Fundamental flaws... your chance to vent!

[Nutlaw]

Originally Posted by MidKnight

Seconded; this has bugged me for a while. Reports value pitching prospects far less than they should.

Thirded! Even very good pitching prospects tend to miss out on the list.

[andymac]

Originally Posted by injury log

This simply isn't true. Brian Anderson (the pitcher, not the outfielder) and Matt Mantei both suffered CEIs in Spring Training last year - both retired the day after suffering a serious arm injury. Juan Encarnacion's injury was obviously career ending when it happened. There are others. The frequency of CEIs is clearly too high in OOTP right now, but they shouldn't be eliminated altogether.

The players may have retired because of the injuries, but I don't think it is really fair to call them career ending injuries. In every case that the player isn't dead they could "try" to come back from an injury. Sometimes, they do not feel that the effort is worth the odds they will make it back and retire. Career Ending Injury is definitely too vague of term and should be removed. Any time a player is seriously injured they should "consider" retirement, but no injury should guarantee retirement.

[TGH-Adfabre]

Originally Posted by andymac

The players may have retired because of the injuries, but I don't think it is really fair to call them career ending injuries. In every case that the player isn't dead they could "try" to come back from an injury. Sometimes, they do not feel that the effort is worth the odds they will make it back and retire. Career Ending Injury is definitely too vague of term and should be removed. Any time a player is seriously injured they should "consider" retirement, but no injury should guarantee retirement.

I guarantee you Juan Encarnacion's carrer is ended.

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by Beavis Christ

I guarantee you Juan Encarnacion's carrer is ended.

Does he know this? Or is there another reason why he recently (11/11/08) filed for free agency, like maybe something to do with benefits or retirement or something???

[andymac]

Originally Posted by Beavis Christ

I guarantee you Juan Encarnacion's carrer is ended.

He can still physically swing a bat...he can play baseball. How well he can play it should not play a role in whether he has to retire. He may retire himself or become retired by default because no one offers him a contract, but hard coding career ending injuries is fundamentally wrong.

[texasmame]

Originally Posted by andymac

He can still physically swing a bat...he can play baseball. How well he can play it should not play a role in whether he has to retire. He may retire himself or become retired by default because no one offers him a contract, but hard coding career ending injuries is fundamentally wrong.

I don't let those stick unless a guy suffered a career ender in real life (I use real players).

I had one career ender and simply made it a calander year long injury. I felt this was fair since it still "hurts" the player's numbers but doesn't end his career.

YMMV.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by andymac

But hard coding career ending injuries is fundamentally wrong.

I agree, it isn't the best way to model it.

[injury log]

Andymac, we're just going to have to disagree on that.

Originally Posted by MidKnight

Seconded; this has bugged me for a while. Reports value pitching prospects far less than they should.

An even bigger concern for me is: to make the BA prospect lists, the game is probably calculating one 'Potential Value' number for each player, then factoring in a couple of other variables (minor league level, etc) and using that to rank players. If pitchers are being ranked well below batters on the BA lists, perhaps they're getting way lower 'Potential Value' than batters, and if this number is used in other AI decisionmaking (trading, waiving, releasing), then maybe this BA prospect list issue is related to some of the bizarre AI trading behaviour with pitching prospects -- offering its just-drafted 1st round SP prospects every time you shop a mediocre player, for example.

So maybe fixing this fixes a few things.

[TGH-Adfabre]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

Does he know this? Or is there another reason why he recently (11/11/08) filed for free agency, like maybe something to do with benefits or retirement or something???

I lounge corrected.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by Beavis Christ

I lounge corrected.

You shouldn't; you were right the first time. Encarnacion filing for free agency is just a paperwork formality. Encarnacion is not coming back. From the rotoworld report the day he filed:

"According to the St. Louis Post Dispatch, Juan Enacarnacion has "not yet recovered enough vision in his left eye to drive, let alone attempt to play baseball again" despite filing for free agency Monday.
Filing for free agency was merely a formality for Encarnacion, whose career likely ended when he was hit in the face by a foul ball in August of 2007 while standing in the on-deck circle."

