Reward: $$$ for a roster set the community approves of

[DougWyatt]

Originally Posted by Kaitiaki

You need to brush up on your facts, because that statement is absolutely untrue. Yes, MLB lost. Then they appealed the decision. That appeal process is still going on. So absolutely nothing has been settled yet.

From this Sports Illustrated article, the appeal was only heard on June 15th of this year, with a decision expected three to six months after then (so, sometime between September 15th and December 15th of this year). And even should MLB lose the appeal, they have further recourse:



Blame the legal system for its laborious and byzantine appeals process if you want, but the incontestable reality of the moment remains that use of real players and real statistics for a commercial baseball product not licensed by MLB/MLBPA remains legally dubious at best.

- Kai

No, you need to reread my post - and/or brush up on your facts. Because everything in my post was completely true, please point out to me something in my post that was "absolutely untrue".

The MLB did indeed lose it's case, and yes - as you said - they did appeal. But, the fact that they appealed doesn't mean .... "We're not sure whether or not we can use these" ---- what it means, is AS OF RIGHT NOW - it IS completely legal to use players names and stats - freely; with no consequence. It's not all put on hold to determine the outcome of the appeal. There was a RULING, and MLB is trying again.

Now, could this change in the future due to the appeal or future cases - sure. Does that effect the law as it stands now ? No. Can companies be punished for doing something legal ?

As I said, it could change in the future (but I'd bet you quite a bit that it won't)... but as of now - SI and every other company has complete legal right to use MLB players names & statistics.

[deadringer]

You know, I'd be pretty happy if Markus and SI would just try to work out a way to make creating a real life roster easier. Maybe meet with the guys that have worked so hard on them this year and pick their brain about what could be done to make it easier.

[JHruska]

Y'all both need to get your facts right. The fantasy baseball lawsuit has nothing to do with whether or not SI can use the names in the game. The licensing agreement for the use of players real names in video games has long been established as a right of the Player's Association, and they've currently signed a seven year deal giving Take Two exclusive rights to do so.

[DougWyatt]

Originally Posted by JHruska

Y'all both need to get your facts right. The fantasy baseball lawsuit has nothing to do with whether or not SI can use the names in the game. The licensing agreement for the use of players real names in video games has long been established as a right of the Player's Association, and they've currently signed a seven year deal giving Take Two exclusive rights to do so.

Show me that.

I think you are confused by playing games, with people out or whatnot. The video games strike up a deal with MLB to use their teams ... the negotiation isn't with the players union ... not sure where you get that info. The players union in turn demands a cut from MLB, and demands that people not in their union not be included.

If you wanted to start a game with David Wright as the starting 3B for the Frenchtown Frenchmen - you can't be stopped. (Assuming the logo doesn't resemble copyrighted logos).

Again ... Player names and statistics are currently freely usable by the public - or gaming companies such as fantasy games.

Think about it, how could it be legal for hundreds of fantasy gaming companies to use the same information; and not other gaming companies ?

[f.montoya]

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

If it comes down to this, I'd rather spend the additional $10 or $20 and have SI do it officially.

So would I. But SI isn't going to do that right now and they still market this game toward the fictional and historical players.

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

Think of it: What is the incentive for anybody to do anything here without being paid if this is to be the approach? The great community spirit was one of the reasons that I became active here, in order to thank the people who had done such wonderful work for me to enjoy. Right now, this sense of community is the only thing bringing me back here.

I agree. I don't want to destroy this spirit of generosity either. If my offer is seen as doing that, I will remove it and we can keep things as they are.

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

My conviction was shaken, however, by the ugly nonsense that was going on over that promised roster set. It was obvious that the guy really had nothing to offer, but people were outraged not by the lack of a roster set but by being yanked around for months and taken for fools. I could not blame them, but the roster set was not the main issue, I firmly believe.

While you are right, being yanked around being the main issue, a roster set is SUCH a big deal to those who use them that it magnifies the torture. I simply was looking for a way to get something done in earnest. As E.C. says, sometimes the only way is with an incentive of being paid, unfortunately.

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

Imagine if money were at stake now, and modders did a ton of work only to be told that somebody thought to be more popular was awarded the "prize" for work perceived to be inferior.

I can see your point. Maybe a different approach to deciding the winner? Maybe a prize for all participants? I don't know. Just thinking out loud here.

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

Besides losing the charming aspect of volunteerism that, to me at least, is unique, I too am concerned about "flamewars and turf battles especially between the supporters of rival sets that dont win."

I wouldn't want any "flamewars" or turf battles but roster sets are a different beast when it comes to OOTP 2007, compared to making logos or creating an export tracker. I just don't think, even with monetary incentive, that we will have all that many people willing to spend the time to do it.

[RchW]

To keep the voluntary aspect of the Forum intact, why not modify the offer to be a contribution to the roster makers favorite charity, or local food bank.

