How's the pbp?

tysok · 06-28-2008, 05:27 PM

Now that it's slowed down a little bit, maybe this question comes through better.

Seen some posts about it here and there, but anyone else, how did we do?
Any complaints like what we've seen in the past?

Any suggestions that we could now? Can't do the stat stuff, and most things people talk about with the pbp aren't possible. But there are things we can do and have done to put a little more life to it.

For example, last year we fixed it so a dropped third strike worked right. Catcher won't always tag the batter if the rules wouldn't allow him to run anyhow... and added the odd occasion where the catcher can actually step on home to finish the strikeout.
We can work with the personality ratings, have a greedy player do something out of the ordinary, or an intelligent player etc.
We can deal with balls and strikes, runners on base, flyball and groundball directions, pitch type, age, mlb service time, upcoming free agents, power, speed, player quality, and season performance.

If you have any thoughts on something that might use a condition like those to put some more "life" into the pbp feel free to mention it, I'll check it out and see if it's able to go in. We did a lot of work with the "great" plays and the batter introductions this year using these conditions... been working through the last few weeks seeing if anything else might work.

Ambermonk · 06-28-2008, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tysok

Now that it's slowed down a little bit, maybe this question comes through better.

Seen some posts about it here and there, but anyone else, how did we do?
Any complaints like what we've seen in the past?

Any suggestions that we could now? Can't do the stat stuff, and most things people talk about with the pbp aren't possible. But there are things we can do and have done to put a little more life to it.

If you have any thoughts on something that might use a condition like those to put some more "life" into the pbp feel free to mention it, I'll check it out and see if it's able to go in. We did a lot of work with the "great" plays and the batter introductions this year using these conditions... been working through the last few weeks seeing if anything else might work.

As mentioned in an earlier thread, with the toning down of the histrionics and if the PBP can be synchronized with the ball flight - these will represent a fine improvement over the previous version and provide a stepping stone for the next version (or a patch for this version).

To my mind there is still too much teasing with the PBP giving the wrong result on a close play, and then reversing itself (I will eventually remove some of these). I believe also that there are still too many "if "A," then "B" commentaries (i.e., multi-line PBPs where the end result is always the same). For example: how many times does an outfielder crash into the wall, fall to the ground and drop the ball?

One issue that was brought up last year and still remains unresolved is the PBP order of events during a stolen base attempt. The PBP still ignores the attempted steal results while it discusses the minutia involved with the current pitch before returning to the steal attempt.

tysok · 06-29-2008, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambermonk

To my mind there is still too much teasing with the PBP giving the wrong result on a close play, and then reversing itself (I will eventually remove some of these).

We took out a few of these... and bulked up some of the other categories. If you can provide some examples of these I'll look into it again, but the few left in that I know of aren't used very often at all (I mean the highest used object was 15 times in 2430 games).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambermonk

I believe also that there are still too many "if "A," then "B" commentaries (i.e., multi-line PBPs where the end result is always the same). For example: how many times does an outfielder crash into the wall, fall to the ground and drop the ball?

There are a lot of multi lines that are just extensions, meaning there isn't any occasion where the outfielder would crash the wall and drop the ball - but him crashing the wall, falling to the ground, having made the catch shouldn't be happening very often either. I wonder if there could be an opposite for this though... I'd have little control over it, but maybe we could get some in. The only way to get a different result is if it's pointed out, I can't go through everything and make sure, so if you see other examples point them out and I'll see what I can do. I'll check on this one though...

BrianN · 06-29-2008, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambermonk

outfielder crash into the wall, fall to the ground and drop the ball?

What? He dropped the ball! Stop playing with my mind!!!!!

Eugene Church · 06-29-2008, 02:17 AM

Does the first baseman ever drop a bad throw in OOTP9 or does he always catch it as in the past?

Do the corner outfielders and shortstop ever catch a foul fly?

I saw where the second baseman finally caught one in a game I played.

Eugene Church · 06-29-2008, 02:20 AM

Kudos to tysok, pstrickert and others that work on PBP.
You done good!
Overall the PBP looked fine in Build 9.27.
Much improved over 2007. I did not play OOTP8.
I played out three games in single-pitch mode.

I did not see one single typo or error or PBP that ran off the screen.
Great job.

Markus has finally added in the second baseman catching foul flies. He caught two in three games. Hope he added in the shortstop, left fielder and right fielder. Still haven't seen them catch a foul fly.

There were three outstanding plays in the three games. This is much improved over 2007 when there were 5-10 a game.

I didn't see a lot of infield hits. When there was one, the PBP gave a clear indication why the runner was safe. The shortstop caught it on the outfield grass and had to set himself, then threw...but not in time.

In the past a player would get an infield hit when it seemed to just be a routine out. Many times I was surprised by the infield hit. The PBP did not indicate any reason for it being beat out.

I think you have made this part of the game much better.

Need more variety on infield popups.
Need more variety on Hard-Coded player introductions that indicate years of experience.

I don't like the hints being on the In-Game Screen when the game creates a picture for a player. They are an intrusion to me and a waste. They are not on the screen long enough to read them. I hope there is an option to disable them. I disabled the player pictures in the Game Setup when I created the league, but it still created them on demand.

However, the guys have greatly increased the number of items in the "Hints". Very much improved and interesting, too. Kudos to those guys, too.

We need to figure out a way to put some color into the game PBP.

But I guess that will be up to Markus and the Hard-Code.

I sure do wish he would use our suggestions to fix the Hard-Code PBP and add more variety to it. This is one major area of the game that needs to be fixed.

Ambermonk · 06-29-2008, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tysok

We took out a few of these... and bulked up some of the other categories. If you can provide some examples of these I'll look into it again, but the few left in that I know of aren't used very often at all (I mean the highest used object was 15 times in 2430 games).

I've only played about 30 games (due to program bugs) but I've had several reversed calls on pickoff throws to third base.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tysok

There are a lot of multi lines that are just extensions, meaning there isn't any occasion where the outfielder would crash the wall and drop the ball - but him crashing the wall, falling to the ground, having made the catch shouldn't be happening very often either. I wonder if there could be an opposite for this though... I'd have little control over it, but maybe we could get some in. The only way to get a different result is if it's pointed out, I can't go through everything and make sure, so if you see other examples point them out and I'll see what I can do. I'll check on this one though...

If you have the "crashing into the wall" out in the PBP as an out, can't you also have a multi-line hit that starts the same way as the "crashing into the wall" out?

Ceej · 06-29-2008, 07:41 AM

Well, I come from DMB which is the gold standard for pbp.... version 9c of DMB is still the rabbit to chase in my book, but I would say OOTP's pbp compares pretty well to DMB v8 right now. It was with DMB 9 that they added most of the park-specific plays as well, and all of that really made DMB's rather dry in-game experience more fun.

A collection of random tidbits -

One thing I haven't seen yet is a player with a very good error rating muffing the ball and the commentator mentioning that.... what I mean is the pbp could say something like "an uncharacteristic error by (name) out there" to remind the audience that they just saw something unusual if they're not familiar with the player in question.

One line I feel like I'm seeing a little too often is the one that goes "he's going to want to move that runner into scoring position". Nothing wrong with the line, but it could do with some variety.

The line in the original post about "working with the personality ratings" instantly reminded me of that notorious incident when Billy Martin yanked Reggie Jackson from the game, accusing him of dogging it on a play in the outfield. Work Ethic-specific play: how about it? Especially in blowouts. "(fielder) strides over to the ball rather casually..." and a very speedy/intelligent player might even be able to take an extra base.

On the flip side, when a Pete Rose type, a very competitive (strong desire for winning team) player with a strong work ethic draws a simple walk, he doesn't just stroll to first base - he sprints or hustles.

There's doesn't seem to be any rating for hot-headedness or Bill Lee space cadet status, but couldn't certain personality traits be melded together for a general idea of whether the guy is a "jerk" or not? A hot-head jerk would argue/express displeasure with calls (and rack up more career ejections/suspensions), while your John Olerud/Ernie Banks types never would.

Cork55 · 06-29-2008, 01:31 PM

Ceej,

The line about moving the runner into scoring position is one of the many hard coded PbP lines that we have been trying to get Markus to "un-hardcode". Doing that would allow for much more variation.

Unfortunately Markus has not seen the light yet.

-Cork55

tysok · 06-29-2008, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambermonk

If you have the "crashing into the wall" out in the PBP as an out, can't you also have a multi-line hit that starts the same way as the "crashing into the wall" out?

I looked at this last night and there's only actually 2 "crash" calls in the pbp. They're both robbing a home run. There are definitely others like this, just not crashing into the wall.

There isn't any that start with the player hitting the ball... leading to him doing something spectacular. The swing, the hit, the ball flying, the fielder charging can all be different pieces... then you have the object where he dives, catches it, rolls, gets upended and stands on his face for a second, then comes up WITH THE BALL!

So the problem is I'd have to find a category where him doing all of that and then dropping the ball would fit around whatever else may come up around it - and still look good. Not easy in a lot of cases, but think him crashing the wall and dropping the ball may be possible - still looking at it.

Ambermonk · 06-29-2008, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tysok

I looked at this last night and there's only actually 2 "crash" calls in the pbp. They're both robbing a home run. There are definitely others like this, just not crashing into the wall.

There isn't any that start with the player hitting the ball... leading to him doing something spectacular. The swing, the hit, the ball flying, the fielder charging can all be different pieces... then you have the object where he dives, catches it, rolls, gets upended and stands on his face for a second, then comes up WITH THE BALL!

So the problem is I'd have to find a category where him doing all of that and then dropping the ball would fit around whatever else may come up around it - and still look good. Not easy in a lot of cases, but think him crashing the wall and dropping the ball may be possible - still looking at it.

Next time the items come up, I'll try to post the examples for you.

Another change I plan to make is to add a lot more variety to infielders who "gobble" up the ball. There are too many lines with that word. I plan to exchange some of them for things like...

he scoops it up...he pounces on it...he grabs it, etc.

Pirates Fan · 06-29-2008, 03:20 PM

Is it my imagination or are there still a lot of foul balls in play-by-play?

(I've been watching exhibition games, not managing real games.)

And if it's less than earlier versions, thanks, but is there any way to tone it down? A foul ball is not my idea of a complete play.

Ambermonk · 06-29-2008, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambermonk

Next time the items come up, I'll try to post the examples for you.

Here's another teaser - as promised!

PhillieFever · 06-29-2008, 09:35 PM

First of all,I love the job you all do with the PBP.But here are some suggestions when it comes to infield hits that may come in handy.

1. Groundball,deep to short this is going to be trouble he is.....safe

2. slow roller down the(right field/left field) line....they're not gonna get em...safe at first base with an infield single.

3. groundball poked just past the pitcher...he better hurry....not in time,safe at first base.

These to me do a little bit better of a job when it comes to infield hits.Also I love the old school style of broadcasting which is especially useful in a game like this which basicly simulates an old time radio broadast.I'm sure you could find copys of old radio broadcasts to give you some ideas.And one more thing, "Can O' Corn" love it.

tysok · 06-29-2008, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambermonk

Here's another teaser - as promised!

That's the only object that reverses the call in that category, and there are 22 possibilities. Can't get any fewer than that and still have a call like that.

There was a problem with that object though, did you not notice that the RUNNER at third dropped the throw?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

First of all,I love the job you all do with the PBP.But here are some suggestions when it comes to infield hits that may come in handy.

1. Groundball,deep to short this is going to be trouble he is.....safe

2. slow roller down the(right field/left field) line....they're not gonna get em...safe at first base with an infield single.

3. groundball poked just past the pitcher...he better hurry....not in time,safe at first base.

These to me do a little bit better of a job when it comes to infield hits.Also I love the old school style of broadcasting which is especially useful in a game like this which basicly simulates an old time radio broadast.I'm sure you could find copys of old radio broadcasts to give you some ideas.And one more thing, "Can O' Corn" love it.

