Best Stat to Judge Overall Performance

darkenigma510 · 12-01-2007, 03:25 PM

Just wondering what people think is the best stat to judge the player that is the best all around player in a given year. Each of the stats out there has strengths and weaknesses. I was just curious what people here generally use to determine who the best player was, overall, in a given year. Poll to follow.

Prodigal Son · 12-01-2007, 03:33 PM

Where's the RBI option?

darkenigma510 · 12-01-2007, 03:35 PM

I purposely left it out..I should have said best SABRmetric stat.

Muppetus Galacticus · 12-01-2007, 03:37 PM

Goals and assists

Prodigal Son · 12-01-2007, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkenigma510

I purposely left it out..I should have said best SABRmetric stat.

Well that's too bad. I think RBI is the best way. Asking which SABRmetric stat is best at measuring performance is like asking which species of slug is the fastest.

RBI has been around for a long time for a reason. Baseball is all about producing runs and hitting in the clutch. If you show me a team with the highest number of RBI's, it'll be the team with the best offense.

Russ · 12-01-2007, 05:15 PM

RBI is a stat that has been considered overrated for so long it is now underrated.

Russ · 12-01-2007, 05:16 PM

Plus, all of the above have their flaws. No one stat is going to give you what you are looking for. It's best to take a combination.

mikev · 12-01-2007, 05:44 PM

Wins.

rem · 12-01-2007, 06:12 PM

W/L percentage

Lastplaneout · 12-01-2007, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prodigal Son

RBI has been around for a long time for a reason. Baseball is all about producing runs and hitting in the clutch. If you show me a team with the highest number of RBI's, it'll be the team with the best offense.

Looking at RBI numbers is really just beating around the bush. I say that whoever is batting #3 for the team that wins the World Series is the best hitter.

darkenigma510 · 12-01-2007, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikev

Wins.

Is there a win stat for batters?

rem · 12-01-2007, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkenigma510

Is there a win stat for batters?

walk-off homeruns, duh

darkenigma510 · 12-01-2007, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

Plus, all of the above have their flaws. No one stat is going to give you what you are looking for. It's best to take a combination.

I would agree. Just curious if people here preferred one over the other, and if so, why.

darkenigma510 · 12-01-2007, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prodigal Son

Well that's too bad. I think RBI is the best way. Asking which SABRmetric stat is best at measuring performance is like asking which species of slug is the fastest.

RBI has been around for a long time for a reason. Baseball is all about producing runs and hitting in the clutch. If you show me a team with the highest number of RBI's, it'll be the team with the best offense.

I guess that is what the "Other" option is for.

Prodigal Son · 12-01-2007, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lastplaneout

Looking at RBI numbers is really just beating around the bush. I say that whoever is batting #3 for the team that wins the World Series is the best hitter.

A lot of times, whoever is batting #3 for the best team is the best hitter in baseball.

And the RBI leaders this year were from a lot of different teams:

A-Rod 156
Ordonez 139
Holliday 137
Howard 136
Guerrero 125

Not coincidentally, that's as good a list of who were the best hitters in the league this season as about any other stat will show you. And these guys got it done in the clutch, which is all that matters in baseball.

rem · 12-01-2007, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prodigal Son

A lot of times, whoever is batting #3 for the best team is the best hitter in baseball.

And the RBI leaders this year were from a lot of different teams:

A-Rod 156
Ordonez 139
Holliday 137
Howard 136
Guerrero 125

Not coincidentally, that's as good a list of who were the best hitters in the league this season as about any other stat will show you. And these guys got it done in the clutch, which is all that matters in baseball.

If you go by batting average, you can scratch Howard as one of the best hitters in baseball.

Prodigal Son · 12-01-2007, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by remangiii

If you go by batting average, you can scratch Howard as one of the best hitters in baseball.

But Howard was one of the best hitters, so that shows how batting average sucks. It's so park-dependent and doesn't really measure value. The idea of winning baseball isn't to get hits, it's to get runs. The RBI stat directly measures that instead of measuring something (average) that is only correlated to runs. Cut out the middle man and go straight to RBI.

