Sabermetrics are a bunch of malarkey . . .

[Simmo13]

Didn't Malarkey pitch for the 1908 Giants? hope his name isn't being taken in vain.

[atlbrave1]

Originally Posted by Jestre

But this thread is a comparison of stats produced, not potential stats. Which is why the wrong guy won the MVP. VORP and RC do not measure actual production, just potential production. I will take real production over theoretical production.

The issue is that your "real" production is influenced by factors outside of the players in question. If the statistics were produced under the exact same conditions, then yes, the production matters. The reason for stats like VORP is to take away the outside factors.

Here is an example:
Hideki Matsui (2007): .285/.367/.488 25 HR 103 RBI 100 R 634 PA
Lance Berkman (2007): .278/.386/.510 34 HR 102 RBI 95 R 668 PA

These guys "produced" almost exactly the same.

However, how they produced is a bit different.

When Matsui came to the plate, the had 483 Runners on Base.

When Berkman came to the plate, he had 413 Runners on Base.

So who was more productive?

[Left-handed Badger]

Originally Posted by Jestre

Then VORP and RC should include production as a ratio. If those same two guys each had an opportunity with the bases loaded and the bases empty and the one guy hit a grandslam and struck out with the bases empty and the other guy hit a homer with the bases empty and struck out with the bases loaded then who is more valuable???? By VORP and RC they are equal.

And that to me points out the flaws of VORP and RC. At least to the level of taking any importance out of it. Which OOTP MVP votes seem to. There is no way a solo job is as important as grandslam.

Personally, if we are going to place importance on "lesser" stats. It should be say what they do in Close/Late situations.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by Jestre

Your right, cuz you think someone who went 4 for 5 with 2 doubles and no runs and no rbi's is more valuable to his team than someone who went 1 for 5 with a grand slam.

Then Mike Lowell had a better 2007 then David Ortiz right? He drove in 120 runs to Ortiz's 117.

Or maybe.... Mike Lowell was able to drive in 120 runs because he hit behind Ortiz in the lineup and Ortiz had a .445 on base percentage.

If someone went 4-5 with no runs scored is it really his fault? Or might it the players who hit behind him? Maybe if he had just stolen his way around the bases, then he would have had a good day. Lousy players with their 4 hit days. They really should learn how to only get hits when their teammates are on base - or when they know the people behind them will drive them in. Stupid players.

[Neags23]

VORP is a meaure of the value of a single player. It's a measure of how productive a batter is on his own, independent of other players on his team.

It's sorta like DIPS. You take a method of looking at something that seems counterintuitive, but it really makes sense.

If I go 4 for 5 and don't drive anyone in, that's not my fault. That has nothing to do with me. That's why OBP is the most important base stat in baseball. It does the team no good to go 4 for 5 if no one is on base when you do it.

If I go 1 for 20 over 4 games, but that one was a grand slam, I have 4 RBI's in 4 games. On that pace, I'll have a 162 RBI season, which looks great. Too bad my OBP is .050.

RBI's are an absolute meaningless stat when it comes to player evaluation.

Give me a .500 OBP guy without a single RBI over 162 versus a .200 OBP guy with 150 RBI's any day.

You can't score runs without getting on base.

Some might say "You can't score those runs without driving in those runners."

But that's not what we're talking about. That's taking other players into account in a single player evaluation. Getting on base involves only one player. Batting someone in involves two or more players.

Because the game uses VORP (seemingly) for MVP voting might be unrealistic, that's not the game's fault. It's the idiots who vote for awards in real life.

[Left-handed Badger]

Originally Posted by Jestre

But this thread is a comparison of stats produced, not potential stats. Which is why the wrong guy won the MVP. VORP and RC do not measure actual production, just potential production. I will take real production over theoretical production.

Ditto on that. Real Production wins the championship. Theoretical production will give you the 1992 Mets. (A team that looks good only on paper)

[Left-handed Badger]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

Then Mike Lowell had a better 2007 then David Ortiz right? He drove in 120 runs to Ortiz's 117.

Or maybe.... Mike Lowell was able to drive in 120 runs because he hit behind Ortiz in the lineup and Ortiz had a .445 on base percentage.

If someone went 4-5 with no runs scored is it really his fault? Or might it the players who hit behind him? Maybe if he had just stolen his way around the bases, then he would have had a good day. Lousy players with their 4 hit days. They really should learn how to only get hits when their teammates are on base - or when they know the people behind them will drive them in. Stupid players.

Well, that is why it is a roster with 25 players instead of 1. I know it is cruel. But, part of the MVP should be captializing on your chances.

I dont mean to do this but. By your standards you would have 2 runs scored 15 men LOB and wonder why people think your team had a bad day.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by Left-handed Badger

Well, that is why it is a roster with 25 players instead of 1. I know it is cruel. But, part of the MVP should be captializing on your chances.

I dont mean to do this but. By your standards you would have 2 runs scored 15 men LOB and wonder why people think your team had a bad day.

And logging out of this message board once and for all..... I hope OOTPdev sends an email when the next version is released.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

And logging out of this message board once and for all..... I hope OOTPdev sends an email when the next version is released.

Don't rush back

[BoofBonser26]

Yikes, I thought this community was more informed than this.

[wlight1]

Originally Posted by BoofBonser26

Yikes, I thought this community was more informed than this.

My thoughts exactly.

[atlbrave1]

So here's the question --- what formula should the game use to calculate who the MVP should be (since VORP supposedly sucks)?

[Left-handed Badger]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

And logging out of this message board once and for all..... I hope OOTPdev sends an email when the next version is released.

Geesh!! I was just pointing out some possible flaws (perhaps a little too snarky) didnt mean to get people all touchy.

[Left-handed Badger]

Originally Posted by atlbrave1

So here's the question --- what formula should the game use to calculate who the MVP should be (since VORP supposedly sucks)?

Personally, I think there should be some way to do what people do. Measure it over several statistics (AVG/OBP/SLG RBIs, HRs, maybe SBs to some extent) Dont know how to combine it all exactly. RC and VORP might could even be a factor but they can be way too overated. Close/Late could factor in. Maybe the standings of the players team even a little. (Runs and GGs could also help depending on position in order and on field)

Personally, it might be cool to have several "voters". Who might all even look for slightly different things and maybe vote for a Top 10 and then add the points. Though this would probably be too much work. (I know I wouldnt want to figure all that out)

[lewis31lewis52]

I personally think it's fine the way it is now.

All I know is that RBI shouldn't be anywhere near the MVP equation. Most team dependent stat there is, and IMO the worst stat every thought of.

[Zoso1515]

Marlarky.

[andymac]

Originally Posted by BoofBonser26

Yikes, I thought this community was more informed than this.

It makes you realize how far a good portion of people have come. Some just refuse to move forward, though.

[ctorg]

Referring to the first post, I really don't see how Griffin's numbers are better than those other two guys in 2013 and 2015. To me the other guys are obviously more deserving of the MVP.

[Ktulu]

The Earth is flat...

[darkcloud4579]

Originally Posted by andymac

It makes you realize how far a good portion of people have come. Some just refuse to move forward, though.

We're talking about a sport that is it's own worst enemy, refuses playoff expansion on the basis of "tradition" and has paraded around with the worst divisional alignment known to man for almost a decade now...because of laziness and a lack of will to change.

The only reason stats can be invented daily is because eggheads who love the game can do that without a mandate.