OOTP/Cal Ripken Baseball-Discuss

[conception]

Originally Posted by David Watts

My favorite features of OOTP7 & 8 are by far the ability to choose instant PBP and short PBP. I play out all my teams games and both features allow me do finish a season a whole lot faster. For me graphics would be a cool feature for big games, all-star games and the post season, but for the most part, I would play the game without graphics. I guess that makes me a DIMWIT. Of course, my lack of a need for graphics probably has something to do with my age also, I am 43 years old, and grew up playing this type game with dice, charts, and a scoresheet that my dad printed at his office when no one was looking.

I do have one question, it has always seemed to me that the majority of the people that love this game, sim rather than play out games, therefore why the big need for graphics and for that matter sound?

Of course, as long as this game does not require us to purchase season disks, it will always hold back when it comes to solving bugs and problems.

I sim the majority but "watch at least ten games a year. Usually when i have to do some HW or something or read a book. Checking in on the actual games lets you get a true feel of how your team is doing and where your flaws are. So even though I sim to bring about the real decision making periods more often (offseasons and such) and because I like having history, I still do a lot of watching.

[Ktulu]

I do have one question, it has always seemed to me that the majority of the people that love this game, sim rather than play out games, therefore why the big need for graphics and for that matter sound?

It probably has a lot to do with the fact that playing out games can be pretty boring... press "1" read result, rinse, repeat. Without graphics and sound there isn't much of an atmosphere and text pbp becomes predictable, so a lot of excitement is missing. Playing out games would be a lot more fun if you could hear the crowd, the crack of the bat, and see the drive to the fence as you wonder if it's got enough to go out.

As it stands now I only play out playoff games and the odd regular season game.

[conception]

Originally Posted by Ktulu

It probably has a lot to do with the fact that playing out games can be pretty boring... press "1" read result, rinse, repeat. Without graphics and sound there isn't much of an atmosphere and text pbp becomes predictable, so a lot of excitement is missing. Playing out games would be a lot more fun if you could hear the crowd, the crack of the bat, and see the drive to the fence as you wonder if it's got enough to go out.

As it stands now I only play out playoff games and the odd regular season game.

What you've said is true. There really isn't an incredible incentive to actually playing out the games. With a little bit of tweaking, watching the games could be a very exciting portion of the game.

Even as is, some of the games that I "watch" turn out to be quite exciting. Unfortunately these are few and far between.

The biggest issue that I see with a graphic system is not the graphics themselves, ie player models and animations and such, it may be incorporating them into sometimes non-existent or in many cases simple jpeg fantasy stadiums. Creating a fantasy league with stadiums would either have to be done with stock stadiums, or with some sort of create-a-stadium feature. It seems to me that these stadiums would end up rather bland and I would almost hate to lose my fantasy stadiums I have accumulated, which breath new life to the game through unique park factors and locations, etc.

[ctorg]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I do have one question, it has always seemed to me that the majority of the people that love this game, sim rather than play out games, therefore why the big need for graphics and for that matter sound?

I sim most games, but I would not sim as much if the in-game stuff were more interesting. Part of the reason I sim is that I'm still not a big fan of how the in-game gameplay works. I don't like that you have no independent control of various elements (e.g. telling the runners to go and the batter to take or swing should be two independent things IMO), and the screens aren't that interesting to look at. I don't get the same sense of anxiety and tension that I get from watching real baseball.

And if there's anything I want in my relaxing downtime, it's anxiety and tension.

[Antonin]

Me: Zero (as in "absolutely no") interest in OOTP baseball going further down the graphics road.

I like to ponder, think, go from screen to screen, check player stats even while I'm playing out a game, spend half an hour trying to decide on my lineups, minimize the screen and go have dinner with the wife, etc.

To me, going from Front Page Sports Baseball Pro 96 (which I still have on my shelf) to Sammy Sosa High Heat or whatever it was called to Baseball Mogul to Season Ticket Baseball to OOTP5 and on to OOTP8 was a progression. I feel I'm finally playing a grown-up baseball game that suits my temperament and does what I want in a sports management sim.

To me, a lot of graphics-based sports games seem more like interactive movies, and I don't want to play an interactive movie baseball game on my computer. I want to manage a team. If I want action in my baseball I watch a game on TV or, even better, go down to the old ball yard and watch a live game.

Since discovering text-based sports sims I've just fallen in love with them. I'll never play another type of sports game.

I know FM had gone the 2-D graphics route, and some people over there are even calling for even more graphical representation, but those of us who spend time on the SI boards know that implementing that 2-D engine has been easier said than done. Several versions after it was introduced, people over there are still complaining loudly about how the games are graphically depicted.

I downloaded the demo of the latest version of Puresim, and while I initially enjoyed the graphic representation of the baseball being hit into left-right-center field, it got old rather quickly.