Carplos · 12-01-2007, 08:20 PM

It's amazing to me that someone would discount a stat because of park-dependency... but then ignore all the factors RBIs are dependent on.

QuestGAV · 12-02-2007, 12:19 AM

I think your sarcasm detector is busted carplos.

To get to the original question, there's no way you can summarize a player's performance with one number. None of them give enough context. At the very least you need a rate stat and a counting stat - I like EQA and WARP3 because they're on the same page at BBPro but VORP is probably a better stat than WARP. In any case, none of the stats listed considers defense in any meaningful way and that's a pretty damn important part of performance for any position player.

Jason Moyer · 12-02-2007, 08:43 AM

Not that I would try to base a player's value on a single, unadjusted counting stat but...if I were, I think I'd be more inclined to use runs rather than RBI, since runs are much more a function of a player's offensive ability, where RBI are almost entirely dependant on a player's spot in the lineup and the abilities of the players batting in front of him.

View Poll Results: Which stat do you think provides the best proxy for overall performance in a specific year?
Win Shares (WS)	3	11.54%
Win Shares Above Bench (WSAB)	0	0%
Value Over Replacement Player (VORP)	11	42.31%
Wins Above Replacement Player (WARP1)	6	23.08%
Equivalent Average (EqA)	0	0%
Runs Created (RC)	0	0%
Runs Created per 27 Outs (RC27)	3	11.54%
Other (please specify)	3	11.54%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

12-01-2007, 03:25 PM	#1
darkenigma510 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Wild West Posts: 1,353	Best Stat to Judge Overall Performance Just wondering what people think is the best stat to judge the player that is the best all around player in a given year. Each of the stats out there has strengths and weaknesses. I was just curious what people here generally use to determine who the best player was, overall, in a given year. Poll to follow.

12-01-2007, 05:15 PM	#6
Russ All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Essex HON! Posts: 1,923 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	RBI is a stat that has been considered overrated for so long it is now underrated. __________________ If you don't love Russ, you don't love America. This post brought to you by Carl's Jr.

12-01-2007, 05:16 PM	#7
Russ All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Essex HON! Posts: 1,923 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Plus, all of the above have their flaws. No one stat is going to give you what you are looking for. It's best to take a combination. __________________ If you don't love Russ, you don't love America. This post brought to you by Carl's Jr.

12-01-2007, 05:44 PM	#8
mikev Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 4,014	Wins. __________________ Global Unified Baseball Association - Vice Commish and Oakland Oaks GM

12-01-2007, 03:33 PM	#2
Prodigal Son All Star Starter Join Date: May 2006 Location: Iahiodo a.k.a. the flyover Posts: 1,635	Where's the RBI option?

12-01-2007, 03:35 PM	#3
darkenigma510 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Wild West Posts: 1,353	I purposely left it out..I should have said best SABRmetric stat.

12-01-2007, 06:12 PM	#9
rem Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: College Park, Md. Posts: 5,024	W/L percentage __________________ OTBA: Washington Filibusters CLBR: Minnesota Twins 2005 Winner of LL's Pick the Loser Contest! - 15-0

12-01-2007, 08:20 PM	#18
Carplos Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,908 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	It's amazing to me that someone would discount a stat because of park-dependency... but then ignore all the factors RBIs are dependent on.

12-02-2007, 12:19 AM	#19
QuestGAV Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 2,010	I think your sarcasm detector is busted carplos. To get to the original question, there's no way you can summarize a player's performance with one number. None of them give enough context. At the very least you need a rate stat and a counting stat - I like EQA and WARP3 because they're on the same page at BBPro but VORP is probably a better stat than WARP. In any case, none of the stats listed considers defense in any meaningful way and that's a pretty damn important part of performance for any position player.

12-02-2007, 08:43 AM	#20
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,112	Not that I would try to base a player's value on a single, unadjusted counting stat but...if I were, I think I'd be more inclined to use runs rather than RBI, since runs are much more a function of a player's offensive ability, where RBI are almost entirely dependant on a player's spot in the lineup and the abilities of the players batting in front of him. __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech