The HOF hates Ron Santo

piperclap · 12-08-2008, 07:06 PM

Seriously, how does he not get in?

He spent most of the 60's as a premier (some would argue THE) third baseman. Consistently top 10 in Runs, Homeruns, RBI, OBP, and spent most of the 60s leading the league in walks. He was a shoe-in for 160 games a year at 3rd, and to top it off, he's one of the best characters of all time. If Yogi fricking Berra is a Hall Of Famer, so is Ronny.

The veterans committee can go suck an egg.

dsvitak · 12-08-2008, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piperclap

Seriously, how does he not get in?

He spent most of the 60's as a premier (some would argue THE) third baseman. Consistently top 10 in Runs, Homeruns, RBI, OBP, and spent most of the 60s leading the league in walks. He was a shoe-in for 160 games a year at 3rd, and to top it off, he's one of the best characters of all time. If Yogi fricking Berra is a Hall Of Famer, so is Ronny.

The veterans committee can go suck an egg.

Seriously, what are you smoking?

Quote:

Consistently top 10 in Runs

Nope, third once, seventh once, ninth, once.

Since when did being in the top TEN in a category mean anything?

I can name you fifty dramatically better players than Santo.

His numbers are marginal, and he played in a hitters park. Jimmy Wynn was a MUCH better player...as was Madlock, Al Oliver, Dave Parker, Dale Murphy, Jack Clark, Keith Hernandez, Harold Baines, and vastly more that I can easily come up with, in just two minutes time.

Dude, .277 lifetime, with 342 homers and 1331 RBI just ain't gonna get it done. Not even close.

Jason Moyer · 12-08-2008, 09:41 PM

I'm glad the current veterans voting system is making it difficult to be selected, because the big problem with the hall in the past (aside from the baseball writers, who are idiots, being the primary selectors) was the veterans committee allowing any player they had vaguely fond memories of into the hall.

On the other hand, Ron Santo was a better player than Brooks Robinson, which highlights the travesty that is his exclusion. I expect the disappointment to continue with the BBWAA vote, as Blyleven will once again fall short and Raines will probably fall off the ballot entirely.

Edit: And Yogi Berra is in the hall of fame because he was the greatest catcher who ever played until Bench came along. Granted, Santo was maybe the greatest third baseman to play the game until Schmidt came along...

Jason Moyer · 12-08-2008, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsvitak

Dude, .277 lifetime, with 342 homers and 1331 RBI just ain't gonna get it done. Not even close.

What about .267 lifetime with 268 homers and 1357 RBI in 600 more games?

Long_Long_Name · 12-08-2008, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

Raines will probably fall off the ballot entirely.

See, that's something I don't get. Tim Raines is a popular character, a "good guy", who played an "exciting" brand of hockey - he's probably what, the second best base stealer ever and the second best typical leadoff hitter ever? I thought people liked exciting stuff like stolen bases. He's also played in New York for a while.

His Own Bad Self · 12-08-2008, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsvitak

I can name you fifty dramatically better players than Santo.

Even at 51st, that still makes him a HoFer. Anyway, fifty? Start naming names.

Splitter24 · 12-08-2008, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsvitak

Seriously, what are you smoking?

Nope, third once, seventh once, ninth, once.

Since when did being in the top TEN in a category mean anything?

I can name you fifty dramatically better players than Santo.

His numbers are marginal, and he played in a hitters park. Jimmy Wynn was a MUCH better player...as was Madlock, Al Oliver, Dave Parker, Dale Murphy, Jack Clark, Keith Hernandez, Harold Baines, and vastly more that I can easily come up with, in just two minutes time.

Dude, .277 lifetime, with 342 homers and 1331 RBI just ain't gonna get it done. Not even close.

I usually stay away from these types of arguments, but...

- Santo played the majority of his career in the 60's, a much tougher hitter's era. All of the other players you mentioned played mainly in the 70's and 80's, with the exception of Wynn, who was an exact contemporary.

- The other players you cite are all OF's or 1B's, save Bill Madlock. Madlock was a marginal 3B, an even worse 2B. Santo won 5 Gold Gloves at an important defensive position. Of your list of players, only Hernandez won more GG's than Santo, and that was at one of the least demanding defensive positions, though Hernandez played it as well as anybody that I've ever seen.

- When using OPS+ as a measuring stick to help try to neutralize the era and home ballpark biases, Santo is right in the middle of your list:

Clark - 137
Wynn - 128
Hernandez - 128
Santo - 125
Madlock - 123
Parker - 121
Murphy - 121
Oliver - 121
Baines - 120

Santo definitely benefitted from playing at Wrigley, which was more than offset by playing in the run-suppressed 1960's.

