Red Sox 2007-08 Offseason thread - Page 3

Tony M · 12-03-2007, 07:37 AM

Reports are saying that Ellsbury has been offered in the trade for Santana taking the place of Crisp and Lester.

The more I think about it, the less I see it as such a bad move. Sure, Crisp hasn't been the world's greatest hitter but he has very solid defence and like Ellsbury is quick on the bases.

Would the value that Santana brings outweigh that of losing Ellsbury? Having four pitchers that can bring 15+ Win seasons takes some pressure off the batters (actually a rotation of Santana, Beckett, Dice-K, Schilling and Wake/Lester has the potential for 5 15+ Win pitchers if they all stay healthy)

I'm sure Crisp has got a breakout season in him somewhere, and I'm sure Ellsbury is going to be a star, but can he replicate his October exploits for a whole season?

Geez, I'm starting to sound like a Yankee owner in trading off prospects for aces...

Having a look at the schedule, it's possible that by the 6th April Beckett (or maybe Santana) could be 3-0 for the season with the off-day patterns. Play the 25th March, 1st April and 4 days rest will get a third start on the 6th - most other teams will just be finishing a spin through their rotation.

towerofpower · 12-03-2007, 01:17 PM

/start rant

I wasn't really emotionally involved with the Santanna debate until word came out about Elsbury also being included in the trade, which I think would be a horrible, horrible trade.

Didn't the Sox learn anything last season when they "had" to make the trade for Gagne? I wish we could get Kason Gabbord back (and David Murphy too!)

I think that it was written best in the book Moneyball, "Anytime a team thinks that is has to make a trade is usually when they make a mistake." Or something along those lines.

Sure Santanna is a great pitcher but he's coming off of a down year and he's 29. There's no guarentee that he'll continue his trend (I know there's no guarentee with Elsbury either but at least he's not going to cost A-Rod dollars).

My feeling is that this team just came off of winning the world series where the pitcher that threw a no-hitter didn't even start a game for them in the playoffs...hmm...I don't know maybe give Bucholz a chance at the rotation instead of trading away your future for Santanna.

/end rant

QuestGAV · 12-03-2007, 01:22 PM

Santana wasn't really that down last year, the Twins were down and it made him look bad. His K/9 and BB/9 were stable but his HR/9 took a bump. I don't think there's reason to believe that bump is permanent.

Giving up Ellsbury would be tough, but only because of the contract Santana is going to get. Giving up great prospects for a guy who is going to command a huge salary is something I'd rather avoid in general. Then again, it's Johan-Freakin'-Santana and slotting him in with Beckett and Daisuke for the next 5-6 years gets me excited in ways that baseball should never excite a person.

Big Hugg · 12-03-2007, 01:35 PM

I think not making a Johan Santana deal just to hold onto Jacoby Ellsbury is a massive mistake.

And this is coming from a guy who threw a complete fit when the Marlins passed on him twice in the draft. Big fan of his game, but he's not the kind of player you refuse to trade when you can get the best pitcher in baseball.

Joshv02 · 12-03-2007, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Hugg

I think not making a Johan Santana deal just to hold onto Jacoby Ellsbury is a massive mistake.

And this is coming from a guy who threw a complete fit when the Marlins passed on him twice in the draft. Big fan of his game, but he's not the kind of player you refuse to trade when you can get the best pitcher in baseball.

Agreed - pretty much word for word.

The Sox Guy · 12-03-2007, 09:39 PM

Pretty much now a few of the Sox regulars have approved a Santana coming to Boston deal, so yeah. I'm gonna really miss Jacoby. Seriously, he's the reason why we won the World Series. He's the one who ignited the team and got things going. Crisp just pretty much died out there. I'm all set with Coco. Maybe we can bring in Rowand or something, but Coco Crisp? No thanks, ma'am. He's got defense, that's about it. By this logic, I guess we should've kept Gonzalez and Mientkiewicz too, but that didn't happen.

Of course, if we got Rowand then our payroll would take a pretty nice little spike, but I'm sure John doesn't mind spending all that money.

