OOTP and the competition

pstrickert · 01-13-2009, 02:35 PM

The last couple of months, I've been doing my homework. I've tried to find out what makes other baseball sims popular. It has been an eye-opening experience, in particular because I never knew OOTP had so much competition.

Some of the competitors have both tabletop and computer versions of their games, to wit: Box Seat Baseball, Dynasty League Baseball, APBA, and Strat. Other companies release new versions of their games each year: Action! PC Baseball and Baseball Mogul. Replay Baseball will release a PC version in 2009. MLB Front Office Manager (2K Sports) will make its debut later this month. The updated Baseball for Windows (APBA) is tentatively scheduled for Spring 2009. Draft Day Sports is developing a new baseball sim with Shaun Sullivan. Diamond Mind Baseball has a February release date for version 10 (at long last). Lesser-known games (mostly the tabletop variety) abound.

So . . . I suppose it shows the high level of interest in baseball text sims. That's good. But it must not be easy for a small developer to survive. All of which is to say that I look forward to OOTP10, hoping it will maintain (and improve on) its place as the best product of its kind.

PhillieFever · 01-13-2009, 03:23 PM

Wow,I didn't realize that there was so much competition either,should make for an interesting spring...

cbbl · 01-13-2009, 04:15 PM

It's too much work to analyze each, but every program on your list is limited compared to OOTP. Be it depth, statistics, look, engine, customization, ability to play fictional leagues, minor leagues, player development -- something.

Its good to have choice, but I'd bet that even an non-OOTP user if laying each program side-by-side, would list OOTP at the top for depth and opportunity.

Killebrew · 01-13-2009, 05:15 PM

I will say something that may be somewhat controversial: I wish OOTP WAS more limited. It would be a lot easier to fix bugs or add features without breaking something (the 1 step forward, 2 steps back style of new feature development prominent in the most recent versions of the game) if the game was less ginormous. Tech support would be much better. The phone book sized game manual would not scare off potential new customers. More is not always better, especially for a game where you might have a vocal hardcore few who want the game to support changing a Arizona fall league schedule in mid-season versus the 99.9% of users who could care less about that

.

endgame · 01-13-2009, 05:34 PM

Odd when you talk about 'other' baseball games, the first thing that pops into my mind is that Baseball for Windows (was that once called Miller's?) tracked grand slams. With all OOTP has to offer, it's almost silly that should come to mind, but it does. Well...and IRS%

- but that's for a future revision of the database. *crosses fingers*

pstrickert · 01-13-2009, 05:35 PM

One thing I noticed during my "undercover" activities: lots of people still think they know what OOTP's all about, even though they haven't played it since v. 6 (or whenever). What they consider "fact" about OOTP is based on outdated information (or prejudice).

Bluenoser · 01-13-2009, 06:47 PM

As far as I'm concerned, OOTP's biggest current problem is that it "doesn't" have any competition.

I'm hoping that Draft Day Baseball will become that, and pushes OOTP to get back to basics with the game and concentrate on fixing the long long long long outstanding bugs that have haunted it for a long long long time. A lot of those bugs are basic things that should work correctly, such as waivers and FA compensation. And like endgame says, gathering and reporting everyday baseball stats like IRS%. There isn't a baseball stat today that the game shouldn't be able to gather. Gathering numbers and crunching them are very basic db functions.

I agree with Killebrew - get back to basics. Is it more important for OOTP to be able to immitate relegation leagues, or to have the basic baseball functions working properly?

PhillieFever · 01-13-2009, 07:06 PM

I also agree with Bruce and Killebrew,the basics now must be fixed if the game is going to survive the seeming onslaught of competition,things like basic AI managing strategy,use of pinch hitters/runners,injuries,FA compensation,the financial model,general GM strategies and some other things that I;m less framiliar with all have flaws that need to be fixed otherwise the game's user base could dip dramatically.I for one want the best text simulation of baseball,bar none.Weather that's OOTP,Diamond Mine,Replay,or some other game we'll all soon find out.Do I want it to be OOTP,you bet.I applied for beta and if I'm selected,I'll do my best to help OOTP achieve that goal but if something happens and OOTP 10 is a disappointment will I blindly buy it...no.

bababui · 01-13-2009, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceM

I agree with Killebrew - get back to basics. Is it more important for OOTP to be able to immitate relegation leagues, or to have the basic baseball functions working properly?

