Power Hitters In Leadoff?

CubsSox · 03-25-2003, 12:20 AM

Alright, I love this game as much as the next person, but one thing that baffles me is the power hitters that the computer puts on the leadoff spot for some teams.

Carlos Lee
Pat Burrell
Jeff Bagwell
Jermaine Dye
Hank Balaock

These are some guys in my solo league that have the lead off spot... is this just a bug/error in the game?

MVPlaya · 03-25-2003, 12:21 AM

Bagwell?

Do they do good tho?

MJohnson · 03-25-2003, 12:25 AM

Boone is thinking about using Adam Dunn as a leadoff hitter. Maybe the OOTP AI is ahead of the curve

CubsSox · 03-25-2003, 12:26 AM

Haven't really checked.... just about a couple weeks into the season. I imagine these players will have decent HR numbers, but not the RBI's to match... regardless, my complaint is that its unrealistic.

Also, when generating an auto lineup, the game suggested to me that I use Alou as my leadoff hitter.

CubsSox · 03-25-2003, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MJohnson
Boone is thinking about using Adam Dunn as a leadoff hitter. Maybe the OOTP AI is ahead of the curve

Boone also thought about playing Barry Larkin at LF

I Am The Game · 03-25-2003, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CubsSox
Haven't really checked.... just about a couple weeks into the season. I imagine these players will have decent HR numbers, but not the RBI's to match... regardless, my complaint is that its unrealistic.

Also, when generating an auto lineup, the game suggested to me that I use Alou as my leadoff hitter.

Who says it's unrealistic? Just because it's "different" doesn't make it unrealistic. If the computer had used 4 relievers at Closer would that be unrealistic? No because it's done in "real life", it's just different. And as a former poster mentioned, Bob Boone will have no problem using Adam Dunn as a Leadoff man. The A's used Jeremy Giambi at leadoff in 2002.

Steve Kuffrey · 03-25-2003, 01:06 AM

Somethingelse to remember, the computer can't tell Jason Giambi from Rey Ordonez. It knows NO names.....just sees numbers and says hey those numbers look good you bat first.

Treches · 03-25-2003, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
.....just sees numbers and says hey those numbers look good you bat first.

Glasses.

CubsSox · 03-25-2003, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by I Am The Game
Who says it's unrealistic? Just because it's "different" doesn't make it unrealistic. If the computer had used 4 relievers at Closer would that be unrealistic? No because it's done in "real life", it's just different. And as a former poster mentioned, Bob Boone will have no problem using Adam Dunn as a Leadoff man. The A's used Jeremy Giambi at leadoff in 2002.

The majority of the five players I mentioned above won't leadoff a lineup in the majors anytime soon, if ever... I'd say that's a good definition of unrealistic.

jmknpk · 03-25-2003, 02:49 AM

When I have a team that is lacking in a true leadoff hitter type role (or hitting in general), I have a tendency to put a power guy up earlier, even to first spot. I think I get the results I'm looking for. Over the season, this would mean some extra bats for my best batter. I usually slide the pitcher up a notch though.

I Am The Game · 03-25-2003, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CubsSox
The majority of the five players I mentioned above won't leadoff a lineup in the majors anytime soon, if ever... I'd say that's a good definition of unrealistic.

I'm sure you'd say the same thing about Giambi, and Dunn is better then a majority of those guys and he could be seen leading off shortly.

HolyCow98 · 03-25-2003, 03:01 AM

Its looking at how good they are at on base....It like to have fast guys with decent to good OBP but if no player falls into that category it will use in alot of cases any player with high OBP capabilities....

Examples of this being done on occasion...in real life...
Wade Boggs
Brian Downing
Dwight Evans
None of those guys are burners and the last two were had pretty good power numbers for their time....

Now in this day and age...you will almost never see it...so by saying it is unrealistic you would be correct...IF the makers of the game were trying to model the actual Major Leagues....but they are modeling the SPORT of baseball...and in the sport of baseball...it is common practice that it is a WISE idea to put a guy who get on base often in the lead-off spot to set the table....