MorseMoose · 12-03-2007, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Sox Guy

Pretty much now a few of the Sox regulars have approved a Santana coming to Boston deal, so yeah. I'm gonna really miss Jacoby. Seriously, he's the reason why we won the World Series. He's the one who ignited the team and got things going. Crisp just pretty much died out there. I'm all set with Coco. Maybe we can bring in Rowand or something, but Coco Crisp? No thanks, ma'am. He's got defense, that's about it. By this logic, I guess we should've kept Gonzalez and Mientkiewicz too, but that didn't happen.

Of course, if we got Rowand then our payroll would take a pretty nice little spike, but I'm sure John doesn't mind spending all that money.

If it ain't Jacoby, Lester, Lowrie and Masterson....I'm not so sure it'll happen. If it just Jacoby, Lester and Lowrie...probably wouldn't be terrible.

MorseMoose · 12-04-2007, 09:23 AM

If it is Santana for Lester, Crisp, Lowrie and Masterson. The Twins are getting screwed. The Twins MUST have Ellsbury included in on this deal to make it worth it: Ellsbury, Lester, Lowrie and Masterson.

Gahhhhh...Then some douchebag I was reading was saying Santana and Neshek for Ellsbury, Lester, Lowrie and Masterson. F....that...

mh2365 · 12-04-2007, 11:34 AM

I thought the Sox were saying that Lester and Ellsbury would not both be in the deal.

QuestGAV · 12-04-2007, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mh2365

I thought the Sox were saying that Lester and Ellsbury would not both be in the deal.

They might be willing to do it if they get Neshek as well, he'd give them an effective right-handed bullpen arm to pair with Okajima in setting up Papelbon.

Erich Ingram · 12-04-2007, 11:46 AM

I still don't think that the Sox will give up both Lester and Ellsbury in a deal to just get Santana. At least that is not what it sounds like here.

jbergey22 · 12-04-2007, 11:46 AM

I hope the Twins dont do this. The Yankees offer is far better. Ellsbury is over rated IMO. They better get Bucholz or not even consider this. If they wait until July one of these giants will break and give up just as much as they are giving up now.

Erich Ingram · 12-04-2007, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I hope the Twins dont do this. The Yankees offer is far better. Ellsbury is over rated IMO. They better get Bucholz or not even consider this. If they wait until July one of these giants will break and give up just as much as they are giving up now.

Well first I disagree with you that Ellsbury is overrated the guy is an outstanding talent and the Sox probably don't make it to the World Series without him this year compared to who they had.

They are not going to get Buchholz in the deal.

The problem with waiting to July is that I believe that Santana has already stated he will not waive his no trade in the middle of the season.

QuestGAV · 12-04-2007, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich Ingram

I still don't think that the Sox will give up both Lester and Ellsbury in a deal to just get Santana. At least that is not what it sounds like here.

What I'm reading now is Ellsbury-Lowrie-Masterson or Lester-Crisp-Lowrie-Masterson. I would love to give up the second package to get Santana. I'd happily give up the first as well, but I don't think they get any long-term MLB starters who are significantly above average in the second deal. It's pretty crazy to think they'd rather take that than the Hughes-Cabrera deal the Yankees offered.

CommishJoe · 12-04-2007, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuestGAV

It's pretty crazy to think they'd rather take that than the Hughes-Cabrera deal the Yankees offered.

It could be one of 3 things:

1. MIN management is dumb
2. They are ticked off at Hank for spewing his mouth all over the place, so they are making it look like they are very interested in it.
3. They are trying to get the Yanks to blink about that 3rd player.

No way do I want to give up Kennedy in this deal along with Hughes and Cabrera. I'd be willing to give up a higher level prospect than Gonzalez, but I'd rather not do Jackson either. Bottom line, I'd rather him end up on the Red Sox then overpay in both kiddies and money. Might prove to be a dumb opinion in the long run, but I've seen the Yanks burnt by this kind of deal way too many times in my lifetime.