I would say that implementing a functioning promotion/relegation system is just as important as any feature you have mentioned. Many OOTPers arent interested in mirroring MLB.

bababui · 01-13-2009, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

....otherwise the game's user base could dip dramatically.

Where will they go? Trying to maintain as broad a customer base as possible seems like common sense to me.

Tekneek · 01-13-2009, 07:14 PM

I have checked some other games out and have always been disappointed in one way or another. While some of those other games may put on a more realistic simulation of an individual season, I have not found any others that have the depth and flexibility that OOTP does. None of the competitors allow me to create an entirely fictional baseball world simply by clicking a few buttons, and have all of the leagues effectively sign players from the same pool.

PhillieFever · 01-13-2009, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bababui

Where will they go? Trying to maintain as broad a customer base as possible seems like common sense to me.

Of course it does,and believe me I want nothing more than that.The point I was trying to make is simply that with the seeming onslaught of competition(which may or may not pan out) it would be smart for OOTP to tighten up the core features in the game because by doing that you don't give the customers you already have a reason to look for something else.Once you accomplish that,then you add features to bring in new customers.

endgame · 01-13-2009, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bababui

IMany OOTPers arent interested in mirroring MLB.

I think most would still agree that getting MLB basics correct are still fundamental to the core upon which the fictional or phantasmagoria are built.

Bluenoser · 01-13-2009, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bababui

I would say that implementing a functioning promotion/relegation system is just as important as any feature you have mentioned. Many OOTPers arent interested in mirroring MLB.

No one said "mirror MLB". What was said was have the basic baseball functions working properly. There's a big difference between basic baseball functions working and mirroring MLB.

Cryomaniac · 01-13-2009, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceM

No one said "mirror MLB".

I point you in the direction of The Wolf in this thread:

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...s-leagues.html

Of course, my tongue is firmly in my cheek with this post, but certain people DO want to mirror MLB first.

DMN · 01-13-2009, 07:57 PM

I would like to point out that based on the list of games that pstrickert started this tread with, really only two other games are currently competition for OOTP. They are the former PureSim by Shaun Sullivan (now being produced by Wolverine Studios but little development has been done so far! and no release is expected before late summer) and Baseball Mogul. These games all have the career mode that is the basis on which OOTP is built. OOTP is not designed as a "Replay" of a particular year or season. You can certainly do that with OOTP (or PureSim and Mogul) but the depth comes from running a career or a fictional universe.

Games like APBA, Strat, DMB, Replay, Action are "replay" games designed to allow you to replay a particular season even using actual daily lineups and starters. They are all excellent games and have a very loyal following and those that don't like them for one reason or the other. Each game has its particular strengths and weaknesses. That has been argued and debated by fans and detractors alike.

I have owned and played most of these games and still do. I started with the APBA board game and moved to Replay years ago. I still have a soft spot in my heart for APBA because it was great fun as a kid and much better than the games I tried to invent myself. I want them all to succeed! but then I also try to purchase and support as many as I can because I still have "fun" playing them.

Lets just hope that the majority of these developers and companies can stay afloat considering the dreadful economy we face today.

Bluenoser · 01-13-2009, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

I point you in the direction of The Wolf in this thread:

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...s-leagues.html

Of course, my tongue is firmly in my cheek with this post, but certain people DO want to mirror MLB first.

Nice, I'm sure if we go back over the older version of OOTP Forums we'd find a few hundred other examples too. I wasn't discussing those other threads. I'm discussing what's in this one, and that's where my point is directed, on this discussion.

myasu · 01-13-2009, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceM

OOTP to get back to basics with the game and concentrate on fixing the long long long long outstanding bugs that have haunted it for a long long long time. A lot of those bugs are basic things that should work correctly, such as waivers and FA compensation. And like endgame says, gathering and reporting everyday baseball stats like IRS%. There isn't a baseball stat today that the game shouldn't be able to gather. Gathering numbers and crunching them are very basic db functions.

Can't agree with you more, although I am Pessimistic about this.