I'm convinced that the people who offer mods and services to the community are not motivated by money. By making it a charitable donation you can keep a small element of competition alive and address the concerns of those who do not want to "pay" someone. I'll put my money where my mouth is and give $20 on that basis.

Either way I feel Fidel made this offer in a genuine effort to be helpful to the community.

[Tony M]

Originally Posted by RchW

I'm convinced that the people who offer mods and services to the community are not motivated by money.

You can get money for making mods???

Dang!!!

[jerrycapo]

Originally Posted by DougWyatt

Show me that.

I think you are confused by playing games, with people out or whatnot. The video games strike up a deal with MLB to use their teams ... the negotiation isn't with the players union ... not sure where you get that info. The players union in turn demands a cut from MLB, and demands that people not in their union not be included.

If you wanted to start a game with David Wright as the starting 3B for the Frenchtown Frenchmen - you can't be stopped. (Assuming the logo doesn't resemble copyrighted logos).

Again ... Player names and statistics are currently freely usable by the public - or gaming companies such as fantasy games.

Think about it, how could it be legal for hundreds of fantasy gaming companies to use the same information; and not other gaming companies ?

I would think that between SI and Sega, their lawyers would be looking into this and suggesting the best approach for OOTP to take. I will admit some ignorance of all the nuances of the law, but I am not sure that an appealed ruling is solid legal footing to claim somethings legality. In this situation CBC sued MLB becuase MLB told them to shut down their site or pay royalty fees. CBC won the initial case and MLB appealed the decision. Therfore should MLB win the final appeal, I would imagine they would have recourse to charge CBC not only for future use of the names, but also would be liable for payment to MLB from the date MLB gave them the ultimatum.

Therefore, I believe it behooves OOTP, SI, and Sega, to monitor this situation and wait until there is a final ruling. In the meantime, hopefully Markus and company can work with some of the roster makers and take the necessary steps to help make roster creation easier.

[deadringer]

I don't think this is about mods for money nearly as much as it is about just how desperate some sections of the community are for real life rosters.

Maybe we just got spoiled when the game used to come with the rosters that if you changed the names of the players and teams you were set.

I wonder which would be more valuable, an accurate real life opening day roster or a lahman style database for minor leagues? If you could just import the minors as well as the major league players I'm guessing it could speed things up quite a bit for roster creators. Plus, this could be done over the winter as soon as the seasons end. That way, the roster guys could import the whole world and all that would be left would be tweaking / adjustments. No doubt it would still be a huge undertaking but I would have to think it would cut some time / effort off for them.

[DrArbiter]

Originally Posted by deadringer

I wonder which would be more valuable, an accurate real life opening day roster or a lahman style database for minor leagues? If you could just import the minors as well as the major league players I'm guessing it could speed things up quite a bit for roster creators.

If this would help a roster creator for next year 'round, I do have minor league stats for organized ball back to 1994, and indy back to 2000, in electronic form. I'm almost done with 2007 -- have to wait for the Atlantic and a couple OB leagues to close.

Drawbacks: Only the last 3 years' worth of OB data are keyed to any sort of ID system; everything else is raw. And, you'll have to do all the MLE calculations yourself. Also, I've only go biographical data on players who played in OB in 2007, but I assume that's all most roster creators would be needing.

[DougWyatt]

Originally Posted by jerrycapo

I would think that between SI and Sega, their lawyers would be looking into this and suggesting the best approach for OOTP to take. I will admit some ignorance of all the nuances of the law, but I am not sure that an appealed ruling is solid legal footing to claim somethings legality. In this situation CBC sued MLB becuase MLB told them to shut down their site or pay royalty fees. CBC won the initial case and MLB appealed the decision. Therfore should MLB win the final appeal, I would imagine they would have recourse to charge CBC not only for future use of the names, but also would be liable for payment to MLB from the date MLB gave them the ultimatum.

Therefore, I believe it behooves OOTP, SI, and Sega, to monitor this situation and wait until there is a final ruling. In the meantime, hopefully Markus and company can work with some of the roster makers and take the necessary steps to help make roster creation easier.

Well, it is. It is solid legal footing. As I've said, as it stands now - it is legal & was deemed legal in a court of law. People and companies can appeal nearly endlessly, but the law doesn't change until after the ruling does. MLB appealing doesn't "put the case in limbo" until after the appeal.

My whole take is this ... alot of posters throw up -- the "it's not SI's fault - it's against the law". And it peeves me. Plain and simple, they choose not to. Many customers don't care if they have real rosters or not, but those that do should be able to voice their requests to the company - without being bombarded with all the misguided legal talk.

Now, my opinion.... SI chooses not too because they know their customers will do it for them - so there isn't a reason to invest the resources. That is just my opinion though.

Hopefully the roster set "drama" the last couple years will push SI in the direction to take action.

[1998 Yankees]

Originally Posted by RchW

Either way I feel Fidel made this offer in a genuine effort to be helpful to the community.