- All Star appearances, Top 5 MVP finishes and Gold Gloves:

Clark - 4/2/0
Wynn - 3/1/0
Hernandez - 5/3/11
Santo - 9/2/5
Madlock - 3/0/0
Parker - 7/5/3
Murphy - 7/2/5
Oliver - 7/1/0
Baines - 5/0/0

Interesting to note that six 3B have appeared in as many All Star games as Santo. All of them are in the HoF (Robinson, Brett, Boggs, Schmidt, Kell and Mathews).

piperclap · 12-08-2008, 10:51 PM

Bill ****ing Mazeroski is in the hall of fame.

.260, 138 HR, 2016 hits in 17 seasons.

Really?

Kirby Puckett-Mr. Overrated
.318, 207 HRs -Thats HOF?

OPS Comparison

Ron Santo-.826
Brooks Robinson-.723
Wade Boggs-.858

If you look at other 3b in the hall, Santo compares favorably to all of them except Schmidt, who is the greatest 3b of all time.

Jason Moyer · 12-08-2008, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piperclap

If you look at other 3b in the hall, Santo compares favorably to all of them except Schmidt, who is the greatest 3b of all time.

Or George Brett.

Third base is the only position that really seems under-represented in the hall, even with some of the horrible third basemen that have been put in.

rudel.dietrich · 12-08-2008, 11:43 PM

Schmidt, Brett and Mathews are on a plateau by themselves and Santo is the leader of the rest of the group climing up the side

SWardle · 12-09-2008, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

Edit: And Yogi Berra is in the hall of fame because he was the greatest catcher who ever played until Bench came along. Granted, Santo was maybe the greatest third baseman to play the game until Schmidt came along...

Ummm, not even close.

Eddie Mathews Statistics - Baseball-Reference.com

Frank Baker Statistics - Baseball-Reference.com

Pie Traynor Statistics - Baseball-Reference.com

George Kell Statistics - Baseball-Reference.com

Eddie Collins Statistics - Baseball-Reference.com

Saying Ron Santo belongs in the HOF is one thing. Saying he was the best 3B prior to Schmidt is just lunacy, IMO.

SWardle · 12-09-2008, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

Schmidt, Brett and Mathews are on a plateau by themselves and Santo is the leader of the rest of the group climing up the side

WTF? Boggs, Chipper, Traynor, Kell and Baker?

AnotherAlias · 12-09-2008, 07:37 AM

Yeah, it is sad.

There is no doubt at all that he has the numbers to qualify for the HOF.

The commitee must be high on drugs.

SandMan · 12-09-2008, 09:30 AM

Santo was the best at his position during the time he played. Upto age 32 he is comparable to Mike Schmidt. He had to retire early because of his medical condition, but this should not take away from him being a great player.

Santo rates in Bill James Historical Abstract as the 6th best thirdbaseman in history. The 5 in front of him are in the hall of fame as are others that rate much worse. How can the player rated 43rd at his position be in the HOF but number 6 is not?????

Jason Moyer · 12-09-2008, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SWardle

Saying Ron Santo belongs in the HOF is one thing. Saying he was the best 3B prior to Schmidt is just lunacy, IMO.

Alright, he was third behind the two Eddies then, or maybe 4th behind Eddie squared and Al Rosen.

canadiancreed · 12-09-2008, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Long_Long_Name

See, that's something I don't get. Tim Raines is a popular character, a "good guy", who played an "exciting" brand of hockey - he's probably what, the second best base stealer ever and the second best typical leadoff hitter ever? I thought people liked exciting stuff like stolen bases. He's also played in New York for a while.

Sadly he was popular in a market that the majority of writers couldn't find on a map if they were given detailed directions.

And hockey?

eriqjaffe · 12-09-2008, 01:01 PM

Oh, yeah, here's Santo complaining about it!

ESPN - Ron Santo says Hall of Fame Veterans Committee process needs to change

CBL-Commish · 12-09-2008, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SWardle

Ummm, not even close.

Eddie Mathews Statistics - Baseball-Reference.com

Frank Baker Statistics - Baseball-Reference.com

Pie Traynor Statistics - Baseball-Reference.com

George Kell Statistics - Baseball-Reference.com

Eddie Collins Statistics - Baseball-Reference.com

Saying Ron Santo belongs in the HOF is one thing. Saying he was the best 3B prior to Schmidt is just lunacy, IMO.

Umm... Santo was better than Baker, miles ahead of Traynor, on a whole other planet from Kell, and Eddie Collins was a 2nd baseman. You may have been thinking about Jimmy Collins. Jimmy was pretty good, but it's not hard to make a case that Collins and his 113 OPS+ couldn't have been any better than Santo and his 125 unless you want to argue he's the best defensive third baseman in history.

Really, Eddie Mathews is the only player on your list with a legitimate claim to being better than Santo, and he's not a lot better. He just played longer and therefore has better counting stats.

