratings make more sense now)
- Improved player development (removed player performance in the calculation if a talent change happens)
- Players are now more likely to test free agency (less extensions = better FA class)
- Improved injuries... more short-term, less long-term (I'll look into the CEI later)

That's it for now... I'll continue to keep you posted on the progress

Very pleased to see that a lot of off-field stuff is being addressed. Hope you'll be as aggressive with spiffing up the in-game AI.

Markus Heinsohn · 02-09-2009, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killebrew

The injury related dev hits seem too extreme now, to the point where serious dev loss after any injury is near predictable.

No, it works fine. The whole point of proper development is that the average talent level of a league stays the same over the years... and the game does that perfectly. Now the question is, how do I distribute the talent drops... random or injury-related? And I feel the current distribution is just fine... if I move more towards randomness, then we'll have a whole different discussion again

Markus Heinsohn · 02-09-2009, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killebrew

Related player ratings note: Pitchers that throw hard all seem to have very low movement ratings.

I don't see this... there is no negative correlation between the two in the code.

PhillieFever · 02-09-2009, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

OK, an update.

The following things have been fixed in the meantime:
- FA compensation: There is now a supplemental round in the draft, and the compensation rules follow real life.
- Arbitration: You now submit contract amounts, and the arbitrator decides. If no offer is made, the player becomes a FA. Super-2 players are supported as well. Also, 'normal' potential free agents have to be offered arbitration as well if you want to get a compensation pick, following current MLB rules.
- The AI is now more agressive claiming players from waivers.
- Pitching prospects are valued higher now
- Improved player creation code (more utility players and position ratings make more sense now)
- Improved player development (removed player performance in the calculation if a talent change happens)
- Players are now more likely to test free agency (less extensions = better FA class)
- Improved injuries... more short-term, less long-term (I'll look into the CEI later)

That's it for now... I'll continue to keep you posted on the progress

Fantastic! Thank You Markus,keep up the good work!

Corsairs · 02-09-2009, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

OK, an update.

The following things have been fixed in the meantime:
- FA compensation: There is now a supplemental round in the draft, and the compensation rules follow real life.
- Arbitration: You now submit contract amounts, and the arbitrator decides. If no offer is made, the player becomes a FA. Super-2 players are supported as well. Also, 'normal' potential free agents have to be offered arbitration as well if you want to get a compensation pick, following current MLB rules.
- The AI is now more agressive claiming players from waivers.
- Pitching prospects are valued higher now
- Improved player creation code (more utility players and position ratings make more sense now)
- Improved player development (removed player performance in the calculation if a talent change happens)
- Players are now more likely to test free agency (less extensions = better FA class)
- Improved injuries... more short-term, less long-term (I'll look into the CEI later)

That's it for now... I'll continue to keep you posted on the progress

I have nothing but good to say about these enhancements. Every one of them is very exciting. I'm particularly stoked about the addition of true arbitration hearings, as well as the enhancements to FA compensation and player development. Thank you very much for the update; I'll be passing it on to the league to whet their appetite!

As exciting as these new features are, I'm still crossing my fingers that the less "sexy" areas like bug fixes and database organization will be getting attention as well. Since this thread is all about our own little private crusades, I'll once again plug a couple of mine:

RonCo · 02-09-2009, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

OK, I changed it... let's see how it works out

... 7,953 is a good number.

Cool. Maybe we can work on reducing that number in the future.

02-09-2009, 04:30 AM	#263
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 24,805	OK, an update. The following things have been fixed in the meantime: - FA compensation: There is now a supplemental round in the draft, and the compensation rules follow real life. - Arbitration: You now submit contract amounts, and the arbitrator decides. If no offer is made, the player becomes a FA. Super-2 players are supported as well. Also, 'normal' potential free agents have to be offered arbitration as well if you want to get a compensation pick, following current MLB rules. - The AI is now more agressive claiming players from waivers. - Pitching prospects are valued higher now - Improved player creation code (more utility players and position ratings make more sense now) - Improved player development (removed player performance in the calculation if a talent change happens) - Players are now more likely to test free agency (less extensions = better FA class) - Improved injuries... more short-term, less long-term (I'll look into the CEI later) That's it for now... I'll continue to keep you posted on the progress Last edited by Markus Heinsohn; 02-09-2009 at 04:54 AM.

02-09-2009, 04:58 AM	#269
Killebrew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 3,326	Depth Charts The AI's depth chart selection seems somewhat unfinished in OOTP9 in comparison to some older versions of OOTP. Some examples: - Depth chart backup players X and Y both slated to play the same position every 2 days. This happens all the time in the game. I have no idea what the AI decides when games are simmed, maybe the first guy listed gets every second day. - The AI selects defensive replacements for the Designated hitter. That has no impact in the game (I hope) but it kinda looks bad. - This is subjective but when you create depth charts based on lineups the user selects it always seems like the AI favors a weakly rated player for a lot of backup play in the depth chart. It's possible that AI considers this player a starter, but if that is so then the AI is using a hidden rating scale from the actual ratings the user can see. I could provide a lot of examples if that helped, but basically I am questioning the AI's player valuation in it's lineup/depth chart selections, and I believe you could find good examples every time you ran the AI auto-lineup selection. Also, when you remove a defensive replacement the player is also removed from the depth chart at that position, so it always required you to reselect the player and manually put him back in the depth chart.

02-09-2009, 12:06 AM	#261
Bears5122 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 847	Make it so that we can run a MLB style simulation. No fancy underhand toss or women's leagues, no 12 team playoffs with byes, just a functioning MLB-esque league. Yes it can be setup right now, but there are too many problems with development to allow it. Also make it so MLB rosters can be developed for the game. It just amazes me that the game has shifted so far away from people who want to play it like it is in real life. Other issues: Development - Not sure if it was RonCo or Skydog that helped with this, but they seem to have a real solid grasp on baseball development. I'd hit them up or at least go through some of their data and try and simulate that. Development seems to be a bit flawed. Injuries - This has really hurt the game for me over the years. When a player gets hurt, he shouldn't lose all his ability. Just because pulls a hamstring and is out 2 months doesn't mean they should lose half their power. Sure their development could pause, but a top prospect shouldn't fall into trash because he missed a few weeks with an injury.

02-09-2009, 04:37 AM	#265
Pronkytonk Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Germany Posts: 168	Thanks a lot, Markus ! Great work as usual - IMHO you did a great job in getting the really important issues out of the bulk of reported things. Bad thing is that it makes me feel that OOTP 10 is way too far away from now - just can't wait to try it out ...

02-09-2009, 05:06 AM	#271
Killebrew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 3,326	Game Admin (Running as a Commissioner) : - Can league file and report settings be saved in the league file? I bet this issue causes a lot of screw ups in online leagues where more than one Commish runs a sim (or when a commish has to run a sim from a different PC). - When retiring a player can we get a confirmation pop-up ("Are you sure..." etc.)? The "RETIRE PLAYER" right click option is very easy to select by accident when in Commissioner mode and it is a serious pain to reverse a mistake. I believe there is confirmation pop-up when selecting the delete player option.