Time Warp HOF Ballot 1977 - Page 2

jdw · 11-28-2007, 02:10 PM

From one of the GM's:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

The annual Snowman begging-post:

Someone (jdw) please post for me? TIA

Alan Liao Jr.
Corky Stell
Hank Makris
Brad De la Garza
Shigeo Oh
Brock Putnam

jdw · 11-28-2007, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

Some tough choices

McGee and Putnam caused me undue amounts of torture in my years in Milwaukee

McGee, Putnam, Helton, De La Garza... even that junkballer Dufresne... all those Dodgers pitchers were a gigantic pain in the read in the late 50s and early 60s.

You did your fair shair to help that rotation:

Quote:

04/16/58 Ellie Vancini to Milwaukee for Brad De La Garza & Brock Putnam

Granted, BDLG and Putnam weren't *that* good at the time. They were late 1st round type flyers: 6/6/7 or 6/7/6 types. They bumped up after that.

Enk had just gotten Leo Emig in that massive "quantity for quality" deal with Trader Matt of the Sens/Twins. It started the Feeding Frenzy on Trader Matt that saw:

Quote:

3/2/58 Traded Leo Emig to Los Angeles for Perry Carman & Arthur Elzy & Pepper Robbins & Roy Cruse & Jay Beardsley & Jerry Richardson

3/2/58 Traded Sam Kreitenberg & Carl Freel to New York Yankees for Lyle Watson & Harry Shanters & Fritz Devlin & Lou Haveman

4/16/58 Traded Mike Brennan to Milwaukee for Mon Villa & Tommy Allen

4/16/58 Traded Jed Williams to San Francisco for Vance Erickson & Henry Edwards & David Patterson

4/16/58 Traded Earl Taylor & Lukas Dietrich to Cleveland for Tommy Kubo & Walter Hanham & Johnny Miller & Mitch Seevers & Gary Yordy & David Durham

That's a lot of talent that went away. And OF of All Star Earl Taylor, HOFer Leo Emig and Player of the Decade Jed Williams... with Sammy K over at 3B as a low BA, high power guy.

John

canadiancreed · 11-28-2007, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

Some tough choices

McGee and Putnam caused me undue amounts of torture in my years in Milwaukee

ANd my years in Cincy. I both admired and loathed that rotation, the press loved them over my guys who were more successful. *grr*

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdw

You did your fair shair to help that rotation:

Yes. I remember wanting to tear a strip off for practically handing them the pennant that year. I swear Enk was humping lady luck in trades in the 50's.

rudel.dietrich · 11-28-2007, 11:16 PM

In my defense...Vancini had some excellent years in Milwaukee and turned out to have a great career
I wanted to vote for him but he was a hair below the 10 I listed

jdw · 12-01-2007, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

Some tough choices

McGee and Putnam caused me undue amounts of torture in my years in Milwaukee

Quote:

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

ANd my years in Cincy.

That would be hard.

Putnam was the ROY & POY in the year *after* to resigned as the Reds GM. He never started against the Reds, and pitched all of 0.2 IP against the Reds. It was limited to your last year, when you one the World Title.

McGee started seven times against you in 1959, his first full season in the bigs. He was nothing special that season, even against the Reds. 3.91 ERA against the Reds in about 50 IP. He began his great run of seasons the year after you resigned.

Quote:

I both admired and loathed that rotation, the press loved them over my guys who were more successful. *grr*

Your guys won two pennants (1957 & 1959) and two WS (1957 & 1959).

The Dodgers won five pennants (1956, 1958, 1960-62) and two WS (1961-62).

Their guys won six POY in seven seasons:

1956 Helton
1957 Helton
1958 Helton
1959 Helton
1960 Putnam
1961 Torbett (SFG)
1962 McGee

Your guys won... none. The Reds didn't get a POY in the Live Era until Heinz.

ERA Titles:

1956 Helton
1957 Helton
1958 Helton
1959 Helton
1960 McGee
1961 McGee
1962 McGee

Your guys never won an ERA Title in the era.