SWardle · 12-09-2008, 04:47 PM

Yes, because obviously deadball era guys that didn't jack up 30 homeruns a season couldn't possibly be any good, right?

stevebydac · 12-09-2008, 07:08 PM

Bill James said somewhere that we can't compare a person's candidacy to how many are like him IN the HOF, but rather we should compare him to how many like him are OUT of the HOF. In other words, there are a handful of guys who are in the Hall who shouldn't be. Let's not make it worse by putting more Hall of Very Good players in that don't deserve to be. (I'm not saying that about Santo - I'm on the fence with him - don't know enough).

Quote:

Originally Posted by piperclap

Bill ****ing Mazeroski is in the hall of fame.

.260, 138 HR, 2016 hits in 17 seasons.

Really?

I read an article where someone said that it isn't really so bad to have the arguably best fielding 2B in the Hall. I tend to agree with you, but that's not a bad counter-argument.

Quote:

Kirby Puckett-Mr. Overrated
.318, 207 HRs -Thats HOF?

He and Catfish Hunter drive me crazy. Puckett was Mr. Popular, and a very good player, but wasn't around long enough (not his fault) to merit induction. There are quite a few players who had runs like him who later tailed off, which hurt them. Puckett benefits from not having (what would have been) his post-prime years factored in.

Catfish Hunter's in, but Luis Tiant and others aren't. Compare Hunter and Tiant's careers when you have a moment - very comparable, but Tiant can't get a sniff, and he was arguably the best "big game" pitcher in the majors while with the Red Sox in the 70s. Hunter never should have been elected.

12-08-2008, 07:06 PM	#1
piperclap All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 671	The HOF hates Ron Santo Seriously, how does he not get in? He spent most of the 60's as a premier (some would argue THE) third baseman. Consistently top 10 in Runs, Homeruns, RBI, OBP, and spent most of the 60s leading the league in walks. He was a shoe-in for 160 games a year at 3rd, and to top it off, he's one of the best characters of all time. If Yogi fricking Berra is a Hall Of Famer, so is Ronny. The veterans committee can go suck an egg.

12-08-2008, 09:41 PM	#3
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,111	I'm glad the current veterans voting system is making it difficult to be selected, because the big problem with the hall in the past (aside from the baseball writers, who are idiots, being the primary selectors) was the veterans committee allowing any player they had vaguely fond memories of into the hall. On the other hand, Ron Santo was a better player than Brooks Robinson, which highlights the travesty that is his exclusion. I expect the disappointment to continue with the BBWAA vote, as Blyleven will once again fall short and Raines will probably fall off the ballot entirely. Edit: And Yogi Berra is in the hall of fame because he was the greatest catcher who ever played until Bench came along. Granted, Santo was maybe the greatest third baseman to play the game until Schmidt came along... __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech Last edited by Jason Moyer; 12-08-2008 at 09:45 PM.

12-08-2008, 11:43 PM	#10
rudel.dietrich Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Zürich, Switzerland Posts: 8,608	Schmidt, Brett and Mathews are on a plateau by themselves and Santo is the leader of the rest of the group climing up the side Last edited by rudel.dietrich; 12-08-2008 at 11:44 PM.

12-09-2008, 09:30 AM	#14
SandMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,946	Santo was the best at his position during the time he played. Upto age 32 he is comparable to Mike Schmidt. He had to retire early because of his medical condition, but this should not take away from him being a great player. Santo rates in Bill James Historical Abstract as the 6th best thirdbaseman in history. The 5 in front of him are in the hall of fame as are others that rate much worse. How can the player rated 43rd at his position be in the HOF but number 6 is not????? Last edited by SandMan; 12-09-2008 at 09:33 AM.

12-09-2008, 01:01 PM	#17
eriqjaffe Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2003 Location: Under The Christmas Fish Posts: 7,767	Oh, yeah, here's Santo complaining about it! ESPN - Ron Santo says Hall of Fame Veterans Committee process needs to change __________________

12-08-2008, 10:51 PM	#8
piperclap All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 671	Bill ****ing Mazeroski is in the hall of fame. .260, 138 HR, 2016 hits in 17 seasons. Really? Kirby Puckett-Mr. Overrated .318, 207 HRs -Thats HOF? OPS Comparison Ron Santo-.826 Brooks Robinson-.723 Wade Boggs-.858 If you look at other 3b in the hall, Santo compares favorably to all of them except Schmidt, who is the greatest 3b of all time.

12-09-2008, 07:37 AM	#13
AnotherAlias Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I'm back...for now Posts: 4,190	Yeah, it is sad. There is no doubt at all that he has the numbers to qualify for the HOF. The commitee must be high on drugs.

12-09-2008, 04:47 PM	#19
SWardle Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Seeking my El Dorado Posts: 548 Infractions: 0/1 (4)	Yes, because obviously deadball era guys that didn't jack up 30 homeruns a season couldn't possibly be any good, right?