PBP - hard-coded events in OOTP9?

dryfly07 · 06-23-2008, 07:48 PM

I haven't purchased OOTP9 yet, so I haven't been able to look into this myself...

Does OOTP9 still have hard-coded PBP or news, i.e. end of inning commentary? Or is everything contained in the XML file now?

Eugene Church · 06-23-2008, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dryfly07

I haven't purchased OOTP9 yet, so I haven't been able to look into this myself...

Does OOTP9 still have hard-coded PBP or news, i.e. end of inning commentary? Or is everything contained in the XML file now?

Yes, there is hard-coded PBP and News material in OOTP9.

Cryomaniac · 06-23-2008, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eugene Church

Yes, there is hard-coded PBP and News material in OOTP9.

Can I ask what the reason for this is?

Raidergoo · 06-23-2008, 09:39 PM

You can ask it, but don't expect an answer.

dryfly07 · 06-23-2008, 10:49 PM

That's unfortunate. I wonder why the hard-coded events can't be pulled into the XML file? I've seen this with other games as well. It makes me think there's certain things that have to stay in the program file for the game to work.

Eugene, do you know if the hard-coded events are published anywhere? It would be nice to at least be able to reference them when editing the XML file, so I don't end up with a screwy PBP, which is what happened when I edited the OOTP2007/8 XML file.

tysok · 06-23-2008, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dryfly07

That's unfortunate. I wonder why the hard-coded events can't be pulled into the XML file? I've seen this with other games as well. It makes me think there's certain things that have to stay in the program file for the game to work.

Eugene, do you know if the hard-coded events are published anywhere? It would be nice to at least be able to reference them when editing the XML file, so I don't end up with a screwy PBP, which is what happened when I edited the OOTP2007/8 XML file.

There's nothing that would really make sense.

Your best bet would be to study what's in a category already to decide what you can put there. Not easy to be sure... but creating the pbp was not an easy job. I've gone through hundreds of SEASON's of pbp logs in order to figure out what can and can't be mentioned, so it can work around the hard code lines that could come up around it.

For example, if no object there mentions something you're thinking of putting in... it very well could be that it would conflict with something that could come after it.

dryfly07 · 06-24-2008, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tysok

There's nothing that would really make sense.

Your best bet would be to study what's in a category already to decide what you can put there. Not easy to be sure... but creating the pbp was not an easy job. I've gone through hundreds of SEASON's of pbp logs in order to figure out what can and can't be mentioned, so it can work around the hard code lines that could come up around it.

For example, if no object there mentions something you're thinking of putting in... it very well could be that it would conflict with something that could come after it.

I'd really just like to have the hard-coded lines as a reference. They just seem to pop up in the strangest places. At least I'd know what I was up against editing the XML file if I knew what the hard-coded lines were. In OOTP2007, I had stripped down the XML to one result per category in most categories. It made the gameplay very simple and improved sim times, among other things. I was going to post it, because there were some people looking for something like that. But, when all was said and done, I'd have a hard-coded event pop up in the middle of a PBP somewhere that would make the whole sequence not make any sense.

Anyway, for some reason this whole subject seems like it's super top secret. No matter how many times it is mentioned (back in OOTP2007/8 and now OOTP9), I haven't seen a straight answer anywhere. Most of the time, this subject just goes silent with no input from Markus or any of the powers that be. How hard can it be to post an extract of the hard-coded lines? Markus gives us an almost fully customizable PBP file, but keeps the hard-coded stuff under wraps. I don't get it.

Cryomaniac · 06-24-2008, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dryfly07

Anyway, for some reason this whole subject seems like it's super top secret. No matter how many times it is mentioned (back in OOTP2007/8 and now OOTP9), I haven't seen a straight answer anywhere. Most of the time, this subject just goes silent with no input from Markus or any of the powers that be. How hard can it be to post an extract of the hard-coded lines? Markus gives us an almost fully customizable PBP file, but keeps the hard-coded stuff under wraps. I don't get it.

Yeah, that makes no sense to me either. Like I've said before, it makes no sense why we have to have hard coded PBP.

tysok · 06-24-2008, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dryfly07

Anyway, for some reason this whole subject seems like it's super top secret. No matter how many times it is mentioned (back in OOTP2007/8 and now OOTP9), I haven't seen a straight answer anywhere. Most of the time, this subject just goes silent with no input from Markus or any of the powers that be. How hard can it be to post an extract of the hard-coded lines? Markus gives us an almost fully customizable PBP file, but keeps the hard-coded stuff under wraps. I don't get it.