You should test it out.....Let the AI do it his way for 50 games....write the team numbers down for runs....then hit reset and resim 50 games using what you thing would be realistic...

Markus Heinsohn · 03-25-2003, 09:03 AM

Please check if those lineups are vs. LHP and compare the players ratings against LHP. Often times players with good overall power numbers are weaker against a certain handedness and therefore the AI doesn't see him as a power-hitter in that case.

CD1083 · 03-25-2003, 08:39 PM

Frank Thomas is not a leadoff hitter. The Chi Sox have him leading off all the time at DH. When you have a real lead off hitter it is a bit unreal to have a 280lb guy hitting at your lead off position that you could normally put lower in the order.

I Am The Game · 03-25-2003, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chase Davis
Frank Thomas is not a leadoff hitter. The Chi Sox have him leading off all the time at DH. When you have a real lead off hitter it is a bit unreal to have a 280lb guy hitting at your lead off position that you could normally put lower in the order.

As far as I know the game does not see wait, does not see position, does not see names. Only sees numbers and puts them where they feel it is best for their team to go.

So while we see a 280 pound DH Frank Thomas leading off, the game only sees Eric Scrotum as the best bet for the leadoff position.

CD1083 · 03-25-2003, 08:50 PM

But that's the issue. Frank Thomas is not the best man for the leadoff position. Aaron Rowand, Willie Harris, D'Angelo Jiminez and Jose Valentin are all more reasonable leadoff hitters. I could at least see Thomas batting second, but not at the leadoff position.

I Am The Game · 03-25-2003, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chase Davis
But that's the issue. Frank Thomas is not the best man for the leadoff position. Aaron Rowand, Willie Harris, D'Angelo Jiminez and Jose Valentin are all more reasonable leadoff hitters. I could at least see Thomas batting second, but not at the leadoff position.

We think that, yes because we want speed guys for our leadoff. That's the modern method. As was noted, non-speed guys did lead off at times. Thomas does usually have a high OBP and more BB's then K's - which is important out of the leadoff spot. The point of the leadoff man is to create runs by getting on base for the hitters behind him. That is what the game is going off of. Somewhere down the line we have gotten into needing the speed guy leading off, and that has become our thought process, and that is why when we see a team using Frank Thomas, Jeremy Giambi, or Adam Dunn at Leadoff we give a second-look and can't figure out why. So while Rowand, Harris, Jiminez, and Valentin look like better options to us because they give that stolen base option, the AI sees as the main point of the leadoff man just getting on base.

Rockpile · 03-25-2003, 09:24 PM

From what I can tell the computer looks mainly at OBP and speed for leadoff hitters. This makes sense esp. if you have more than enough power hitters (as I usually do) in the lineup. You want your best hitters to bat as often as possible.

Look at Soriano last year for the Yankees. THat didnt hurt them any (well the stikeouts did, but thats part of the OBP )

drprestwood · 03-25-2003, 09:28 PM

In the ATHL, I had one of my best power hitters leading off for most of the season, and it has worked very very well. He's still 2nd in the league in RBIs and had more RBIs as a leadoff hitter than when I dropped him down in the order.

TEAM
http://athl.ootp-leagues.com/stats/team9.htm
HITTER
http://athl.ootp-leagues.com/stats/781.htm

Crapshoot · 03-26-2003, 05:15 AM

Damn, I wish the OOTP AI were managing the Royals and the Twins....
I agree with the general idea; I think the AI is coded such that OBP is a paramount concern to who leads-off. As such, Bonds would appear to be a great leadoff guy (which he might be in real ife, although 2 or 3 suits him better).

03-25-2003, 12:20 AM	#1
CubsSox Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 206	Power Hitters In Leadoff? Alright, I love this game as much as the next person, but one thing that baffles me is the power hitters that the computer puts on the leadoff spot for some teams. Carlos Lee Pat Burrell Jeff Bagwell Jermaine Dye Hank Balaock These are some guys in my solo league that have the lead off spot... is this just a bug/error in the game?

03-25-2003, 12:26 AM	#4
CubsSox Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 206	Haven't really checked.... just about a couple weeks into the season. I imagine these players will have decent HR numbers, but not the RBI's to match... regardless, my complaint is that its unrealistic. Also, when generating an auto lineup, the game suggested to me that I use Alou as my leadoff hitter. __________________ It's me... Chae!