For the Twins, if they don't end up with either Ellsbury or Hughes, they got ripped.

Tony M · 12-04-2007, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CommishJoe

It could be one of 3 things:

1. MIN management is dumb
2. They are ticked off at Hank for spewing his mouth all over the place, so they are making it look like they are very interested in it.
3. They are trying to get the Yanks to blink about that 3rd player.

No way do I want to give up Kennedy in this deal along with Hughes and Cabrera. I'd be willing to give up a higher level prospect than Gonzalez, but I'd rather not do Jackson either. Bottom line, I'd rather him end up on the Red Sox then overpay in both kiddies and money. Might prove to be a dumb opinion in the long run, but I've seen the Yanks burnt by this kind of deal way too many times in my lifetime.

For the Twins, if they don't end up with either Ellsbury or Hughes, they got ripped.

If either the Sox or the Yankees get Santana then I think the one dead certainty for next year is that the Tampa Bay Rays won't be in the playoffs again

CommishJoe · 12-04-2007, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redsoxford

If either the Sox or the Yankees get Santana then I think the one dead certainty for next year is that the Tampa Bay Rays won't be in the playoffs again

HA! Ain't that the truth.

RageFromChaos · 12-04-2007, 03:12 PM

As far as signing Santana, I believe in that if the team wants to spend the money, then spend it. Manny will be off the books most likely after this season, as will Clement. That is $30 million off the books. I would not care if Santana was given $20-25 million-per for his talents. I would also not think twice about a Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Masterson deal. Jacoby would be a bit hard to deal with.

Moriarty9 · 12-04-2007, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RageFromChaos

As far as signing Santana, I believe in that if the team wants to spend the money, then spend it. Manny will be off the books most likely after this season, as will Clement. That is $30 million off the books. I would not care if Santana was given $20-25 million-per for his talents. I would also not think twice about a Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Masterson deal. Jacoby would be a bit hard to deal with.

Clement is already off the books ... he's a free agent.

MorseMoose · 12-05-2007, 09:04 AM

This seems to be getting out of hand. Both Jacoby Ellsbury and Jon Lester have fired their agents and have hired Scott Boras. Looks like they wanna stay in Boston...

12-03-2007, 07:37 AM	#41
Tony M Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Here Posts: 6,156	Reports are saying that Ellsbury has been offered in the trade for Santana taking the place of Crisp and Lester. The more I think about it, the less I see it as such a bad move. Sure, Crisp hasn't been the world's greatest hitter but he has very solid defence and like Ellsbury is quick on the bases. Would the value that Santana brings outweigh that of losing Ellsbury? Having four pitchers that can bring 15+ Win seasons takes some pressure off the batters (actually a rotation of Santana, Beckett, Dice-K, Schilling and Wake/Lester has the potential for 5 15+ Win pitchers if they all stay healthy) I'm sure Crisp has got a breakout season in him somewhere, and I'm sure Ellsbury is going to be a star, but can he replicate his October exploits for a whole season? Geez, I'm starting to sound like a Yankee owner in trading off prospects for aces... Having a look at the schedule, it's possible that by the 6th April Beckett (or maybe Santana) could be 3-0 for the season with the off-day patterns. Play the 25th March, 1st April and 4 days rest will get a third start on the 6th - most other teams will just be finishing a spin through their rotation. __________________ This signature is intentionally blank

12-03-2007, 09:39 PM	#46
The Sox Guy Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 37	Pretty much now a few of the Sox regulars have approved a Santana coming to Boston deal, so yeah. I'm gonna really miss Jacoby. Seriously, he's the reason why we won the World Series. He's the one who ignited the team and got things going. Crisp just pretty much died out there. I'm all set with Coco. Maybe we can bring in Rowand or something, but Coco Crisp? No thanks, ma'am. He's got defense, that's about it. By this logic, I guess we should've kept Gonzalez and Mientkiewicz too, but that didn't happen. Of course, if we got Rowand then our payroll would take a pretty nice little spike, but I'm sure John doesn't mind spending all that money. __________________ Boston Red Sox Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger.