[TGH-Adfabre]

Originally Posted by injury log

You shouldn't; you were right the first time. Encarnacion filing for free agency is just a paperwork formality. Encarnacion is not coming back. From the rotoworld report the day he filed:

"According to the St. Louis Post Dispatch, Juan Enacarnacion has "not yet recovered enough vision in his left eye to drive, let alone attempt to play baseball again" despite filing for free agency Monday.
Filing for free agency was merely a formality for Encarnacion, whose career likely ended when he was hit in the face by a foul ball in August of 2007 while standing in the on-deck circle."

I recant the correction, but not the lounging.

[conception]

This is a great thread and I hope people haven't gotten too sidetracked. My two major qualms have already sort of been mentioned, but I would like to see better AI usage of waivers and better 40 man roster management. Right now it is much too easy to pass very very good players through waivers. Also, the AI frequently brings up young players who are not actually ready to be on a 40 man roster, then waives them. Some people play with house rules just so they can't claim them but I don't believe in that. I could care less how the waiver claims are actually processed as long as the AI claims players and doesn't put extremely valuable players on waivers.

My other qualm is that I had to end my universe's international league (companion to my major league) because excellent players would sign for a fraction of the money. I would like to be able to develop a league where quality players who had been overlooked can continue to play and hopefully earn a major league contract in the big league.

[Joshua6021]

Originally Posted by andyc

The players may have retired because of the injuries, but I don't think it is really fair to call them career ending injuries. In every case that the player isn't dead they could "try" to come back from an injury. Sometimes, they do not feel that the effort is worth the odds they will make it back and retire. Career Ending Injury is definitely too vague of term and should be removed. Any time a player is seriously injured they should "consider" retirement, but no injury should guarantee retirement.

Not to be too much of an arse here but a ball could strike one in the head and put them in a coma (Career Ending) A player could break their backs runing the bases (Career ending)

[Curtis]

Okay, I'm going to come down on andymac's side in this, even though he may not think it sounds that way.

If 90% of the current CEIs were redefined as SEIs with possible lingering effects, I'd be happy. Yes, there are injuries (and illnesses and off-field events) that are immediately career or life ending. The vast majority of those which eventually prove to be so are not known (at least to the general public) as such until some time after the event. I don't mind if the exceptions are included in the game, but the general case should be given priority over the special case.

I think a solution to this might come from something I saw posted recently (I think injury log would know by whom) which suggested that all injuries over a set length (say, a week) would be announced as guesstimates, and every week a new, more accurate guess would be made. Trainers with a better rating in dealing with that particular type of injury would make better guesses, and would come to the 'final' result more quickly. A system like that could, in future versions, lead to the ability to bring back hurt players, not knowing whether or not they've recovered as fully as they were capable of.

That would take into account situations like the Mets left fielder this past spring who suffered a concussion, but was delayed being put on the DL for a long time because the doctors kept saying he could get better any day. He even tried a brief comeback, but that just worsened his condition.

Now, if we've covered this topic, could we please return to Markus' thread?

[Spritze]

"-Intentional walks are given out way to frequently,I've even seen the AI inentionally walk the tying or winning run late in the game."

I think I noticed why this happens. Runners on 2nd and 3rd, nobody out. The AI walks the batter to set up a double play, trading the possibility for two outs for the possibility of a run scored. This is a standard strategy sometimes chosen by managers in early innings, Casey Stengel used this DP strategy quite often.

BUT

The AI will do this in the bottom of the ninth with no one out and the game tied. At this point the two outs are worthless as the run is a game winner. The AI does not seem aware of the finality of the game situation.

This is similar to the problem of the AI allowing the pitcher to bat in the bottom of the ninth, for instance, when trailing by a run, with the bases loaded and two out. The AI is hoping to use the pitcher in the top of the tenth and so allows him to bat even though much better hitters are available to pinch hit because the AI does not seem to realize that without a hit there will be no run and so no top of the tenth making hoarding the pitcher a silly strategy.