Some people here would prefer OOTP baseball to become more graphics-oriented, and that's OK. If the game goes in that direction, those of us like me who prefer our text-based sims to remain text-based can just continue to play older versions. OOTP8 is pretty darned good. Heck, I even play OOTP5 from time to time.

[conception]

Originally Posted by Antonin

Me: Zero (as in "absolutely no") interest in OOTP baseball going further down the graphics road.

I like to ponder, think, go from screen to screen, check player stats even while I'm playing out a game, spend half an hour trying to decide on my lineups, minimize the screen and go have dinner with the wife, etc.

To me, going from Front Page Sports Baseball Pro 96 (which I still have on my shelf) to Sammy Sosa High Heat or whatever it was called to Baseball Mogul to Season Ticket Baseball to OOTP5 and on to OOTP8 was a progression. I feel I'm finally playing a grown-up baseball game that suits my temperament and does what I want in a sports management sim.

To me, a lot of graphics-based sports games seem more like interactive movies, and I don't want to play an interactive movie baseball game on my computer. I want to manage a team. If I want action in my baseball I watch a game on TV or, even better, go down to the old ball yard and watch a live game.

Since discovering text-based sports sims I've just fallen in love with them. I'll never play another type of sports game.

I know FM had gone the 2-D graphics route, and some people over there are even calling for even more graphical representation, but those of us who spend time on the SI boards know that implementing that 2-D engine has been easier said than done. Several versions after it was introduced, people over there are still complaining loudly about how the games are graphically depicted.

I downloaded the demo of the latest version of Puresim, and while I initially enjoyed the graphic representation of the baseball being hit into left-right-center field, it got old rather quickly.

Some people here would prefer OOTP baseball to become more graphics-oriented, and that's OK. If the game goes in that direction, those of us like me who prefer our text-based sims to remain text-based can just continue to play older versions. OOTP8 is pretty darned good. Heck, I even play OOTP5 from time to time.

You're entitled to your opinion, but would newer versions of OOTP containing graphics hinder your ability to enjoy the other amazing features of this game? I will always prefer OOTP to have what made it great- the text based management, incredible customization, and in depth MLB rules and options. But if a graphic engine was included, it wouldn't make these features un-important.

[professor ape]

I'm in the camp that feels that the game should not try to go for full blown graphics as it would inevitably be a BIG disappointment. However, I do believe that there is an opportunity to implement simple ball flight graphics.

I am amazed at how much seeing a simplistic ball flying around on the ESPN gametrack with an X showing where the ball landed/was fielded adds to the drama of tracking a game on the web.

Big kudos to BM2007 for adding Face Gen. That alone added so much to my fictional leagues. Being able to associate my players to faces gives the game much more personality. Adding just a little bit of life and motion to the plays would go a long way.

[spark240]

Originally Posted by Ktulu

It probably has a lot to do with the fact that playing out games can be pretty boring... press "1" read result, rinse, repeat. Without graphics and sound there isn't much of an atmosphere and text pbp becomes predictable, so a lot of excitement is missing. Playing out games would be a lot more fun if you could hear the crowd, the crack of the bat, and see the drive to the fence as you wonder if it's got enough to go out.

Here's the thing, though... whatever kind of graphical/audio display there is, can only be based on the same output data that we're presently reading. It seems to me that while animation and sound might feel like a qualitative improvement (to some people) at first, once everyone's accustomed to it, it will have pretty much the same interest, or lack of interest, that the text presently has. Press "1," watch result, repeat.

I'm pretty sure I can imagine a better "atmosphere" than anything that any computer game is likely to feature in the next several years.

However, I'm not opposed to trajectory graphics like professor ape describes. If we have that, I'd like to also have drag-and-drop positioning of fielders.

[Gerry58]

Originally Posted by Raderick

WWSM/FM gets a free pass because it's the best sports simulator on the market and they can afford to add 2D graphics. As for Puresim, it's, well, not a very good simulator to begin with.

I disagree. I play both (FM and OOTP) and OOTP is way better. FM is not a realistic soccer simulator: probably because soccer is harder to simulate than baseball (you don't have official stats other than the common ones, for example) but IMO OOTP is overall a better sim.

I also couldn't care less about graphics. I know what OOTP is and what it gives to me and i like it so.


Gerry

[Antonin]

Originally Posted by Ktulu

It probably has a lot to do with the fact that playing out games can be pretty boring... press "1" read result, rinse, repeat. Without graphics and sound there isn't much of an atmosphere and text pbp becomes predictable, so a lot of excitement is missing. Playing out games would be a lot more fun if you could hear the crowd, the crack of the bat, and see the drive to the fence as you wonder if it's got enough to go out...

