OOTP 6.51 VS The Newer Verisons

[jazzrack]

those of us who prefer 6.5 are at some point going to have to express our displeasure with the game with our wallets, by not buying future versions. If we continue to buy the new versions we are sending the wrong mesage. i bought 06 & 07 neither one lasted long on my HD.I most likely won't be getting future versions. I won't whine and complain, I'll just walk away. but the condescending attitude of those that like the new game is a bit annoying. for me the new versions are not something i would want to spend my limited rec. time on and it should be as respected as those who choose to spend it on the new versions.

to put it simply : the game isn't better if i don't want to play it.

[LFC1892]

Originally Posted by JoeRockEHF

I'm one of those who are still attached to 6.5. I don't know what it is about it but I really love the complex but simple nature of it. After being away for awhile for personal reasons I came back and found out about 2006. I bought it instantly and although I love a lot about the game...I just didn't get that "feel" to it.

I know it sounds stupid but I've tried over and over to like that game but to no avail, I always came back to 6.5. Because of SI's involvement and my distaste of 2006 I never did buy 2007 (I've been with OOTP since v3). I was away once again for an extended period of time and have seen the merger end and 2007 is now v8. I thought about buying it and giving it a whirl as most people see it as a step in the right direction, plus I want to help out Markus as much as I can.

I do know asking for an updated 6.5 is out of the question and we have to move on. I have good hopes for the future and am going to get v9 no doubt. Whether I stick with it or go back to 6.5 once again is to be determined. If v9 has anything close to that "feel" of complex but simple though, it will have me sold.

" Almost word for word what I've been thinking for a while

[SandMan]

I play 2007 now but I do notice that I do not play it as much as I did with version 6.5. I now play DDS:PB, TCB, Bowl Bound, Puresim and Fast Break Basketball 2001 as well as OOTP 2007. In the past my time was devoted only to OOTP 6.5 and Puresim. About 80% to OOTP 6.5.

I like many of the features of the new version and I hated the time and problems with 6.5 when it came to getting CATOBASE to work correctly but I liked the charm and simplicity of the game. I do not NEED to play world teams and do not have the resources on my pc to run a MEGA league. I love the facegen option (even create players for my long run puresim and 6.5 teams in 2007 and then just copy to the other games....), I do believe that anything else I do with 2007 I can find a workaround to do in 6.5. Also it is a fact that it is very difficult to create roster sets because of the complexity of the newer version.

If it were my games I would still market and develop OOTP8, OOTP9 etc. but would still take OOTP6.5 and rename it and market it as a basic game while the newer versions are advance user games.....there is a niche for both. But I remember it was noted that the code for 6.5 was a real mess and the rewrite was needed. Perhaps Markus could be better off by selling the code to allow another company the opportunity to advance the older game.

[endgame]

Originally Posted by jazzrack

those of us who prefer 6.5 are at some point going to have to express our displeasure with the game with our wallets, by not buying future versions.

I'd like to think that one of the best ways to express that displeasure is to make good use of the dialogue started in this thread. Not that the powers to be don't already have their plan in place, but it sure couldn't hurt to be discussing both benefits and drawbacks of the changes (the thread does include VS) simultaneously with that plan being unfolded and tested. You never know if the mouse in the corner will grab enticing crumbs and run back home with them.

Originally Posted by jazzrack

If we continue to buy the new versions we are sending the wrong mesage.

You are and you aren't. I get that it appears to support the direction of the game, but it also supports the developer, who in this case has a more open door and communication with his client base. On the one hand, you could argue not purchasing hurts him more in that event. On the other, it can be argued that it helps your agenda as it keeps him in business and furthers your vested interest in moving that direction.

EA lost myriad customers when Madden dropped its customization for the PC. I could no longer create an Old Town Terror. When it restricted its teams and rosters to the NFL, I stopped purchasing but kept what little conversation I was privy to going on the boards. In the end, they didn't care. I hadn't put a dent in the direction. Too big, too indifferent. I will admit I enjoy being a part of community wherein sometimes I matter.

I'm the last person to be certain of anything, but I hope that even if you decide to withold your money, you won't reign in your voice. Continue, if even in this thread, to take the opportunity to address your desires. The Suggestion thread is probably the main avenue, but an odd thread begun with one intention can often transform into one with real impetus.

Originally Posted by jazzrack

i bought 06 & 07 neither one lasted long on my HD.I most likely won't be getting future versions. I won't whine and complain, I'll just walk away. but the condescending attitude of those that like the new game is a bit annoying. for me the new versions are not something i would want to spend my limited rec. time on and it should be as respected as those who choose to spend it on the new versions.

I can't disagree. I can only, again, seek to understand. You and your constituents aren't advesaries or competitors.

Originally Posted by jazzrack

to put it simply : the game isn't better if i don't want to play it.