Unfortunately, infield hits aren't a single category. They're made up of 4 or 5 categories strung together... so they can't be tailored like that. Hopefully they'll get better though... just have to do so in a different direction.

Ambermonk · 06-29-2008, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tysok

There was a problem with that object though, did you not notice that the RUNNER at third dropped the throw?

No, I hadn't noticed that. Good catch

Ambermonk · 07-02-2008, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambermonk

Next time the items come up, I'll try to post the examples for you.

Here's the next one...

Ambermonk · 07-02-2008, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambermonk

Next time the items come up, I'll try to post the examples for you.

Here's the next one...

tysok · 07-02-2008, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambermonk

Here's the next one...

All the same piece. I've conditioned it for if there's 2 outs already. And set it to appear only once per game session. Should tone it down enough.

pstrickert · 07-02-2008, 03:18 PM

I hope tysok will chime in. In the meantime, Ambermonk, I wonder if we have a PbP "recycling" problem. Perhaps the PbP "marks" a line when it is used, so as not to reuse it. But then, after closing and reopening OOTP, the PbP is reset, so it freely re-uses the same PbP lines from a previous game(s).

06-28-2008, 05:27 PM	#1
tysok Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,925	How's the pbp? Now that it's slowed down a little bit, maybe this question comes through better. Seen some posts about it here and there, but anyone else, how did we do? Any complaints like what we've seen in the past? Any suggestions that we could now? Can't do the stat stuff, and most things people talk about with the pbp aren't possible. But there are things we can do and have done to put a little more life to it. For example, last year we fixed it so a dropped third strike worked right. Catcher won't always tag the batter if the rules wouldn't allow him to run anyhow... and added the odd occasion where the catcher can actually step on home to finish the strikeout. We can work with the personality ratings, have a greedy player do something out of the ordinary, or an intelligent player etc. We can deal with balls and strikes, runners on base, flyball and groundball directions, pitch type, age, mlb service time, upcoming free agents, power, speed, player quality, and season performance. If you have any thoughts on something that might use a condition like those to put some more "life" into the pbp feel free to mention it, I'll check it out and see if it's able to go in. We did a lot of work with the "great" plays and the batter introductions this year using these conditions... been working through the last few weeks seeing if anything else might work. __________________ I don't know about you, but as for me, the question has already been answered: Should we be here? Yes! Jack Buck, September 17, 2001 It's what you learn after you know it all that counts. I firmly believe that any man's finest hour... is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious. (Vince Lombardi) I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. (George S. Patton)

06-29-2008, 02:20 AM	#6
Eugene Church Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 36,095	Kudos to tysok, pstrickert and others that work on PBP. You done good! Overall the PBP looked fine in Build 9.27. Much improved over 2007. I did not play OOTP8. I played out three games in single-pitch mode. I did not see one single typo or error or PBP that ran off the screen. Great job. Markus has finally added in the second baseman catching foul flies. He caught two in three games. Hope he added in the shortstop, left fielder and right fielder. Still haven't seen them catch a foul fly. There were three outstanding plays in the three games. This is much improved over 2007 when there were 5-10 a game. I didn't see a lot of infield hits. When there was one, the PBP gave a clear indication why the runner was safe. The shortstop caught it on the outfield grass and had to set himself, then threw...but not in time. In the past a player would get an infield hit when it seemed to just be a routine out. Many times I was surprised by the infield hit. The PBP did not indicate any reason for it being beat out. I think you have made this part of the game much better. Need more variety on infield popups. Need more variety on Hard-Coded player introductions that indicate years of experience. I don't like the hints being on the In-Game Screen when the game creates a picture for a player. They are an intrusion to me and a waste. They are not on the screen long enough to read them. I hope there is an option to disable them. I disabled the player pictures in the Game Setup when I created the league, but it still created them on demand. However, the guys have greatly increased the number of items in the "Hints". Very much improved and interesting, too. Kudos to those guys, too. We need to figure out a way to put some color into the game PBP. But I guess that will be up to Markus and the Hard-Code. I sure do wish he would use our suggestions to fix the Hard-Code PBP and add more variety to it. This is one major area of the game that needs to be fixed. Last edited by Eugene Church; 06-29-2008 at 02:26 AM.