No question of that whatsoever.

[jerrycapo]

Originally Posted by DougWyatt

Well, it is. It is solid legal footing. As I've said, as it stands now - it is legal & was deemed legal in a court of law. People and companies can appeal nearly endlessly, but the law doesn't change until after the ruling does. MLB appealing doesn't "put the case in limbo" until after the appeal.

I'll admit I am somewhat ignorant of all of the nuances of the law. Outside a couple of classes dealing with business law I really do not have that much exposure. May I ask what your background in the legal system is?

Originally Posted by DougWyatt

My whole take is this ... alot of posters throw up -- the "it's not SI's fault - it's against the law". And it peeves me. Plain and simple, they choose not to. Many customers don't care if they have real rosters or not, but those that do should be able to voice their requests to the company - without being bombarded with all the misguided legal talk.

I am not saying it is against the law, just that it may behoove SI to wait until the appeals process has played through. Regardless, if it is legal today, I believe that the lawyers they have access to would steer them in the proper direction. Here is a thread in which Marc stated he was forwarding the information on this case to their legal team.

Originally Posted by DougWyatt

Now, my opinion.... SI chooses not too because they know their customers will do it for them - so there isn't a reason to invest the resources. That is just my opinion though.

Hopefully the roster set "drama" the last couple years will push SI in the direction to take action.

And we all know what they say about opinions. OOTP has come with MLB rosters in prior versions. I know OOTP2 & 3 had them, it was around v4 & 5, when they made the switch. Even back then people still released their own roster sets. When the change was made it was because the legal risk was deemed to be too high. I agree that the people who want to have roster sets included deserve to have their voices heard. I completely support that notion for roster sets as much as I support it for people who feel the scouting system needs to be better.

[kingofdmv]

Originally Posted by jerrycapo

And we all know what they say about opinions. OOTP has come with MLB rosters in prior versions. I know OOTP2 & 3 had them, it was around v4 & 5, when they made the switch. Even back then people still released their own roster sets. When the change was made it was because the legal risk was deemed to be too high. I agree that the people who want to have roster sets included deserve to have their voices heard. I completely support that notion for roster sets as much as I support it for people who feel the scouting system needs to be better.

And if you'll remember one of the conditions for games to use the Major League Baseball Players' Association license was that it couldn't use real dollars in player contracts, team revenues, and the other financial aspects of the game. Because, lord knows, we don't want proof of those exorbitant salaries to get out do we? I know there were other conditions placed on the games back then, but I can't recall at the moment. Baseball Mogul used the point system for a few years. I'm sure this is one of the reasons Marcus decided to use real stats with fake names, and eventually no real players at all.

Of course now I guess MLB is proud of the billions they hand out to players , because that point system is now gone.

[treedom]

I'm not sure how this whole question of copyright is going to shake out, but, seeing as how it's currently on shaky legal ground at best, wouldn't someone accepting money for the distribution of player information, as the OP suggests, be putting themselves into a potentially risky legal situation?

[Go Tribe]

Originally Posted by treedom

I'm not sure how this whole question of copyright is going to shake out, but, seeing as how it's currently on shaky legal ground at best, wouldn't someone accepting money for the distribution of player information, as the OP suggests, be putting themselves into a potentially risky legal situation?

how is it on shaky legal ground? they lost - as of 9/13/2007 the ruling is that mlb doesn't own the rights to players stats. even if they win the appeal, anything that happens between now and the decision can't be made retroactively illegal. IMO Markus and/or SI don't want to bother with it and this is their convenient way of saying their hands are tied.

Put me down for $20 for a roster set that has full majors and minors (not necessarily every minor league player mind you but the top 20-30 prospects per team), up to date contracts, up to date stadium info, schedule, logos, managers, league history, and none of the errors that popped up with the other sets. i'm pretty sure the others donating money would agree with those stipulations.

[da commish]

Here's a link to the news release from Take-Two regarding their licensing agreement with MLBP, MLBPA and MLBAM. EA dropped their MVP Baseball game because of this.
http://ir.take2games.com/ReleaseDeta...leaseID=154141

[DougWyatt]

Originally Posted by da commish

Here's a link to the news release from Take-Two regarding their licensing agreement with MLBP, MLBPA and MLBAM. EA dropped their MVP Baseball game because of this.
http://ir.take2games.com/ReleaseDeta...leaseID=154141

Originally Posted by DougWyatt

The only catch is team names, logos, etc. They do belong to MLB. But those things are EASY to edit. Changing the Detroit Bengals to the Detroit Tigers, and slapping in the logos into a roster set would be easy stuff.

I'm sure EA knew that it'd really hurt sales for Justin Verlander to be a starting pitcher on the Detroit MoCats with some cheesy logo. And, it's more difficult and alot less popular for "game players" (PS2, XBox, etc.) to mod these things.