Well-stated. The best recourse I can imagine is stating, as well, the specific elements that limit its appeal and offer - if you're able - any reasonable alternatives that have merit within the new framework, even if it includes dismantling part of it. I only add the italicized caveat because I find it extremely unlikely, given any ownership base - large or small -, that enhancements will ever be made to previous iterations.

jazz, you've always been one to offer your opinions and assistance without hesitation and in a straightforward, direct manner. I hope you continue in that direction. Personally, I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

There's nothing wrong about asking for a game with the simplicity that 6.5 gave us.

"

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by satchel

The merger with SI and the influence of Championship Manager was motion in a certain direction, and that motion has now ended, I'm sure. The SI influence was strong, but it has run its course. Markus will shed the bad aspects of the CM interface and design, and keep its good features. New versions of OOTP will be the best yet.

Man, I love your optimism. And I hope you're right.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by jazzrack

those of us who prefer 6.5 are at some point going to have to express our displeasure with the game with our wallets, by not buying future versions. If we continue to buy the new versions we are sending the wrong mesage. i bought 06 & 07 neither one lasted long on my HD.I most likely won't be getting future versions. I won't whine and complain, I'll just walk away. but the condescending attitude of those that like the new game is a bit annoying. for me the new versions are not something i would want to spend my limited rec. time on and it should be as respected as those who choose to spend it on the new versions.

to put it simply : the game isn't better if i don't want to play it.

You should vote with your wallet. That is your right. However Markus is running a business and the ongoing development of this game is his best guess at what will keep him in business. If that guess/decision is wrong, he will be the one who loses the most.

What I find surprising is the level of personal animosity directed at Markus/SI and to a lesser extent, those of us who like the current game by those who do not like recent versions. Let me be clear I'm not directing this specifically at Jazzrack. That may be a reason for some of the condescending posts. I know, I bite my tongue a lot.

In real life, the company I work for made a significant product change 6 years ago. In the process we pi**ed off a significant minority of customers. The decision was made in the best interests of the business and the future. Luckily it worked out, however if we had listened to those who wanted the old product we would no longer be in business.

[Cooleyvol]

RchW, you need look no further for condescending remarks directed at those who like the older versions that this very thread. That's a two way street.

[endgame]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

RchW, you need look no further for condescending remarks directed at those who like the older versions that this very thread. That's a two way street.

So move past those that ruffle your feathers and take the time to respond in kind to those that genuinely want a dialogue. I'd much prefer some hard work to understand the viewpoints than ignite emotional debate. I'm equipped for either, but much prefer the former.

[Sweed]

I only play solo leagues so my comments should only be applied to solo play.

I really don't get this complexity argument between v2007 and v6.5 (there is an argument to be made when comparing v2006 and 6.5). You don't have to use leagues from around the world, I don't. I use a current MLB with 5 levels of minors (no ghost players), that's it. I could just as easily set up a 6.5 style league with MLB, three levels of minors, and ghost players so only players I drafted, traded for, etc would be coming up through my minor league system. The minor league report in v2007 even went back to suggesting when a player was ready to move up. IIRC this was not in 6.5 but instead you had to make the decision without AI help.

The only thing I see that would be different between a v2007 style 6.5 league and an actual 6.5 league would be the scouting model. In 6.5 days I recall many never used scouting at all anyway which would still be an option in v2007. If, like me, you do use scouting than it is a little more work in v2007 (and it was a lot more work in v2006). However it's not like it takes a lot of time to set up. I set up all of my scouts assignments for the year in less than 10 minutes and haven't touched them since.

I will agree with Sandman that it is harder to create roster sets. I do hope this is something that Markus can improve upon. However I do believe most players are happy with the rosters that Lehman imports and that these players end up performing as expected. So if you are a historical player the roster creation may not be an issue for you.

I started playing oopt with v4. At that time players were asking\hoping that in future versions minor leagues would be playable, more in depth stats, tracking stats for each team a player played for in a given year, historical stats kept ala baseballrefernce dot com style (no need for Cato or other third party mods) etc. etc.etc. IMHO Markus had delivered on these things and more with v2007 and done a hell of a good job of it.

So, I guess I'm trying to figure out why a guy that likes 6.5 can't just set up a 6.5 style solo league with v2007? As far as I can tell you could have the same type of game while getting the advantage of deeper stats, better player modeling, face gen, etc with the only price being having to learn a only slightly more complex new GUI (which was made much easier to use with improvements Markus made from v2006 to v2007).

My solo league was started in v4 and has been imported into each new version every since. I won't lie there were issues when importing into v2006 but with the total rewrite I can't say I was surprised. After the last 2006 patch I was satisfied with the game though saw a lot of room for improvement. With v2007 I can honestly say that my import from v2006 was seamless and I have been enjoying the game more than any other previous version.

