Slightly disappointed - Page 2

atlaz · 04-09-2003, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mh2365
sometimes I think people sign up for a new screen name and post absurd things just to get attention ......

Um yeah... I signed up a year ago to make this post. Or are you suggesting that perhaps I registered a load of accounts in order to be able to use these at will?

Qrusher14242 · 04-09-2003, 10:49 AM

Dont let the fanboys get to ya

CommishJoe · 04-09-2003, 10:57 AM

Software packages offer discounts for previous versions because they are usually overpriced. So, as a "benefit" to previous users, they offer the "discount". Plus, it gives previous users incentive to spend more money.

As Markus is a one man show (even with .400 backing him up), I would assume there is less leeway with the profit structure. Also, if I had to guess, I'd say that between 70-80% of his customers are repeats, where major companies can count on a steady stream of new customers.

I just don't see it being feasable in this case.

Rose14 · 04-09-2003, 05:30 PM

As far as I have seen, ALL sports games charge full price for each new version. That's why I usually only buy a Madden or NCAA game every other year or so (at $49 a pop!).

But I look at OOTP differently. Never in all my years of console/pc gaming have I seen game designers like Markus and company who actually LISTEN to their customers and incorporate many customer ideas in their upgrades/patches.

Have a gripe about Madden, or find a bug? Good luck getting someone at EA to respond or release a patch just DAYS after the initial release. Around here a game isn't released and forgotten; here is constant support, info gathering, and efforts to fix/improve the game.

That's why I love OOTP, and that is why I find $35 bucks a small price to pay every year to get the new version and show my support to the folks who busted their butts to get it out there.

If you don't want to upgrade, don't. No one will hang you for it, and there is still a lot of support for ver.4. Just don't ask .400 Software for upgrade discounts when noone else offers them, especially when they of all people EARN full price support.

/gets off soap box

Johnny Slick · 04-09-2003, 05:40 PM

I think that what people don't seem to realize here is that, even though the game itself is basically the same, there are still significant improvements to the game. These improvements took time to implement, and in effect they *are* analagous to new songs on a CD.

I remember people complaining about the same subject back in the late 90s with Strat-o-Matic (hell, they probably still are), not to mention the Front Page Sports series and all the EA titles. Sierra tried to solve the problem with its baseball game by only coming out with a new version every other year; the result was that they lost market share in the year that elapsed in between new versions, and the title died.

I remember, back in the mid-90s, reading about how most software titles take 18 months to 2 years to fully develop. We require sports games to come out with a new version every season. What I've seen of the OOTP series is that they're FAR less buggy and more complete than the Sierra titles, and each version seems to have a lot more in the way of new stuff than most any other sports console game I've seen (the only analagous series I've seen is Sega's NBA series, which has continually been refined each and every season it's come out).

Look, it's 35 bucks. It's not going to kill you. If you really don't like it, then buy another game... oops, nothing else out there is comparable (and PLEASE don't bring up Baseball Mogul again).

John Craven

CubsFanInTX · 04-09-2003, 06:17 PM

Baseball Mogul sucks!

mh2365 · 04-09-2003, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by atlaz
Um yeah... I signed up a year ago to make this post. Or are you suggesting that perhaps I registered a load of accounts in order to be able to use these at will?

4 posts all in this thread??? yeah maybe you did

"Dont let the fanboys get to ya"

it's funny when someone has nothing intelligent to add to the argument they throw this out

jgross68 · 04-09-2003, 06:47 PM

Some software makers offer discounts to upgrade, some don't. Every consumer has the option to buy or not. Is there something else I'm missing here?

captainstarball · 04-09-2003, 07:06 PM

I should know better at this point to check a thread over 10 or 15 posts. They always have degenerated into some sort of argument between fanboys and critics of the game.

Anyway, just wanted to post that I agree with the statement that I am somewhat disappointed with the game. I think the game was worth 35 bucks but I am not so sure it was worth my 35 bucks if I already have OOTP4. Just my opinion, but the improvements over OOTP4 didn't strike me as 35 bucks worth.

Here is why: I don't feel manager mode adds to the game any. It just added another tiny game on top of the actual OOTP game. It would be much cooler if in manager mode your only actions were not just get married or break up and actually pertained to baseball. For example, if you had to deal with your relations with players more closely as manager. You have to avoid Larry Bowa/Rolen type blowups. You would have to deal with the media and public perception of how you are managing the team etc. These are vague ideas that I am sure would be hard to code but right now I feel manager mode is pretty one-dimensional.

Second, a lot of the other additions are just eye candy, the skins, the in-game sounds etc. This is a nice feature but I don't play text-based sims for their appearance. I would probably be just as happy staring at a spreadsheet.

Third, I am pleased with the new stat enhancements (minor league stats, play off stats) but I feel this did not go far enough. Cato's utility still provides a lot of stats that would add to the game. I think this is one of the most important aspects of the game. I think a lot of us are into this type of genre because we really like the stats. I don't think OOTP4 made that much of a leap over OOTP5

Fourth, the rebuilt AI is disappointing. Still very easy to take advantage of. I agree it is very hard to make a "smart" AI and that we just shouldn't take advantage of it then. However, I just don't think it was improved that much.