It's pretty darn hard. Markus sent the pbp code over to Battists during this beta. He spent quite some time going through and pulling out all the pieces that are hard coded pbp so we could look it over.

It's spread out all over in the pbp section of OOTPs code. What was pulled out is a big list of "sentences", and not all of them are ACTUALLY hard code pbp (they just looked like they might be). So even if what we were given was made available for you to look at, it wouldn't make any sense without a lot of studying pbp logs. Since you have to study the pbp logs to make what we saw make sense, might as well study pbp logs and see the hard code text that way instead - it'd make more sense and be easier all the way around.

There's nothing about the pbp that isn't a major pain, hard code or not.

Ambermonk · 06-24-2008, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

Can I ask what the reason for this is?

I suspect that the basic elements needed to process a game are hard-coded. This would insure that, no matter how bad an end-user messed things up, that the game could still be played.

Many of the basic mechanics of a game don't need to be adjusted, and would just clog up the file that did allow for adjustments (i.e., If a player flys out you can't adjust it to be a ground out).

I have two pages of adjustments that I have made to the PBP from the previous versions (I'm not shy about making "improvements

) but I've never had a desire to mess with the mechanics needed to make the program run correctly.

tysok · 06-24-2008, 03:46 PM

he hasn't been retired yet, going 2 for 2 with one RBI...

That's a hard code line. Most likely hard coded so it can be controlled better. So we wouldn't ever end up possibly with it saying he hasn't been retired yet, going 2 for 3. Or mentioning he has no RBI for the game.

Anaya is going home...
-----------
he scores...
-----------
Hunt has a double...
-----------
It's a two-run double by Charles Hunt.

Those are all hard code lines. There's not a whole lot of variation to add to that.

[228-11917] rips a liner...
over the third base bag...
McGilchrist is there...

The last 2 lines are hard code. Not much variation in the direction, the "is there" is a stupid line since he misses it 90+% of the time, but not much variation available for that type of play unless he's lunging or diving.

Most of the hard code is stuff that wouldn't have much variation, so it'd be calling from an xml category for no other reason than it isn't hard coded anymore, not for sake of variation. The downside is that the stupid lines can't get fixed unless Markus does it.

Cryomaniac · 06-24-2008, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambermonk

I suspect that the basic elements needed to process a game are hard-coded. This would insure that, no matter how bad an end-user messed things up, that the game could still be played.

Many of the basic mechanics of a game don't need to be adjusted, and would just clog up the file that did allow for adjustments (i.e., If a player flys out you can't adjust it to be a ground out).

I have two pages of adjustments that I have made to the PBP from the previous versions (I'm not shy about making "improvements

) but I've never had a desire to mess with the mechanics needed to make the program run correctly.

Not the point. It's our fault if we bork up the play by play.

tysok · 06-24-2008, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambermonk

I suspect that the basic elements needed to process a game are hard-coded. This would insure that, no matter how bad an end-user messed things up, that the game could still be played.

Many of the basic mechanics of a game don't need to be adjusted, and would just clog up the file that did allow for adjustments (i.e., If a player flys out you can't adjust it to be a ground out).

I have two pages of adjustments that I have made to the PBP from the previous versions (I'm not shy about making "improvements

) but I've never had a desire to mess with the mechanics needed to make the program run correctly.

The pbp is just a representation of what the game decided occurred. Every hard code line could be "!" and every line in the xml could read "HA!" and the game would still assign stats and simulate the game with no trouble.

You just might see the pbp laughing at you...
HA!
HA!
HA!
HA!
HA!
!

dryfly07 · 06-24-2008, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tysok

he hasn't been retired yet, going 2 for 2 with one RBI...

That's a hard code line. Most likely hard coded so it can be controlled better. So we wouldn't ever end up possibly with it saying he hasn't been retired yet, going 2 for 3. Or mentioning he has no RBI for the game.

Anaya is going home...
-----------
he scores...
-----------
Hunt has a double...
-----------
It's a two-run double by Charles Hunt.

Those are all hard code lines. There's not a whole lot of variation to add to that.

[228-11917] rips a liner...
over the third base bag...
McGilchrist is there...

The last 2 lines are hard code. Not much variation in the direction, the "is there" is a stupid line since he misses it 90+% of the time, but not much variation available for that type of play unless he's lunging or diving.

Most of the hard code is stuff that wouldn't have much variation, so it'd be calling from an xml category for no other reason than it isn't hard coded anymore, not for sake of variation. The downside is that the stupid lines can't get fixed unless Markus does it.