The thing is, even live baseball is not the most exciting thing to watch, if what you are looking for is a constant action and constant movement. Unless one is really in tune with the subtleties of the game, it can often seem like a lot of nothing happening very slowly. I've heard young people call it "boring." I've tried to get nephews to watch a game with me and they just don't want to know. They don't get it at all.

Even many of us who truly love baseball will admit that it is a game you do not have to pay extremely close attention to for nine full innings.

I for one love the game of baseball as it is, but in recent years there have been proposals from some so-called modern thinkers to make new rules to "speed up" the game.

[Antonin]

Originally Posted by conception

You're entitled to your opinion, but would newer versions of OOTP containing graphics hinder your ability to enjoy the other amazing features of this game? I will always prefer OOTP to have what made it great- the text based management, incredible customization, and in depth MLB rules and options. But if a graphic engine was included, it wouldn't make these features un-important.

Having a resource-hogging graphics engine in the game would be OK if I could turn it off and enjoy those very elements that you say (and I agree) made the game great.

But I must say it amuses me when people say they love OOTP baseball but wish it had so-and-so graphical element that such-and-such game has. Wouldn't it be easier to just play such-and-such game instead of changing OOTP to be more like them?

Those games do what they do very well, and more power to them. OOTP does what it does very well. I would rather Markus just continued to further refine what is already a great and utterly unique game.

[Sirhawk]

I totally love the idea of OOTP plus the Weaver graphics for the perfect blend of graphics and statistical realism.

One other note: One thing I LOVED about Weaver on my Amiga back in '87 was the "build your own ballpark", which you can do in OOTP, but with a graphic implementation of that.....wow...now that would be cool. I remember making ones up that were similar to the team I created, ie I had a team called the Convicts and their stadium was called the "Jail House" All in grey and huge walls around 25' around in a grey dome. Talk about customizing your own baseball world

Sirhawk

[johnnybourbon]

Originally Posted by Antonin

...Unless one is really in tune with the subtleties of the game, it can often seem like a lot of nothing happening very slowly. I've heard young people call it "boring." I've tried to get nephews to watch a game with me and they just don't want to know. They don't get it at all....

I for one love the game of baseball as it is, but in recent years there have been proposals from some so-called modern thinkers to make new rules to "speed up" the game.

Good point. Baseball is, unfortunately, one of the most boring sports in the world to someone who is not familiar with it, maybe even more so than golf.

I took my step kids to their first baseball game last July (they were 5 and 8 at the time). They didnt make it through the game. One fell asleep, the other got whiney that it was too boring. In November, I took them to their first hockey game. They loved it, now watch games with me on TV, have been to 3 more games live, want to go to more, and even want to learn how to ice skate just so they can play.
I can't speak for everyones kids that this is the case (or why more kids are interested in other sports other than baseball), but, mine would much rather be on the move ALL the time.

[ctorg]

Originally Posted by Sirhawk

I totally love the idea of OOTP plus the Weaver graphics for the perfect blend of graphics and statistical realism.

One other note: One thing I LOVED about Weaver on my Amiga back in '87 was the "build your own ballpark", which you can do in OOTP, but with a graphic implementation of that.....wow...now that would be cool. I remember making ones up that were similar to the team I created, ie I had a team called the Convicts and their stadium was called the "Jail House" All in grey and huge walls around 25' around in a grey dome. Talk about customizing your own baseball world

Sirhawk

I know Markus is big on that and it has been mentioned as something that will come in the relatively not too far off future in OOTP. I suspect that it will come along with graphics whenever graphics come.

[ctorg]

Originally Posted by johnnybourbon

Good point. Baseball is, unfortunately, one of the most boring sports in the world to someone who is not familiar with it, maybe even more so than golf.

I took my step kids to their first baseball game last July (they were 5 and 8 at the time). They didnt make it through the game. One fell asleep, the other got whiney that it was too boring. In November, I took them to their first hockey game. They loved it, now watch games with me on TV, have been to 3 more games live, want to go to more, and even want to learn how to ice skate just so they can play.
I can't speak for everyones kids that this is the case (or why more kids are interested in other sports other than baseball), but, mine would much rather be on the move ALL the time.

Yeah, my 5-year-old isn't too interested when I watch baseball, which is the only sport I watch. But when we were at my parents' and basketball was on, he perked up.

[kagnew35]

Originally Posted by Sirhawk

I totally love the idea of OOTP plus the Weaver graphics for the perfect blend of graphics and statistical realism.

One other note: One thing I LOVED about Weaver on my Amiga back in '87 was the "build your own ballpark", which you can do in OOTP, but with a graphic implementation of that.....wow...now that would be cool. I remember making ones up that were similar to the team I created, ie I had a team called the Convicts and their stadium was called the "Jail House" All in grey and huge walls around 25' around in a grey dome. Talk about customizing your own baseball world

Sirhawk

I will never get over the death of the Amiga, head and shoulders above any mac or ms machine.