03-25-2003, 01:06 AM	#7
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,023	Somethingelse to remember, the computer can't tell Jason Giambi from Rey Ordonez. It knows NO names.....just sees numbers and says hey those numbers look good you bat first. __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

03-25-2003, 03:01 AM	#12
HolyCow98 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Douglasville, GA Posts: 2,735	Its looking at how good they are at on base....It like to have fast guys with decent to good OBP but if no player falls into that category it will use in alot of cases any player with high OBP capabilities.... Examples of this being done on occasion...in real life... Wade Boggs Brian Downing Dwight Evans None of those guys are burners and the last two were had pretty good power numbers for their time.... Now in this day and age...you will almost never see it...so by saying it is unrealistic you would be correct...IF the makers of the game were trying to model the actual Major Leagues....but they are modeling the SPORT of baseball...and in the sport of baseball...it is common practice that it is a WISE idea to put a guy who get on base often in the lead-off spot to set the table.... You should test it out.....Let the AI do it his way for 50 games....write the team numbers down for runs....then hit reset and resim 50 games using what you thing would be realistic... __________________ NPBL Enjoying its 60th season Georgia GM

03-26-2003, 05:15 AM	#20
Crapshoot Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: watching: DArwin's missing link in action Posts: 3,112	Damn, I wish the OOTP AI were managing the Royals and the Twins.... I agree with the general idea; I think the AI is coded such that OBP is a paramount concern to who leads-off. As such, Bonds would appear to be a great leadoff guy (which he might be in real ife, although 2 or 3 suits him better). __________________ Senior Senor Member of the OOTP Boards Pittsburgh Playmates- OTBL

03-25-2003, 12:21 AM	#2
MVPlaya Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 46	Bagwell? Do they do good tho?

03-25-2003, 12:25 AM	#3
MJohnson Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: under an overpass Posts: 459	Boone is thinking about using Adam Dunn as a leadoff hitter. Maybe the OOTP AI is ahead of the curve

03-25-2003, 02:49 AM	#10
jmknpk Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 39	When I have a team that is lacking in a true leadoff hitter type role (or hitting in general), I have a tendency to put a power guy up earlier, even to first spot. I think I get the results I'm looking for. Over the season, this would mean some extra bats for my best batter. I usually slide the pitcher up a notch though.

03-25-2003, 09:03 AM	#13
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 24,805	Please check if those lineups are vs. LHP and compare the players ratings against LHP. Often times players with good overall power numbers are weaker against a certain handedness and therefore the AI doesn't see him as a power-hitter in that case.

03-25-2003, 08:39 PM	#14
CD1083 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,590	Frank Thomas is not a leadoff hitter. The Chi Sox have him leading off all the time at DH. When you have a real lead off hitter it is a bit unreal to have a 280lb guy hitting at your lead off position that you could normally put lower in the order.

03-25-2003, 08:50 PM	#16
CD1083 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,590	But that's the issue. Frank Thomas is not the best man for the leadoff position. Aaron Rowand, Willie Harris, D'Angelo Jiminez and Jose Valentin are all more reasonable leadoff hitters. I could at least see Thomas batting second, but not at the leadoff position.

03-25-2003, 09:24 PM	#18
Rockpile All Star Reserve Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 620	From what I can tell the computer looks mainly at OBP and speed for leadoff hitters. This makes sense esp. if you have more than enough power hitters (as I usually do) in the lineup. You want your best hitters to bat as often as possible. Look at Soriano last year for the Yankees. THat didnt hurt them any (well the stikeouts did, but thats part of the OBP )

03-25-2003, 09:28 PM	#19
drprestwood All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,501	In the ATHL, I had one of my best power hitters leading off for most of the season, and it has worked very very well. He's still 2nd in the league in RBIs and had more RBIs as a leadoff hitter than when I dropped him down in the order. TEAM http://athl.ootp-leagues.com/stats/team9.htm HITTER http://athl.ootp-leagues.com/stats/781.htm