Player development is broken! Please fix!

[bosunmate]

Originally Posted by thbroman

At the risk of some serious flaming, I'm going to put my oar in here and ask whether this really is something that is "broken." I am not at all bothered by the fact that sometimes a player starts out with a bang and suddenly declines, preferably after signing a big multi-year contract, of course! . This happens in real life (e.g. Bill Hall of the Brewers for a good curent example) and I don't see why it shouldn't also happen in the game.
There is a danger when we try to generalize from our personal and anecdotal experiences to the game as a whole. The reason why RonCo's criticism of the player development model has to be taken more seriously is that it is based on a far broader sample of players.

EDIT: I do agree that it would be better for the drop to happen not as suddenly as it sometimes does! But I have only rarely seen it happen in the way you describe.

I agree with you, i really don't see any problem with player dev. But I'm more concerned about being able to lock those lineups. Having the computer change my lineups around now that, that's a problem.

[Bears5122]

Originally Posted by RonCo

You're fighting the wrong battle. It's not about US leagues vs. Ghana leagues. It's about the game's ability to model human beings. Unless you're trying to run leagues of dragons and elephants, pretty much all OOTP players are impacted by the results engine and the development engine. It would be better if OOTP owners stopped picking at each other, and instead got together to hold the game to a higher standard in both of these areas.

But in a way it is about US leagues vs Ghana leagues. When some of us mention that, it's because we've felt that player development and other important factors took a backseat to these new additions.

And while getting together to hold the game to a higher standard is novel idea, I don't think it'll happen. There are two different mindsets for OOTP. Those who want to simply play a functioning MLB simulation, and those who want to be able to add those dragon, elephants and 3rd base coaches who can sprinkle pixie dust on their Mongolian feeder league teams.

[andymac]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

You have sort of a point, but until OOTP stops catering to quirks, freaks, and The West Nigerian Really Almost Baseball League players out there, basic issues like player developement will never be fixed.

Maybe you should play a game that has better player development then? Let me know when you find it.


Yes, there are problems with the player development engine and numerous other fundamental parts of the game. However, OOTP does almost all of these things better than anyone else does. While I think it is important that the things that could be fixed/improved are discussed I think it is just as important that they are discussed in a constructive manner and not in a "take my ball and go home" sort of way.

This is a game that has enabled many people who play in many different ways to enjoy it. While it is fine to campaign for the improvements that you want, it is only going to breed bickering and infighting when you do so by putting down the other ways that the game can be played.

[thbroman]

Folks, we're mixing two different issues here, and I can't help but think it would be best to keep them separate.
DaMook's reponse to my post above suggests that he believes the issue reported by him in his first post may be more broadly generalizable and not merely anecdotal. He may be right -- my own experience doesn't not confirm this, but my own "anecdotal" experience cetainly has no better right to claim the status of being true than his. So let's take note and see if this can be confirmed.

Whatever the outcome of this issue, however, RonCo's observations on player development had to do with the career arcs of pitchers, not sudden flame-outs. As far as I can tell, they have nothing to do with each other. So to claim that either the one or the other (or both together) is proof that "player development is broken" is far too hasty a generalization.

[andymac]

Player development certainly isn't "broken", it could most definitely be improved however. It will never be perfect.

[treedom]

I guess I don't understand the point of bringing up Ghana leagues in response to the OP's concerns about the player development. The Ghana leagues are in. Sure, further refinements to them should be put on hold until more general problems such as the player development are fixed. But they're in. That's not going to change; taking them out at this point is surely out of the question.

Alos, some are questioning why the Ghana leagues were put in while other legacy bugs exist, but the thing is, the Ghana leagues aren't a new feature. They've been in since the initial release of this generation of OOTP. You remember? Brand new code base, not a line of code carried over? Since it was a new code base, that means all legacy bugs we have now date from that release and no further back. So to say that Ghana leagues were put in while legacy bugs were known to exist is wrong, imho.

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by andymac

However, OOTP does almost all of these things better than anyone else does.

This is true but it doesn't mean those problems are minor and should be accepted just because there isn't a game out there that does it better. That is an attitude that can definitely cost customers.