12-04-2007, 11:46 AM	#51
Erich Ingram Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 2,201	I still don't think that the Sox will give up both Lester and Ellsbury in a deal to just get Santana. At least that is not what it sounds like here. __________________ Erich Ingram (Rolen17) IOSBL San Diego Aztecs 2010, 2012,2013, 2014 World Series Champions Maelstrom Padres 2026 World Champions eMLB Washington Nationals

12-03-2007, 01:17 PM	#42
towerofpower Minors (Single A) Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Canton, MA Posts: 82	/start rant I wasn't really emotionally involved with the Santanna debate until word came out about Elsbury also being included in the trade, which I think would be a horrible, horrible trade. Didn't the Sox learn anything last season when they "had" to make the trade for Gagne? I wish we could get Kason Gabbord back (and David Murphy too!) I think that it was written best in the book Moneyball, "Anytime a team thinks that is has to make a trade is usually when they make a mistake." Or something along those lines. Sure Santanna is a great pitcher but he's coming off of a down year and he's 29. There's no guarentee that he'll continue his trend (I know there's no guarentee with Elsbury either but at least he's not going to cost A-Rod dollars). My feeling is that this team just came off of winning the world series where the pitcher that threw a no-hitter didn't even start a game for them in the playoffs...hmm...I don't know maybe give Bucholz a chance at the rotation instead of trading away your future for Santanna. /end rant

12-03-2007, 01:22 PM	#43
QuestGAV Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Connecticut Posts: 2,008	Santana wasn't really that down last year, the Twins were down and it made him look bad. His K/9 and BB/9 were stable but his HR/9 took a bump. I don't think there's reason to believe that bump is permanent. Giving up Ellsbury would be tough, but only because of the contract Santana is going to get. Giving up great prospects for a guy who is going to command a huge salary is something I'd rather avoid in general. Then again, it's Johan-Freakin'-Santana and slotting him in with Beckett and Daisuke for the next 5-6 years gets me excited in ways that baseball should never excite a person.

12-03-2007, 01:35 PM	#44
Big Hugg All Star Reserve Join Date: May 2004 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 933	I think not making a Johan Santana deal just to hold onto Jacoby Ellsbury is a massive mistake. And this is coming from a guy who threw a complete fit when the Marlins passed on him twice in the draft. Big fan of his game, but he's not the kind of player you refuse to trade when you can get the best pitcher in baseball.

12-04-2007, 09:23 AM	#48
MorseMoose Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 6,023 Infractions: 1/1 (1)	If it is Santana for Lester, Crisp, Lowrie and Masterson. The Twins are getting screwed. The Twins MUST have Ellsbury included in on this deal to make it worth it: Ellsbury, Lester, Lowrie and Masterson. Gahhhhh...Then some douchebag I was reading was saying Santana and Neshek for Ellsbury, Lester, Lowrie and Masterson. F....that...

12-04-2007, 11:34 AM	#49
mh2365 Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: louisville Posts: 14,941 Infractions: 0/2 (101)	I thought the Sox were saying that Lester and Ellsbury would not both be in the deal.

12-04-2007, 11:46 AM	#52
jbergey22 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,481	I hope the Twins dont do this. The Yankees offer is far better. Ellsbury is over rated IMO. They better get Bucholz or not even consider this. If they wait until July one of these giants will break and give up just as much as they are giving up now.

12-04-2007, 03:12 PM	#58
RageFromChaos Bat Boy Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 8	As far as signing Santana, I believe in that if the team wants to spend the money, then spend it. Manny will be off the books most likely after this season, as will Clement. That is $30 million off the books. I would not care if Santana was given $20-25 million-per for his talents. I would also not think twice about a Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Masterson deal. Jacoby would be a bit hard to deal with.

12-05-2007, 09:04 AM	#60
MorseMoose Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 6,023 Infractions: 1/1 (1)	This seems to be getting out of hand. Both Jacoby Ellsbury and Jon Lester have fired their agents and have hired Scott Boras. Looks like they wanna stay in Boston...