PbP comparisons between OOTP and DMB

[spitfire]

Originally Posted by Ambermonk

Great examples. I hope Markus does what he said and buys a copy of DMB - and, after digesting what is there, applies his considerable talents to doing it right as the major improvement of a new release!

If the pbp in OOTP ever gets to the point where it's as good as DMB, I'll bet you there won't be 60% of us simming the games anymore!! I'd love to play each game out the way I do in DMB, but the OOTP in-game experience doesn't make it for me. Ballflight and sound to me aren't as important as the pbp, though they're certainly very nice for the people who like that sort of thing. DMB made a big improvement in the pbp in their last patch ... be neat if Markus did the same one of these days. If we have to wait for version 10, I'd be ok with it if I knew the pbp was in for a big upgrade.

[DaddyO]

Just to be clear, I think OOTP9 is leaps and bounds ahead of OOTP7, the previous version I owned, when it comes to pBp. To say it is closing the gap with DMB is not a knock, it's a real compliment.

I don't have the inclination to go research and post examples. Those who've played both know what I'm talking about. DMB has an artful quality, but even the better examples above might give the impression that it's a bunch of gimmicky additions that people think make it great. It's not. Part of it is just the MIX of different emphases. Just the right amount of routine plays, just the right amount of special plays, and once in long while you get a real doozer you've never seen before after playing for years. The bottom line is it corresponds well with the experience of listening to a ball game on the radio, which many of DMB's adherents used to do before there were so many games on TV. Perhaps THAT's why it's hard to duplicate. If you didn't grow up in the radio generation, you can't possibly have the remembrance that the artistry of radio pBp is what hooked many of us on baseball in the first place. You had to visualize the game through words, and the artistry of the announcer had to capture the drama of the game without any visuals at all.

Just my .02.

[Russ]

Very interesting theory in regards to the radio vs. TV generations.

You might be on to something there.

[fantom1979]

Originally Posted by Eugene Church

Good observations.

OOTPB seems to favor the simmers over the gamers who play out games.
The last poll I saw showed that simmers compose 60% of the gamers and about 40% play out games.

IMO Markus doesn't spend enough time on the PBP, which as you say, should be one of his top priorities in a TEXT game.

I have been on the last three Betas and PBP is the last thing addressed. It might be because that is necessary for the coding, but I sense that it not that important to Markus. Otherwise we would have had all of the basic plays of baseball a long time ago. It is now OOTP9 and we are still missing basic, everyday plays.

WHY?

Not that it is going to make anyone feel any better, but the game is still missing some great features for simmers that were in the game before the 2006 version. Some of the features that are missing were even there in v3 and v4.

[bababui]

DMB PbP
Long Winded
ERROR 4

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by DaddyO

Just to be clear, I think OOTP9 is leaps and bounds ahead of OOTP7, the previous version I owned, when it comes to pBp. To say it is closing the gap with DMB is not a knock, it's a real compliment.

I don't have the inclination to go research and post examples. Those who've played both know what I'm talking about. DMB has an artful quality, but even the better examples above might give the impression that it's a bunch of gimmicky additions that people think make it great. It's not. Part of it is just the MIX of different emphases. Just the right amount of routine plays, just the right amount of special plays, and once in long while you get a real doozer you've never seen before after playing for years. The bottom line is it corresponds well with the experience of listening to a ball game on the radio, which many of DMB's adherents used to do before there were so many games on TV. Perhaps THAT's why it's hard to duplicate. If you didn't grow up in the radio generation, you can't possibly have the remembrance that the artistry of radio pBp is what hooked many of us on baseball in the first place. You had to visualize the game through words, and the artistry of the announcer had to capture the drama of the game without any visuals at all.

Just my .02.

+1 Good observations. I lived by my radio as a kid at night. Once it got dark, I could games from far away on my AM, and there was a certain amount of artistry to it. Without that experience, you may well be right that it's difficult to duplicate that artistry. Yet in a text based game, that is PRECISELY what's required. Good observations.

[Ambermonk]

Originally Posted by spitfire

If the pbp in OOTP ever gets to the point where it's as good as DMB, I'll bet you there won't be 60% of us simming the games anymore!! I'd love to play each game out the way I do in DMB, but the OOTP in-game experience doesn't make it for me. Ballflight and sound to me aren't as important as the pbp, though they're certainly very nice for the people who like that sort of thing.

If the PBP does get improved, and you start playing out more games, then perhaps ball flight & sound may be of greater interest to you (and many many others).

[whizkid1950]

As someone who has played out at least 1000 DMB games, I long ago stopped trying to do the same in OOTP due to lack of immersion. Since the release of OOTP9, I've been giving this series another chance, and I've been quite pleased at the improvement in the pbp. It's genuinely more interesting. I'm sure though that I'll never make it to 1000 games in OOTP9; it's just not where it needs to be yet. I'd place OOTP9 third behind DMB and APBA Baseball For Windows, a game that bit the dust almost 10 years ago.

I'm also one of those guys who grew up listening to radio pbp, so I'm sure I'm more demanding in this area than the generation of TV-only baseball fans. If Markus makes it a priority, OOTP will eventually create the suspense and color necessary to make one game's pbp stand out in your memory.

Most of baseball is now in OOTP... what's left to polish more than the pbp?

[Russ]

Does anyone have any recordings of games on radio they could perhaps let Markus borrow? TV and radio really are two different animals.