The Pinto was a better car than the Edsel, but that doesn't mean it was good or particularly popular. But then they both were a Ford. *ducking*

[bababui]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

A lot of us are upset over the fact that the game prioritizes quirks and ridiculous foreign leagues over having a first-class MLB simulator and focusing on real baseball.

MLB is no more 'real' baseball than the NBA is 'real' basketball. Baseball is an international game and if you want a real baseball sim it also has to be international. OOTP far better models the current MLB than say Madden models the NFL. Demanding that Markus cater to one group at the expense of others seems unfair and petulant.

[andymac]

Originally Posted by StyxNCa

This is true but it doesn't mean those problems are minor and should be accepted just because there isn't a game out there that does it better. That is an attitude that can definitely cost customers.

The Ford Pinto was a better car than the Edsel, but that doesn't mean it was good or particularly popular. But then it was a Ford. *ducking*

Of course not, all problems should definitely be pointed out and discussed but too many here act like Markus is personally insulting them by not making these things function absolutely perfectly. Criticism should be constructive or else it is going to cause more bickering than actual exploring of the issue.

[Bears5122]

Originally Posted by bababui

MLB is no more 'real' baseball than the NBA is 'real' basketball. Baseball is an international game and if you want a real baseball sim it also has to be international. OOTP far better models the current MLB than say Madden models the NFL. Demanding that Markus cater to one group at the expense of others seems unfair and petulant.

Catering to that "one group" would dramatically impact the sales of the game and bring the community back to what it was 5 years ago. The "one group" has been ignored the past 5 years while the Samoan Handstand League of Eastern Chile took precedent.

I agree that it's an international game, but MLB is the main reason it is and still the overwhelming favorite amongst fans of the sport. It should be given the most attention and the game should model it well before anything else is touched.

[CBL-Commish]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

You have sort of a point, but until OOTP stops catering to quirks, freaks, and The West Nigerian Really Almost Baseball League players out there, basic issues like player developement will never be fixed.

Or maybe they could just do both.

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by andymac

Of course not, all problems should definitely be pointed out and discussed but too many here act like Markus is personally insulting them by not making these things function absolutely perfectly. Criticism should be constructive or else it is going to cause more bickering than actual exploring of the issue.

I can't argue with that.

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by Bears5122

....... the Samoan Handstand League of Eastern Chile took precedent.

Comments like these crack me up!

[deadringer]

Originally Posted by bababui

MLB is no more 'real' baseball than the NBA is 'real' basketball. Baseball is an international game and if you want a real baseball sim it also has to be international. OOTP far better models the current MLB than say Madden models the NFL. Demanding that Markus cater to one group at the expense of others seems unfair and petulant.

While I agree that one professional league is not more or less "real" than another, you have to see that on this planet MLB has the largest sample size and history to analyze. I think the important thing to remember is that OOTP is designed to be a baseball league simulator but if the engine isn't modeling the individual players correctly it doesn't matter who you want in your league or where you want it operating, it isn't going to "work".

I've watched this game grow and expand for years now and it is my personal opinion that unless Markus learns to better model individual players and the way they interact, this game will never be more realistic. You can add as many features as you'd like and rework old features and you may very well add the immersion factor to the overall experience but until the moving parts are retooled we're not getting any closer.

Unless I'm completely wrong Markus designed the engine to "end" up with realistic stats league wide and has worked backwards from that to get to the players. That will only get us so far.

OOTP does a great job of getting the stats for the big picture right and it always has. That's where the problem lies though. If you look at league / team stats over the history of an OOTP generated league it's really impressive and does a better job than any other game out there. The closer you look at individual players though, the more holes are found in the engine.

Player aging, development, and the way the AI manages it's players are the weakest links in the game IMHO. It really doesn't matter how you play the game, those three will impact your league more than anything else.

The real questions we should be looking at (and be concerned about) are:

1. Does Markus know how to improve the big three?
2. Can those big three be improved within the current engine?
3. If the current engine needs retooled, can he do it fast enough to still have a product out in time for him to do this for a living?

If the answer to #1 or #3 is no, then it is very very unlikely that OOTP will get much more accurate in the coming years, but instead will just add immersion features like it did in this version.

Just my thought, take them for what they're worth.

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by deadringer

The real questions we should be looking at (and be concerned about) are:

1. Does Markus know how to improve the big three?
2. Can those big three be improved within the current engine?
3. If the current engine needs retooled, can he do it fast enough to still have a product out in time for him to do this for a living?