McGee won back-to-back WS MVP's going 4-0, which matches Makris' 1957 & 1959 WS MVP's going 4-0.

Helton, McGee and BDLG were all better than Makris. Putnam is debatable. Hank was of course better than Dufresne.

You never really had a great #2 pitcher behind Hank in those years. Lieb was a "rent-a-player" for half a year, and no one really thinks of him as a "Red" compared to his time in Chicago (both) and STL.

The Dodgers got press because they not only had great starters, but were deep in great to good starters.

Even Dufresne was 205-161 in his career, which is a higher W% than Hank... and only 9 less wins.

Quote:

Yes. I remember wanting to tear a strip off for practically handing them the pennant that year. I swear Enk was humping lady luck in trades in the 50's.

I don't think at the time that anyone thought the Ellie for BDLG & Putnam deal handed them the pennant. As mentioned, Putnam didn't start until 1960. BDLG was coming off a 8-22 season, and wasn't off to much of a start in 1958.

It was the Emig deal that people thought was huge for LA. He was a 22 year old coming off a .310/.356/.522/.878 season with 51 SB's.

On the pitching front, people thought you got the better pitchers that off season in Ernest Cohen & Cornelius Grant from the ChiSox.

Cohen didn't pitch great for you, nor did Grant. Both went back to the Sox. Cohen had a pretty decent career when you consider his teams tended to be pretty bad. Grant's one of the more interesing stories of the era.

John

fhomess · 12-01-2007, 12:29 PM

1B Shigeo Oh
SP Brad de la Garza
SP Lex Tjeenk-Willink
SP Wesley McGee
SP Corky Stell

chowbeng · 12-02-2007, 10:22 PM

2B Alan Liao Jr.
1B Shigeo Oh
SP Hank Makris
SP Brad de la Garza
SP Wesley McGee
SP Brock Putnam

LFC1892 · 12-03-2007, 11:42 PM

Wow, I need to check in more often. I didnt even know that dad(Bob Day) was now a Cardinal and no longer an "A".

jdw · 12-04-2007, 02:19 PM

He's won a few more world titles with the Cards, and another Murphy award. It was cool of the A's to move him when they went into rebuilding - gave him a chance at those rings and awards, and chasing 300 wins.

Well... unless you happen to be the team that's lost to Day & the Cards two out of the last three years. :P

John

tward13 · 12-06-2007, 08:24 AM

Season's over, getting ready for the next. Time to tally these up?

fvamos · 12-07-2007, 09:45 AM

Joyce
Liao Jr.
Thomas
Oh
Putnam
McGee

jdw · 12-09-2007, 07:03 PM

Four players elected to the Hall of Fame with 15 ballots counted:

Code:


Shigeo Oh            100.0%
Brad De la Garza      80.0%
Alan Liao Jr.         80.0%
Wesley McGee          80.0%

Hank Makris           66.7%
Roger Joyce           60.0%
Corky Stell           60.0%
Brock Putnam          53.3%
Lex Tjeenk-Willink    46.7%
Ben Cook              33.3%
Cal Granger           33.3%
Wilford Woodworth     33.3%
Henry Thomas          26.7%
Abraham Noel          20.0%
Lucien Arbour         13.3%
Bud Ayers             13.3%
Bud Ulrich            13.3%
Bobby Johnson          6.7%
Jerome Fellows         6.7%

Jack Caufield          0.0%
Morgan Cuellar         0.0%
Lukas Dietrich         0.0%
Alan Roloff            0.0%
Ellie Vancini          0.0%
Boris Zimyanin         0.0%

The following players did not receive 5% of the vote and fell off the ballot. The year they become eligible for the VC is listed in parenthesis:

Jack Caufield (1992)
Morgan Cuellar (1992)
Lukas Dietrich (1992)
Alan Roloff (1992)
Ellie Vancini (1992)
Boris Zimyanin (1990)

Added to the ballot next year:

David Lawrence
John Patterson
Louis Schmit
Oliver Sharkey
Andrew Vamos

John

canadiancreed · 12-09-2007, 07:29 PM

Liao over Joyce.....wow.....jsut wow.....