I understand what you are saying. And I'm sure Markus has a good reason to have hard-coded events in the game. But, just looking at what you posted here, all of these events could be in the XML file. The first example, just remove "he hasn't been retired yet." That's pretty obvious if in the XML you just say "Smith is 2 for 2 today with one RBI..." by using the right tokens. The other two examples seem to be events that are similarly covered already in the XML file, so I don't know what the purpose is of those being hard-coded.

Maybe I'm just too involved in this part of the game. I spent hours building a custom XML file for the last version that didn't work because of the hard-coded events. To me, hard-coded events are no different than a roster set builder finding out that no matter how they built a roster set, it would always include Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Frank Thomas by default, with no way to modify or delete them.

Eugene Church · 06-24-2008, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

Can I ask what the reason for this is?

Only Markus knows why the hard-code material is in PBP and News.

Other than Markus, tysok is the resident expert on PBP and News.

I sure if it were possible, tysok would work on the Hard-Coded material and make the game much better.

So far, it has not happened.

And I am sure Markus has some very good reasons for not stating why the Hard-Code is necessary.

dryfly07 · 07-02-2008, 02:25 PM

How do we get Markus to comment on this thread/topic?

Bump it to the top? (I guess I just did that)

Send him a PM?

Beg?

Wait indefinitely?

Eugene Church · 07-02-2008, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dryfly07

How do we get Markus to comment on this thread/topic?

Bump it to the top? (I guess I just did that)

Send him a PM?

Beg?

Wait indefinitely?

All you can do is hope he looks at your thread. He does on very rare occasions pop up with a reply or comment.

He is very, very busy taking care of bugs and there is just no way he can read all of the threads on all of the Forums and Subforums.

I think much of his day is spent fixing bugs reported in Bugzilla.

Cork55 · 07-02-2008, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dryfly07

How do we get Markus to comment on this thread/topic?

Bump it to the top? (I guess I just did that)

Send him a PM?

Beg?

Wait indefinitely?

PbP is the red headed step child of OOTP. Having also worked as part of the PbP text team for the last 2 betas, I would not hold my breath while waiting for significant improvements to PbP.

That being said, if one looks at what is/was possible to change, then it is safe to say that Tysok and the PbP team have just about made the OOTP PbP the best it can be given it's current limitations.

-Cork55

06-23-2008, 07:48 PM	#1
dryfly07 Bat Boy Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 18	PBP - hard-coded events in OOTP9? I haven't purchased OOTP9 yet, so I haven't been able to look into this myself... Does OOTP9 still have hard-coded PBP or news, i.e. end of inning commentary? Or is everything contained in the XML file now?

06-24-2008, 03:46 PM	#11
tysok Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,925	he hasn't been retired yet, going 2 for 2 with one RBI... That's a hard code line. Most likely hard coded so it can be controlled better. So we wouldn't ever end up possibly with it saying he hasn't been retired yet, going 2 for 3. Or mentioning he has no RBI for the game. Anaya is going home... ----------- he scores... ----------- Hunt has a double... ----------- It's a two-run double by Charles Hunt. Those are all hard code lines. There's not a whole lot of variation to add to that. [228-11917] rips a liner... over the third base bag... McGilchrist is there... The last 2 lines are hard code. Not much variation in the direction, the "is there" is a stupid line since he misses it 90+% of the time, but not much variation available for that type of play unless he's lunging or diving. Most of the hard code is stuff that wouldn't have much variation, so it'd be calling from an xml category for no other reason than it isn't hard coded anymore, not for sake of variation. The downside is that the stupid lines can't get fixed unless Markus does it. __________________ I don't know about you, but as for me, the question has already been answered: Should we be here? Yes! Jack Buck, September 17, 2001 It's what you learn after you know it all that counts. I firmly believe that any man's finest hour... is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious. (Vince Lombardi) I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. (George S. Patton)

06-23-2008, 09:39 PM	#4
Raidergoo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 9,005	You can ask it, but don't expect an answer.

06-23-2008, 10:49 PM	#5
dryfly07 Bat Boy Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 18	That's unfortunate. I wonder why the hard-coded events can't be pulled into the XML file? I've seen this with other games as well. It makes me think there's certain things that have to stay in the program file for the game to work. Eugene, do you know if the hard-coded events are published anywhere? It would be nice to at least be able to reference them when editing the XML file, so I don't end up with a screwy PBP, which is what happened when I edited the OOTP2007/8 XML file.

07-02-2008, 02:25 PM	#16
dryfly07 Bat Boy Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 18	How do we get Markus to comment on this thread/topic? Bump it to the top? (I guess I just did that) Send him a PM? Beg? Wait indefinitely?