If the answer to #1 or #3 is no, then it is very very unlikely that OOTP will get much more accurate in the coming years, but instead will just add immersion features like it did in this version.

Just my thought, take them for what they're worth.

Very good questions. Maybe the reason some things seem to be "ignored" by Markus is because he is unable to do anything more with them for whatever reason.

If this is so, it would be nice if he would mention it so some of the sniping and complaining that is going on could be stopped.

[adamj]

Originally Posted by mikev

We've got sounds though!!!1

I wonder how many people even use the sounds? I know I turned them off the first night. I'd rather listen to a random radio broadcast from MLB.com in the background.

[deadringer]

Originally Posted by StyxNCa

Very good questions. Maybe the reason some things seem to be "ignored" by Markus is because he is unable to do anything more with them for whatever reason.

If this is so, it would be nice if he would mention it so some of the sniping and complaining that is going on could be stopped.

That would NEVER happen. He'd basically have to admit that the game will never improve except for the superficial things that we're all fighting about and that would be business suicide.

My biggest concern is that Markus has to put out a version each year so the guy can eat (which I don't blame him for). From the moment one version is released he has to bug hunt and repair for so long that it only gives him x number of hours/days/months for the next version and it is quite possible that he's reached the end of the road on this engine. OOTP 2006 was a rebuild because he admitted he'd exhausted the old engine / interface.

The next logical step in OOTP evolution is to develop his player modeling, which would improve everything within the engine. If he were able to correctly model player aging, development, and interaction the players the individual players would look as "good" on paper as the leagues do overall. In order to do this though he might have to retool the engine from scratch including advanced modeling like pitch types which we all know would open Pandora's box.

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by deadringer

While I agree that one professional league is not more or less "real" than another, you have to see that on this planet MLB has the largest sample size and history to analyze. I think the important thing to remember is that OOTP is designed to be a baseball league simulator but if the engine isn't modeling the individual players correctly it doesn't matter who you want in your league or where you want it operating, it isn't going to "work".

I've watched this game grow and expand for years now and it is my personal opinion that unless Markus learns to better model individual players and the way they interact, this game will never be more realistic. You can add as many features as you'd like and rework old features and you may very well add the immersion factor to the overall experience but until the moving parts are retooled we're not getting any closer.

Unless I'm completely wrong Markus designed the engine to "end" up with realistic stats league wide and has worked backwards from that to get to the players. That will only get us so far.

OOTP does a great job of getting the stats for the big picture right and it always has. That's where the problem lies though. If you look at league / team stats over the history of an OOTP generated league it's really impressive and does a better job than any other game out there. The closer you look at individual players though, the more holes are found in the engine.

Player aging, development, and the way the AI manages it's players are the weakest links in the game IMHO. It really doesn't matter how you play the game, those three will impact your league more than anything else.

The real questions we should be looking at (and be concerned about) are:

1. Does Markus know how to improve the big three?
2. Can those big three be improved within the current engine?
3. If the current engine needs retooled, can he do it fast enough to still have a product out in time for him to do this for a living?

If the answer to #1 or #3 is no, then it is very very unlikely that OOTP will get much more accurate in the coming years, but instead will just add immersion features like it did in this version.

Just my thought, take them for what they're worth.

Well said.

I've seen this same thing happen now with 4 different games. And it's getting old. This need for annual receipts means new features HAVE to be added, and thus old old problems linger and linger and linger.

I've harped on it before, so I won't go into another of my three page rants, but give me a game with the best AI ever invented, with the best modeling engine ever invented, and add a sort of realistic but fun and easy financial model, and I'm there for well more than the industry standard $25-$50. It just seems to me that I can't be the only one. And if there are enough like me, then a programmer COULD take two or three years and develop it, sell it at this higher return per unit, and make a living without the need for annual receipts.

But, I guess not. Because if you visit any baseball sim site, you will see this same old argument going on in every one of their forums. Old problems really do linger because there really is only 24 hours in a day. If a programmer HAS to come out with new features every year to justify new receipts, then he can't possibly have the same amount of time to quash the old lingerering issues.