Intresting class for next year, that should be an intresting vote

jdw · 12-09-2007, 07:34 PM

Happy with who went in. They are all worthy in my mind.

Especially happy to see McGee go in. We're so removed from his peak that I worried that people wouldn't be away of just how dominant he was, and how critical he was to the 1956-62 Dodgers going from a "championship team" to one of the leagues true Dynasties. At time when Helton was declining, and then traded, there was Wes winning three straight ERA titles as the Dodgers won their last three pennants, and their two WS of the run. He, BDLG and Putnam allowed that great rotation to continue beyond Helton's dominant years of 1956-59.

He also was exceptional WS pitcher as well, and Dodgers Manager Harry Finley pulled another of his post season boners by leaving him out of the 1960 WS rotation. Long timers in the league will recall that Finley made strange moves in each of the 1956, 1958 and 1960 WS to help cost his team world titles. 1961-62 helped redeem his rep as a manager.

Sad to see Stell leave the ballot without getting in. A great pitcher at his peak similar to McGee, and one of the most impactful players in league history. Individual honors at a high level - three Murphs. Team honors at a high level - four world titles on the greatest dynasty of the era, a critical player in winning the first two. Impact - he was the starter who took an team feared for its offense but with a shakey in the rotation into having the most feared rotation in the game as its ace, lifting it back into the WS.

John

jdw · 12-09-2007, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

Liao over Joyce.....wow.....jsut wow.....

Intresting class for next year, that should be an intresting vote

Liao was better than Joyce. It was the consensus at the time, and has been every year that they've been on the ballot. You've been one of the few people who haven't voted for Liao while voting for Joyce. More people have flipped in the other direction - vote for Liao but not for Joyce.

John

canadiancreed · 12-09-2007, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdw

Liao was better than Joyce. It was the consensus at the time, and has been every year that they've been on the ballot.

So it is said, so it is so.

TWB Brewers · 12-09-2007, 08:38 PM

On McGee vs. Stell, I voted for McGee and not Stell for a few reasons:
144 ERA+ vs. 131.
2772.7 IP vs. 2409.
1715 K vs. 986.
WS Record: 4-0, 1.51 ERA vs. 2-2, 5.04 ERA

All enough to tip the scales for McGee and against Stell. For me.

As far as Liao vs. Joyce, I voted for both and will continue to vote for Joyce. In both cases it's hard to go against a whole line of all-pro years. I'd love to have a better indicator of defense for these guys than Gold Gloves, though. "Years spent playing behind a ground ball pitching staff" just doesn't do much for me as a HOF standard.

12-01-2007, 12:29 PM	#26
fhomess Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,693	1B Shigeo Oh SP Brad de la Garza SP Lex Tjeenk-Willink SP Wesley McGee SP Corky Stell __________________ StatsLab- PHP/MySQL based utilities for Online Leagues Baseball Cards - Full list of known templates and documentation on card development.

12-09-2007, 07:03 PM	#32
jdw All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,161	Four players elected to the Hall of Fame with 15 ballots counted: Code: Shigeo Oh 100.0% Brad De la Garza 80.0% Alan Liao Jr. 80.0% Wesley McGee 80.0% Hank Makris 66.7% Roger Joyce 60.0% Corky Stell 60.0% Brock Putnam 53.3% Lex Tjeenk-Willink 46.7% Ben Cook 33.3% Cal Granger 33.3% Wilford Woodworth 33.3% Henry Thomas 26.7% Abraham Noel 20.0% Lucien Arbour 13.3% Bud Ayers 13.3% Bud Ulrich 13.3% Bobby Johnson 6.7% Jerome Fellows 6.7% Jack Caufield 0.0% Morgan Cuellar 0.0% Lukas Dietrich 0.0% Alan Roloff 0.0% Ellie Vancini 0.0% Boris Zimyanin 0.0% The following players did not receive 5% of the vote and fell off the ballot. The year they become eligible for the VC is listed in parenthesis: Jack Caufield (1992) Morgan Cuellar (1992) Lukas Dietrich (1992) Alan Roloff (1992) Ellie Vancini (1992) Boris Zimyanin (1990) Added to the ballot next year: David Lawrence John Patterson Louis Schmit Oliver Sharkey Andrew Vamos John Last edited by jdw; 12-09-2007 at 07:13 PM. Reason: forgot to include Snow's ballot