Le Grande Orange · 01-13-2009, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceM

No one said "mirror MLB". What was said was have the basic baseball functions working properly. There's a big difference between basic baseball functions working and mirroring MLB.

Except that...

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceM

...such as waivers and FA compensation...

...are very much MLB. Not only that, but FA compensation and waiver rules (amongst many others) have varied considerably over MLB's history. So there's the question of whether OOTP should just mimic the rules which exist now or if it should allow the option of recreating the rules the way they used to be (which would definitely have an impact on historical leagues).

Folks today are used to the July 31 trade deadline and the lack of distinction between league and interleague trades, since that's how it's been since 1986.

But from 1923-1985 the trade deadline was June 15, a month and a half earlier. And from 1953-1985 interleague trades were waiver restricted, which meant that an interleague trade required the player to clear waivers inside his own league during the off-season and before the trade deadline, while after the trade deadline the player had to clear waivers in both leagues. Naturally, this restriction made interleague trades more difficult to complete, and offered a different set of challenges to the GM.

Certainly long discussions could be had on what OOTP ought to focus on and what areas could be selectively simplified...

Cornelius McGillicuddy · 01-13-2009, 09:28 PM

Everybody seems to be interested in different things in a baseball sim. If I found a game that could setup a year with outstanding text and a ball field with players and player photos like ootp, but the emphasis was on pbp and you could do any year without spending for each one or mix and match years/clubs, I'd buy it and sorry but it would be bye bye ootp. Many people here couldn't card less about this.

01-13-2009, 02:35 PM	#1
pstrickert Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 16,945	OOTP and the competition The last couple of months, I've been doing my homework. I've tried to find out what makes other baseball sims popular. It has been an eye-opening experience, in particular because I never knew OOTP had so much competition. Some of the competitors have both tabletop and computer versions of their games, to wit: Box Seat Baseball, Dynasty League Baseball, APBA, and Strat. Other companies release new versions of their games each year: Action! PC Baseball and Baseball Mogul. Replay Baseball will release a PC version in 2009. MLB Front Office Manager (2K Sports) will make its debut later this month. The updated Baseball for Windows (APBA) is tentatively scheduled for Spring 2009. Draft Day Sports is developing a new baseball sim with Shaun Sullivan. Diamond Mind Baseball has a February release date for version 10 (at long last). Lesser-known games (mostly the tabletop variety) abound. So . . . I suppose it shows the high level of interest in baseball text sims. That's good. But it must not be easy for a small developer to survive. All of which is to say that I look forward to OOTP10, hoping it will maintain (and improve on) its place as the best product of its kind. Last edited by pstrickert; 01-13-2009 at 06:25 PM.

01-13-2009, 03:23 PM	#2
PhillieFever Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Elk Twp. NJ Posts: 6,763	Wow,I didn't realize that there was so much competition either,should make for an interesting spring... __________________ We're All Wednesday Aren't We? WAWAW

01-13-2009, 05:15 PM	#4
Killebrew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 3,326	I will say something that may be somewhat controversial: I wish OOTP WAS more limited. It would be a lot easier to fix bugs or add features without breaking something (the 1 step forward, 2 steps back style of new feature development prominent in the most recent versions of the game) if the game was less ginormous. Tech support would be much better. The phone book sized game manual would not scare off potential new customers. More is not always better, especially for a game where you might have a vocal hardcore few who want the game to support changing a Arizona fall league schedule in mid-season versus the 99.9% of users who could care less about that.

01-13-2009, 05:34 PM	#5
endgame Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 16,842	Odd when you talk about 'other' baseball games, the first thing that pops into my mind is that Baseball for Windows (was that once called Miller's?) tracked grand slams. With all OOTP has to offer, it's almost silly that should come to mind, but it does. Well...and IRS% - but that's for a future revision of the database. crosses fingers __________________ "Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett _____________________________________________