[Solonor]

Originally Posted by Broth32

I just don't understand why it was in earlier versions of the series but was taken out

I liked having the nice, long play-by-play with current, interesting stats and even a goofy commercial thrown in now and then. As I recall, there was a lot of discussion about the PbP being "too wordy" and the "short and to the point" guys won out.

[plannine]

Originally Posted by Mariner and Giants Fan

DMB also has baseball park specific pbp, like a double off the green monster (at Fenway) etc. Does OOTP have that at all?

But does DMB have a Higgins Field or a Davey Park (little league fields from my youth) in them?

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by MorseMoose

Sound is much more important, obviously.

ROFL.

Sadly it is more important to some people.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

Russ: The mesmerizing power of good PbP is demonstrated by the fact that many people still play DMB for one reason, and one reason only: the PbP.

This could be true. But the statistical accuracy and the amazing roster sets (with lineups, etc.) sure don't hurt, either.

[fantom1979]

I personally will never play out my games. I like to sim years into the future and watch players develop, peak, and then decline. This would never be possible if I played out games. As such, sound and animation will never be anywhere on my want list.

[DaddyO]

The brilliance of DMB is the MIX of "short and to the point" compared to lengthy, more entertaining commentary. By the way, I too like getting the "setup info" for the at bat if it's pertinent. Good setup would only mention something if it's worthy of note. I don't want it to tell me if a guy is 4 for 16 in his last for games with two doubles and an RBI. But if he's 8 for his last 16 against this pitcher, that's helpful. Bottom line, do what an announcer or TV graphic would do.

By the way, I paused a DMB replay to share with you THIS gem that came up, which I have never before seen in my many years of DMB replays:

"hitting 8th, here's Bill Sharp
hitting the ball well of late
0-1
here's the delivery
popped into 'no man's land' behind short
Gomez get's rid of his hat
and makes the catch, easily!
the shortstop ran a little 'fade' pattern
then took the ball over his shoulder
for the TD"

Any sports fan gets the metaphor and little bonus chuckle while he's playing the game. Mister Wood, the primary mover behind the play-by-play for DMB, has obviously listened to a bunch of colorful calls in his lifetime, and if something strikes him as particularly good, he'll pop it in there with "hit" factor that's miniscule. It took years to build this up.

I'm happy with how Markus has progressed in this area, and I'm confident he will continue to progress. I also think it is worth keeping that progress in perspective when you make comparison with the top dog of pBp.

[bababui]

Originally Posted by DaddyO

The brilliance of DMB is the MIX of "short and to the point" compared to lengthy, more entertaining commentary. By the way, I too like getting the "setup info" for the at bat if it's pertinent. Good setup would only mention something if it's worthy of note. I don't want it to tell me if a guy is 4 for 16 in his last for games with two doubles and an RBI. But if he's 8 for his last 16 against this pitcher, that's helpful. Bottom line, do what an announcer or TV graphic would do.

By the way, I paused a DMB replay to share with you THIS gem that came up, which I have never before seen in my many years of DMB replays:

"hitting 8th, here's Bill Sharp
hitting the ball well of late
0-1
here's the delivery
popped into 'no man's land' behind short
Gomez get's rid of his hat
and makes the catch, easily!
the shortstop ran a little 'fade' pattern
then took the ball over his shoulder
for the TD"

Any sports fan gets the metaphor and little bonus chuckle while he's playing the game. Mister Wood, the primary mover behind the play-by-play for DMB, has obviously listened to a bunch of colorful calls in his lifetime, and if something strikes him as particularly good, he'll pop it in there with "hit" factor that's miniscule. It took years to build this up.

I'm happy with how Markus has progressed in this area, and I'm confident he will continue to progress. I also think it is worth keeping that progress in perspective when you make comparison with the top dog of pBp.

I hope that this level of PbP is never more than an option in OOTP. If I wanted to be entertained in this matter, I would read a book. And after you come across it once, it quickly loses its charm. I prefer to play out my games fairly quickly; I like the excitement and enjoyment to come from what unfolds in the game itself.

[DaddyO]

Originally Posted by bababui

I hope that this level of PbP is never more than an option in OOTP. If I wanted to be entertained in this matter, I would read a book. And after you come across it once, it quickly loses its charm. I prefer to play out my games fairly quickly; I like the excitement and enjoyment to come from what unfolds in the game itself.

I actually would agree with you if it came up frequently. The whole point I'm making is that it doesn't. It's rare. I haven't seen this call at all over thousands of games. Far more common is straightforward play by play. One of the problems with OOTP play by play in 2007 was the overabundance of non-routine plays. That has now been fixed in 2009 (I don't know about 2008).

[PhillieFever]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

+1 Good observations. I lived by my radio as a kid at night. Once it got dark, I could games from far away on my AM, and there was a certain amount of artistry to it. Without that experience, you may well be right that it's difficult to duplicate that artistry. Yet in a text based game, that is PRECISELY what's required. Good observations.

I still love listening to Phillies games on the radio,there's just something about baseball that lends itself to kicking back with the little radio and listening to Harry Kalas call the game.

[Eugene Church]

Originally Posted by fantom1979

I personally will never play out my games. I like to sim years into the future and watch players develop, peak, and then decline. This would never be possible if I played out games. As such, sound and animation will never be anywhere on my want list.

Understand what you are saying.

To each his own as far as OOTPB is concerned.

[Eugene Church]

I really like the DMB PBP.

Is it consistently that good or are we just getting the best of DMB?