11-28-2007, 11:16 PM	#24
rudel.dietrich Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Zürich, Switzerland Posts: 8,608	In my defense...Vancini had some excellent years in Milwaukee and turned out to have a great career I wanted to vote for him but he was a hair below the 10 I listed

12-02-2007, 10:22 PM	#27
chowbeng Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 42	2B Alan Liao Jr. 1B Shigeo Oh SP Hank Makris SP Brad de la Garza SP Wesley McGee SP Brock Putnam

12-03-2007, 11:42 PM	#28
LFC1892 All Star Reserve Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Global Posts: 963	Wow, I need to check in more often. I didnt even know that dad(Bob Day) was now a Cardinal and no longer an "A".

12-04-2007, 02:19 PM	#29
jdw All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,161	He's won a few more world titles with the Cards, and another Murphy award. It was cool of the A's to move him when they went into rebuilding - gave him a chance at those rings and awards, and chasing 300 wins. Well... unless you happen to be the team that's lost to Day & the Cards two out of the last three years. :P John

12-06-2007, 08:24 AM	#30
tward13 All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,965	Season's over, getting ready for the next. Time to tally these up?

12-07-2007, 09:45 AM	#31
fvamos Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 75	Joyce Liao Jr. Thomas Oh Putnam McGee

12-09-2007, 07:29 PM	#33
canadiancreed Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 11,660	Liao over Joyce.....wow.....jsut wow..... Intresting class for next year, that should be an intresting vote

12-09-2007, 07:34 PM	#34
jdw All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,161	Happy with who went in. They are all worthy in my mind. Especially happy to see McGee go in. We're so removed from his peak that I worried that people wouldn't be away of just how dominant he was, and how critical he was to the 1956-62 Dodgers going from a "championship team" to one of the leagues true Dynasties. At time when Helton was declining, and then traded, there was Wes winning three straight ERA titles as the Dodgers won their last three pennants, and their two WS of the run. He, BDLG and Putnam allowed that great rotation to continue beyond Helton's dominant years of 1956-59. He also was exceptional WS pitcher as well, and Dodgers Manager Harry Finley pulled another of his post season boners by leaving him out of the 1960 WS rotation. Long timers in the league will recall that Finley made strange moves in each of the 1956, 1958 and 1960 WS to help cost his team world titles. 1961-62 helped redeem his rep as a manager. Sad to see Stell leave the ballot without getting in. A great pitcher at his peak similar to McGee, and one of the most impactful players in league history. Individual honors at a high level - three Murphs. Team honors at a high level - four world titles on the greatest dynasty of the era, a critical player in winning the first two. Impact - he was the starter who took an team feared for its offense but with a shakey in the rotation into having the most feared rotation in the game as its ace, lifting it back into the WS. John

12-09-2007, 08:38 PM	#37
TWB Brewers Bat Boy Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 10	On McGee vs. Stell, I voted for McGee and not Stell for a few reasons: 144 ERA+ vs. 131. 2772.7 IP vs. 2409. 1715 K vs. 986. WS Record: 4-0, 1.51 ERA vs. 2-2, 5.04 ERA All enough to tip the scales for McGee and against Stell. For me. As far as Liao vs. Joyce, I voted for both and will continue to vote for Joyce. In both cases it's hard to go against a whole line of all-pro years. I'd love to have a better indicator of defense for these guys than Gold Gloves, though. "Years spent playing behind a ground ball pitching staff" just doesn't do much for me as a HOF standard.