01-13-2009, 07:06 PM	#8
PhillieFever Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Elk Twp. NJ Posts: 6,763	I also agree with Bruce and Killebrew,the basics now must be fixed if the game is going to survive the seeming onslaught of competition,things like basic AI managing strategy,use of pinch hitters/runners,injuries,FA compensation,the financial model,general GM strategies and some other things that I;m less framiliar with all have flaws that need to be fixed otherwise the game's user base could dip dramatically.I for one want the best text simulation of baseball,bar none.Weather that's OOTP,Diamond Mine,Replay,or some other game we'll all soon find out.Do I want it to be OOTP,you bet.I applied for beta and if I'm selected,I'll do my best to help OOTP achieve that goal but if something happens and OOTP 10 is a disappointment will I blindly buy it...no. __________________ We're All Wednesday Aren't We? WAWAW

01-13-2009, 04:15 PM	#3
cbbl All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,179	It's too much work to analyze each, but every program on your list is limited compared to OOTP. Be it depth, statistics, look, engine, customization, ability to play fictional leagues, minor leagues, player development -- something. Its good to have choice, but I'd bet that even an non-OOTP user if laying each program side-by-side, would list OOTP at the top for depth and opportunity.

01-13-2009, 05:35 PM	#6
pstrickert Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 16,945	One thing I noticed during my "undercover" activities: lots of people still think they know what OOTP's all about, even though they haven't played it since v. 6 (or whenever). What they consider "fact" about OOTP is based on outdated information (or prejudice).

01-13-2009, 06:47 PM	#7
Bluenoser Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In The Moment Posts: 14,444	As far as I'm concerned, OOTP's biggest current problem is that it "doesn't" have any competition. I'm hoping that Draft Day Baseball will become that, and pushes OOTP to get back to basics with the game and concentrate on fixing the long long long long outstanding bugs that have haunted it for a long long long time. A lot of those bugs are basic things that should work correctly, such as waivers and FA compensation. And like endgame says, gathering and reporting everyday baseball stats like IRS%. There isn't a baseball stat today that the game shouldn't be able to gather. Gathering numbers and crunching them are very basic db functions. I agree with Killebrew - get back to basics. Is it more important for OOTP to be able to immitate relegation leagues, or to have the basic baseball functions working properly?

01-13-2009, 07:14 PM	#11
Tekneek Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: GA, USA Posts: 455	I have checked some other games out and have always been disappointed in one way or another. While some of those other games may put on a more realistic simulation of an individual season, I have not found any others that have the depth and flexibility that OOTP does. None of the competitors allow me to create an entirely fictional baseball world simply by clicking a few buttons, and have all of the leagues effectively sign players from the same pool.

01-13-2009, 07:57 PM	#16
DMN Major Leagues Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 328	I would like to point out that based on the list of games that pstrickert started this tread with, really only two other games are currently competition for OOTP. They are the former PureSim by Shaun Sullivan (now being produced by Wolverine Studios but little development has been done so far! and no release is expected before late summer) and Baseball Mogul. These games all have the career mode that is the basis on which OOTP is built. OOTP is not designed as a "Replay" of a particular year or season. You can certainly do that with OOTP (or PureSim and Mogul) but the depth comes from running a career or a fictional universe. Games like APBA, Strat, DMB, Replay, Action are "replay" games designed to allow you to replay a particular season even using actual daily lineups and starters. They are all excellent games and have a very loyal following and those that don't like them for one reason or the other. Each game has its particular strengths and weaknesses. That has been argued and debated by fans and detractors alike. I have owned and played most of these games and still do. I started with the APBA board game and moved to Replay years ago. I still have a soft spot in my heart for APBA because it was great fun as a kid and much better than the games I tried to invent myself. I want them all to succeed! but then I also try to purchase and support as many as I can because I still have "fun" playing them. Lets just hope that the majority of these developers and companies can stay afloat considering the dreadful economy we face today. __________________ DMN FBA - Durham Bulls LOTG - Pittsburgh Pirates 1901 & 02 league Champs!

01-13-2009, 09:28 PM	#20
Cornelius McGillicuddy Banned Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Playing the inside game Posts: 763 Infractions: 0/1 (4)	Everybody seems to be interested in different things in a baseball sim. If I found a game that could setup a year with outstanding text and a ball field with players and player photos like ootp, but the emphasis was on pbp and you could do any year without spending for each one or mix and match years/clubs, I'd buy it and sorry but it would be bye bye ootp. Many people here couldn't card less about this.