[lordchaos]

When drafting historical players against the computer, it's too easy to see young hall of famers that the computer has given very low ratings. Greg Maddux, Mel Ott, Jimmie Foxx all were very low rated in the draft and stolen by me in the low rounds. Perhaps the computer should assign first year player ratings based on a players whole career.

[andymac]

Originally Posted by Joshua6021

Not to be too much of an arse here but a ball could strike one in the head and put them in a coma (Career Ending) A player could break their backs runing the bases (Career ending)

They could also recover from both circumstances. Unlikely, sure, but not impossible. If an injury ends a career, it should be because it causes a big enough hit to the players abilities, not because the injury is hard coded to be "career ending" a certain percentage of the time.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by andymac

The players may have retired because of the injuries, but I don't think it is really fair to call them career ending injuries. In every case that the player isn't dead they could "try" to come back from an injury. Sometimes, they do not feel that the effort is worth the odds they will make it back and retire. Career Ending Injury is definitely too vague of term and should be removed. Any time a player is seriously injured they should "consider" retirement, but no injury should guarantee retirement.

But that's exactly what a CEI is in OOTP - an injury serious enough to cause the player to retire immediately. That's something that undeniably happens in real life. I don't see what's 'fundamentally wrong' about coding that into the game, just as long as it happens with realistic frequency. There are too many CEIs at the moment, and when I suggested fixing the injury model above, this is one thing that needs fixing.

[teak88]

Originally Posted by injury log

This simply isn't true. Brian Anderson (the pitcher, not the outfielder) and Matt Mantei both suffered CEIs in Spring Training last year - both retired the day after suffering a serious arm injury. Juan Encarnacion's injury was obviously career ending when it happened. There are others. The frequency of CEIs is clearly too high in OOTP right now, but they shouldn't be eliminated altogether.

First of all, you are probably right...there are a few actual CEIs, but they are way too freequent in ootp.

But, more importantly, all other injuries are very "predictable", ie, guy gets injured; game says he is "out for 3-4 weeks"; in 4 weeks he comes back like nothing happened. The game misses the "fog of uncertainty" surrounding most semi-serious injuries...will he come back...how will his ability be affected. IRL there are dozens of guys every year who break/tear/hurt something; sit for 6-16 mos; come back and hit .118 over parts of 3 seasons; and are gone. I guess they had CEIs, but they played out over 3-4 years. The game is just "Bam; gone!"

I only checked one of the examples that you gave, Matt Mantei...and he proves my point.
From 1995-2000, he was a ok MR and Cl; really only 1 good year (32 svs). Then he starts, in 2000, to be "plagued by arm problems". His 2001 season "ended early w/ arm problems" and he had TJ surgery. In 2002, he "worked hard to regain his old form" (2-2, 4.76). He missed a month in 2003, but had a pretty good year (29 Svs). But then he missed most of 2004 w/ bone spurs (0-3, 11.46) and had more surgery. Now signed by the Red Sox for 2005, he pitched only 26 innings (6.49) and goes on DL for rest of year. He goes to Detroit's Spring Trng camp "to try a comeback, but suffers more arm troubles" and leaves camp. (Maybe there was some specific injury here, but I find no reference to it...just "arm troubles"). Interestingly, he signed a minor lg contract with Detroit in 2008 (!), however "after experiencing arm discomfort a few games into spring trng he was released and retired".

I don't know where the CEI was in this very familiar saga. What I see is a guy who hurt his arm in 2001 and then fought for 7 years to hang on "in the show"; had a couple ok years and a lot of time on the DL as he fought through it. This is what ootp doesn't model. Either he would have a CEI in 2001 and "Bam; gone": - or he would spend 6 mos on the DL and be fine

[swampdragon]

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...y-lacking.html

That thread is full of specific examples of fundamental flaws of the in-game managerial and baserunning AI. Please go through it. I will also bump it for convenience.