[kenyan_cheena]

I might be in a minority all of my own as I'm still using version 6.12.

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

RchW, you need look no further for condescending remarks directed at those who like the older versions that this very thread. That's a two way street.

Where are the condescending remarks in this thread?

[reds1]

Originally Posted by Sweed

The minor league report in v2007 even went back to suggesting when a player was ready to move up. IIRC this was not in 6.5 but instead you had to make the decision without AI help.

OOTP6.5 includes scout remarks in the report, in addition to the email messages you get (at least in manager mode) recommending player movement.

[bababui]

SI make the most realistic sports sim on the market. The SI bashing is a little ridiculous. Had the OOTP/SI marriage lasted, and had Markus been inspired by the vast depth and realism of Football Manager, a wonderful game would have evolved.

Lets hope Markus stays the course.

For those frustrated with the new interface, a week or two using it will remove the confusion. The bookmarks make navigation very easy. The simplicity is still there if you want to at game set up.

Just give yourself time to get used to the interface and you will likely be glad you did. For those few that resent a world of baseball, time has passed you by. But you have the option of ignoring it in v8.

[Cooleyvol]

Originally Posted by bababui

For those frustrated with the new interface, a week or two using it will remove the confusion.

While I respect your opinion. Its just that -- an opinion.

I, for one, am two versions into this format and though I've never been confused, I still don't like it.

As is common knowledge, I never played solo and used it for online leagues. In its prime, OOTP fostered all sorts of leagues and posts about them. A quick look at the online leagues forum today shows that the first page goes back for 22 days. The masses obviously don't use this game as they did past versions, and like it or not, online leagues built the community this game used to sit atop.

[The Wolf]

I'd post something significant, but I don't need to, as Cooleyvol has been posting everything I think about this subject first.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by bababui

SI make the most realistic sports sim on the market. The SI bashing is a little ridiculous. Had the OOTP/SI marriage lasted, and had Markus been inspired by the vast depth and realism of Football Manager, a wonderful game would have evolved.

Lets hope Markus stays the course.

For those frustrated with the new interface, a week or two using it will remove the confusion. The bookmarks make navigation very easy. The simplicity is still there if you want to at game set up.

Just give yourself time to get used to the interface and you will likely be glad you did. For those few that resent a world of baseball, time has passed you by. But you have the option of ignoring it in v8.

But I will say this: the above is a mass of very personal opinions trying very hard to masquerade as facts.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by reds1

OOTP6.5 includes scout remarks in the report, in addition to the email messages you get (at least in manager mode) recommending player movement.

That's why I went with the "if I recall correctly". It has been quite awhile since I even had 6.5 on my drive. Maybe I'm way off but I do seem to recall a point where this wasn't in the game but was added back in after many requests.
Perhaps between the original release of 6.0 to 6.5?

Either way the point I was making stands, at least for me I'm not seeing why a 6.5 solo player wouldn't be happy with v2007 and a 6.5 type set up.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

The masses obviously don't use this game as they did past versions, and like it or not, online leagues built the community this game used to sit atop.

Originally Posted by The Wolf

But I will say this: the above is a personal opinion trying very hard to masquerade as a fact.

^^^(borrowed from The Wolf with a little edit)

While I respect your opinion. Its just that -- an opinion.
Pretty sure there are a number of solo and historical solo players that would argue with your opinion. Along with a number of players that play both online and solo.

[bababui]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

While I respect your opinion. Its just that -- an opinion.

I, for one, am two versions into this format and though I've never been confused, I still don't like it.

As is common knowledge, I never played solo and used it for online leagues. In its prime, OOTP fostered all sorts of leagues and posts about them. A quick look at the online leagues forum today shows that the first page goes back for 22 days. The masses obviously don't use this game as they did past versions, and like it or not, online leagues built the community this game used to sit atop.

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I'd post something significant, but I don't need to, as Cooleyvol has been posting everything I think about this subject first.

Originally Posted by Sweed

^^^(borrowed from The Wolf with a little edit)

While I respect your opinion. Its just that -- an opinion.
Pretty sure there are a number of solo and historical solo players that would argue with your opinion. Along with a number of players that play both online and solo.

May I please ask you guys what specifically is significantly better about v.6? Like a few others I am confused about why you dislike this iteration so? I have played both a lot (in single player and both fictional and historical). As I said, using bookmarks it offers the ease of verson 6 with a much deeper gaming experience. Thats my opinion anyway.

As for the part about SI, well, hundreds of reviews over many years and millions of sales for a sports sim that doesnt have 3D graphics would tell me that SI indeed is a wonderful company. They do their best to model every aspect of their sport. I do admit that they dont offer historical play but its likely only because the db would have to be so large that the game would be unplayable for most users.