06-29-2008, 07:41 AM	#8
Ceej Minors (Double A) Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 190	Well, I come from DMB which is the gold standard for pbp.... version 9c of DMB is still the rabbit to chase in my book, but I would say OOTP's pbp compares pretty well to DMB v8 right now. It was with DMB 9 that they added most of the park-specific plays as well, and all of that really made DMB's rather dry in-game experience more fun. A collection of random tidbits - One thing I haven't seen yet is a player with a very good error rating muffing the ball and the commentator mentioning that.... what I mean is the pbp could say something like "an uncharacteristic error by (name) out there" to remind the audience that they just saw something unusual if they're not familiar with the player in question. One line I feel like I'm seeing a little too often is the one that goes "he's going to want to move that runner into scoring position". Nothing wrong with the line, but it could do with some variety. The line in the original post about "working with the personality ratings" instantly reminded me of that notorious incident when Billy Martin yanked Reggie Jackson from the game, accusing him of dogging it on a play in the outfield. Work Ethic-specific play: how about it? Especially in blowouts. "(fielder) strides over to the ball rather casually..." and a very speedy/intelligent player might even be able to take an extra base. On the flip side, when a Pete Rose type, a very competitive (strong desire for winning team) player with a strong work ethic draws a simple walk, he doesn't just stroll to first base - he sprints or hustles. There's doesn't seem to be any rating for hot-headedness or Bill Lee space cadet status, but couldn't certain personality traits be melded together for a general idea of whether the guy is a "jerk" or not? A hot-head jerk would argue/express displeasure with calls (and rack up more career ejections/suspensions), while your John Olerud/Ernie Banks types never would. Last edited by Ceej; 06-29-2008 at 07:56 AM.

06-29-2008, 09:35 PM	#14
PhillieFever Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Elk Twp. NJ Posts: 6,763	First of all,I love the job you all do with the PBP.But here are some suggestions when it comes to infield hits that may come in handy. 1. Groundball,deep to short this is going to be trouble he is.....safe 2. slow roller down the(right field/left field) line....they're not gonna get em...safe at first base with an infield single. 3. groundball poked just past the pitcher...he better hurry....not in time,safe at first base. These to me do a little bit better of a job when it comes to infield hits.Also I love the old school style of broadcasting which is especially useful in a game like this which basicly simulates an old time radio broadast.I'm sure you could find copys of old radio broadcasts to give you some ideas.And one more thing, "Can O' Corn" love it. Last edited by PhillieFever; 06-29-2008 at 09:43 PM.

06-29-2008, 02:17 AM	#5
Eugene Church Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 36,095	Does the first baseman ever drop a bad throw in OOTP9 or does he always catch it as in the past? Do the corner outfielders and shortstop ever catch a foul fly? I saw where the second baseman finally caught one in a game I played.

06-29-2008, 01:31 PM	#9
Cork55 All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oregon, WI Posts: 1,576	Ceej, The line about moving the runner into scoring position is one of the many hard coded PbP lines that we have been trying to get Markus to "un-hardcode". Doing that would allow for much more variation. Unfortunately Markus has not seen the light yet. -Cork55

06-29-2008, 03:20 PM	#12
Pirates Fan Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 65	Is it my imagination or are there still a lot of foul balls in play-by-play? (I've been watching exhibition games, not managing real games.) And if it's less than earlier versions, thanks, but is there any way to tone it down? A foul ball is not my idea of a complete play.

07-02-2008, 03:18 PM	#20
pstrickert Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 16,545	I hope tysok will chime in. In the meantime, Ambermonk, I wonder if we have a PbP "recycling" problem. Perhaps the PbP "marks" a line when it is used, so as not to reuse it. But then, after closing and reopening OOTP, the PbP is reset, so it freely re-uses the same PbP lines from a previous game(s).