Still a great game and definitely has great improvements. And it came out bug-free which I was worried about after TDCB. Just my 2 cents though why I don't know if it was worth 35 bucks if I already own OOTP4.

Willy · 04-09-2003, 07:09 PM

To each his own.

Willy

tcblcommish · 04-09-2003, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Here is why: I don't feel manager mode adds to the game any. It just added another tiny game on top of the actual OOTP game.

Please, people, remember that this is a first year addition. This, I am sure, is no where near finished as it should be a work in prgress.

Quote:

Cato's utility still provides a lot of stats that would add to the game. I think this is one of the most important aspects of the game.

Why would Markus add this into the game if it is already there by someone else. His time is needed in other aspects. I would rather see Cato continue his work and have Markus do more to the game itself and not worry too much about the History util style program as I am pretty sure Markus could not beat such a fine utility. No, this is not a knock on Markus' ability but how do you do better than Cato's

Quote:

Fourth, the rebuilt AI is disappointing. Still very easy to take advantage of. I agree it is very hard to make a "smart" AI and that we just shouldn't take advantage of it then. However, I just don't think it was improved that much.

I agree. The AI still needs some work as it will forever until Markus can make the conputer think like the smartest manager ever. AI is just that, AI. It's another one of those works in progress.

I don't mean to pick on your post. It was just the one that I saw recently that was well written. No offence meant to you.

Quote:

Just my 2 cents though why I don't know if it was worth 35 bucks if I already own OOTP4.

Everyone is allowed to have their opinions, I don't blame people for saying that exact same thing but to me, the Statistics being better, better historical game IMO for the historical stats. I love this game even though it crashes for nme all the time. Just my opinion.

CubsFan · 04-10-2003, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tcblcommish
Why would Markus add this into the game if it is already there by someone else. His time is needed in other aspects. I would rather see Cato continue his work and have Markus do more to the game itself and not worry too much about the History util style program as I am pretty sure Markus could not beat such a fine utility. No, this is not a knock on Markus' ability but how do you do better than Cato's

I don't mean to pick on your post. It was just the one that I saw recently that was well written. No offence meant to you.

(this post offered with the same motive that tcblcommish offered his)

I used Cato's utility in v.4. It's incredible. I love it. It adds great value to the game. And yet, I stopped using it. And I won't use it again in v.5. Why? Because I'm just not comfortable with it. I am reasonably computer literate. I understand how things work. But I am not fluent in the sense that I can analyze difficulties and fix them myself, nor that I can easily understand the help and tips offered on the board for maintaining such a program. And also because it's just too much trouble to have to run a program separately from the game.

But if it were part of the game? I would squeeze every ounce of utility I could out of it. So, this is my way of saying, I agree with the original post and disagree with tcblcommish's reasonable disagreement therewith.

The Almanac is a good idea, and a step in the right direction. But if the game can store and keep all these stats, then why can't it perform a few more computations in a manner that makes it easier to compare players, and a variety of their statistics, across different careers and/or eras of a league? Size is no longer the issue apparently, so here's my vote for ever more statistical compilation in-game.

KWhit · 04-10-2003, 05:29 PM

I agree CubsFan. I used Cato's utility for a solo league in v4. I enjoyed the output, but when I started a new league in v5, I realized that it wasn't worth the work for me. I wish something similar was part of the base game (but like you say, the Almanac is a step in the right direction).

tcblcommish · 04-10-2003, 08:20 PM

I wasn't saying that I don't think that Markus should have this in the game but Cato's util being out there it makes it easier for Markus to work on the other stuff.

Cato's util is even easier than V4. I take a matter of about 10 minutes per offseason to enter everything and get ready for the output.

Anyways, I just wanted to be clear about what I meant for the Historical side of it.

04-09-2003, 10:57 AM	#23
CommishJoe Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 5,238	Software packages offer discounts for previous versions because they are usually overpriced. So, as a "benefit" to previous users, they offer the "discount". Plus, it gives previous users incentive to spend more money. As Markus is a one man show (even with .400 backing him up), I would assume there is less leeway with the profit structure. Also, if I had to guess, I'd say that between 70-80% of his customers are repeats, where major companies can count on a steady stream of new customers. I just don't see it being feasable in this case. __________________ Joe Success isn’t owned. It’s leased. And rent is due every day.

04-09-2003, 05:30 PM	#24
Rose14 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Charleston, WV Posts: 76	As far as I have seen, ALL sports games charge full price for each new version. That's why I usually only buy a Madden or NCAA game every other year or so (at $49 a pop!). But I look at OOTP differently. Never in all my years of console/pc gaming have I seen game designers like Markus and company who actually LISTEN to their customers and incorporate many customer ideas in their upgrades/patches. Have a gripe about Madden, or find a bug? Good luck getting someone at EA to respond or release a patch just DAYS after the initial release. Around here a game isn't released and forgotten; here is constant support, info gathering, and efforts to fix/improve the game. That's why I love OOTP, and that is why I find $35 bucks a small price to pay every year to get the new version and show my support to the folks who busted their butts to get it out there. If you don't want to upgrade, don't. No one will hang you for it, and there is still a lot of support for ver.4. Just don't ask .400 Software for upgrade discounts when noone else offers them, especially when they of all people EARN full price support. /gets off soap box __________________ John Dowd is a eunuch.