I play em all out so my times goes slowly, but I posted a major rant after my first season in the OOTP 8 forums, I'm now about to finish up my third, and even though I had some real fun (especially a 20 inning amazing 1-0 game), if after this third year I see the same thing I saw in the other two, I'm convinced its broken too.

While it may be "realistic" to have say 92% of young prospects tank because, let's face it, IRL they do, it doesn't work so well in the "Play it Your Way" world of OOTP. IRL, where a team drafts 100 players a year, and 92% tank, they've still got 8 solid prospects a year to look at. In OOTP if you play with no minors and 5 rounds to the draft and 92% fail, you've got 8 solid prospects every 20 years to look at. Not good.

No, I can't come up with more than ancedotal evidence because I play em out and it takes too long. But in BOTH of my previous years, when it went from one year to the next (I noticed THIS was when it occurred, from Dec 31 to Jan 1), almost every one of my prospects on my reserve roster tanked. Both years. Almost every one. And NONE improved. I didn't have a fifth rounder suddenly become MLB material. Not big enough sample size? You're right. But when I see this in my league, and then read this thread, I'm convinced.

*sigh*

[bababui]

Originally Posted by deadringer

While I agree that one professional league is not more or less "real" than another, you have to see that on this planet MLB has the largest sample size and history to analyze. I think the important thing to remember is that OOTP is designed to be a baseball league simulator but if the engine isn't modeling the individual players correctly it doesn't matter who you want in your league or where you want it operating, it isn't going to "work".

I've watched this game grow and expand for years now and it is my personal opinion that unless Markus learns to better model individual players and the way they interact, this game will never be more realistic. You can add as many features as you'd like and rework old features and you may very well add the immersion factor to the overall experience but until the moving parts are retooled we're not getting any closer.

Unless I'm completely wrong Markus designed the engine to "end" up with realistic stats league wide and has worked backwards from that to get to the players. That will only get us so far.

OOTP does a great job of getting the stats for the big picture right and it always has. That's where the problem lies though. If you look at league / team stats over the history of an OOTP generated league it's really impressive and does a better job than any other game out there. The closer you look at individual players though, the more holes are found in the engine.

Player aging, development, and the way the AI manages it's players are the weakest links in the game IMHO. It really doesn't matter how you play the game, those three will impact your league more than anything else.

The real questions we should be looking at (and be concerned about) are:

1. Does Markus know how to improve the big three?
2. Can those big three be improved within the current engine?
3. If the current engine needs retooled, can he do it fast enough to still have a product out in time for him to do this for a living?

If the answer to #1 or #3 is no, then it is very very unlikely that OOTP will get much more accurate in the coming years, but instead will just add immersion features like it did in this version.

Just my thought, take them for what they're worth.

Player development is a completely random thing in the MLB. Anyone who thinks otherwise, please provide a model that will accurately model the development and aging of players in only the major leagues. Its not going to happen. For every Ramirez and Pujols, you have Knoblach and Sexson. Then there is the case of David Ortiz or Reggie Willets. What you want wont happen because its unmoddable on an individual basis.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by thbroman

Folks, we're mixing two different issues here, and I can't help but think it would be best to keep them separate.
DaMook's reponse to my post above suggests that he believes the issue reported by him in his first post may be more broadly generalizable and not merely anecdotal. He may be right -- my own experience doesn't not confirm this, but my own "anecdotal" experience cetainly has no better right to claim the status of being true than his. So let's take note and see if this can be confirmed.

Whatever the outcome of this issue, however, RonCo's observations on player development had to do with the career arcs of pitchers, not sudden flame-outs. As far as I can tell, they have nothing to do with each other. So to claim that either the one or the other (or both together) is proof that "player development is broken" is far too hasty a generalization.

This is closer to my view. I'm all for further improvements in player development but I can live with what it is now plus some tweaking of aging and development and manipulation of league totals.

Far more important to me is the apparent inability of the AI to determine a lineup based on obvious combinations of offense and defense. The fact that the game produces high end hitters with ratings at all four infield positions sucks. Such players should be rare and older. The AI puts these players at 2B and SS just to get the bat in the lineup, no matter how bad the defense. You then end up with lineups that have 30-40 HR from SS/2B but 10-20HR from 1B/3B. This skews both offensive and defensive results just as much as broken player development ever did because the lineup is unrealistic and loaded.

Fix the player creation/AI usage/AI evaluation first.