04-09-2003, 06:47 PM	#28
jgross68 All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: ....is everything! OTA: .882, Member #866 Posts: 690	Some software makers offer discounts to upgrade, some don't. Every consumer has the option to buy or not. Is there something else I'm missing here? __________________ Javier Gustavo Ruprecht Oss LXVIII Bizarro-Gastric ReFlux Emeritus Judo Purist and Supporter of Monkey Rodeo Leagues: OTBL \| ABC \| OCHO \| Off The Wall (Coming Soon!) Blogs: The Legacy of Tony Womack \| How We Got Enron! ...the musical (Now even less frequently updated!) Topical quote for any occasion: "Never wear your best trousers when you go out to fight for freedom and truth." ~Henrik Ibsen, "An Enemy of the People"

04-09-2003, 07:09 PM	#30
Willy Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Regina, Sk Posts: 443	To each his own. Willy __________________ Consoles are for little kids.

04-10-2003, 05:29 PM	#33
KWhit Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 413	I agree CubsFan. I used Cato's utility for a solo league in v4. I enjoyed the output, but when I started a new league in v5, I realized that it wasn't worth the work for me. I wish something similar was part of the base game (but like you say, the Almanac is a step in the right direction). __________________

04-09-2003, 10:49 AM	#22
Qrusher14242 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: CA Posts: 1,253	Dont let the fanboys get to ya

04-09-2003, 05:40 PM	#25
Johnny Slick Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,012	I think that what people don't seem to realize here is that, even though the game itself is basically the same, there are still significant improvements to the game. These improvements took time to implement, and in effect they are analagous to new songs on a CD. I remember people complaining about the same subject back in the late 90s with Strat-o-Matic (hell, they probably still are), not to mention the Front Page Sports series and all the EA titles. Sierra tried to solve the problem with its baseball game by only coming out with a new version every other year; the result was that they lost market share in the year that elapsed in between new versions, and the title died. I remember, back in the mid-90s, reading about how most software titles take 18 months to 2 years to fully develop. We require sports games to come out with a new version every season. What I've seen of the OOTP series is that they're FAR less buggy and more complete than the Sierra titles, and each version seems to have a lot more in the way of new stuff than most any other sports console game I've seen (the only analagous series I've seen is Sega's NBA series, which has continually been refined each and every season it's come out). Look, it's 35 bucks. It's not going to kill you. If you really don't like it, then buy another game... oops, nothing else out there is comparable (and PLEASE don't bring up Baseball Mogul again). John Craven

04-09-2003, 06:17 PM	#26
CubsFanInTX Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: San Antonio, Tx Posts: 20	Baseball Mogul sucks!

04-09-2003, 07:06 PM	#29
captainstarball Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 112	I should know better at this point to check a thread over 10 or 15 posts. They always have degenerated into some sort of argument between fanboys and critics of the game. Anyway, just wanted to post that I agree with the statement that I am somewhat disappointed with the game. I think the game was worth 35 bucks but I am not so sure it was worth my 35 bucks if I already have OOTP4. Just my opinion, but the improvements over OOTP4 didn't strike me as 35 bucks worth. Here is why: I don't feel manager mode adds to the game any. It just added another tiny game on top of the actual OOTP game. It would be much cooler if in manager mode your only actions were not just get married or break up and actually pertained to baseball. For example, if you had to deal with your relations with players more closely as manager. You have to avoid Larry Bowa/Rolen type blowups. You would have to deal with the media and public perception of how you are managing the team etc. These are vague ideas that I am sure would be hard to code but right now I feel manager mode is pretty one-dimensional. Second, a lot of the other additions are just eye candy, the skins, the in-game sounds etc. This is a nice feature but I don't play text-based sims for their appearance. I would probably be just as happy staring at a spreadsheet. Third, I am pleased with the new stat enhancements (minor league stats, play off stats) but I feel this did not go far enough. Cato's utility still provides a lot of stats that would add to the game. I think this is one of the most important aspects of the game. I think a lot of us are into this type of genre because we really like the stats. I don't think OOTP4 made that much of a leap over OOTP5 Fourth, the rebuilt AI is disappointing. Still very easy to take advantage of. I agree it is very hard to make a "smart" AI and that we just shouldn't take advantage of it then. However, I just don't think it was improved that much. Still a great game and definitely has great improvements. And it came out bug-free which I was worried about after TDCB. Just my 2 cents though why I don't know if it was worth 35 bucks if I already own OOTP4.

04-10-2003, 08:20 PM	#34
tcblcommish Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 3,444	I wasn't saying that I don't think that Markus should have this in the game but Cato's util being out there it makes it easier for Markus to work on the other stuff. Cato's util is even easier than V4. I take a matter of about 10 minutes per offseason to enter everything and get ready for the output. Anyways, I just wanted to be clear about what I meant for the Historical side of it.