Mayweather-Hatton

[mh2365]

Going into the Mayweather fight he was 4-1 (1-1 at MW) at JMW .. but okay he was .500 above his best weight by whatever means you want to count.

The fact is that ODLH was in excellent shape for the Mayweather fight and he was 20lbs heavier than Mayweather when they stepped into the ring on May 5th. The day of weight for ODLH was 164 and for Floyd it was 144.

A 20lb. weight differential at JMW is huge esp when they are both in great shape. If you don't think that 20lb is a big advantage at JMW then I guess I don't know what to say to that.

You know while were on the topic, I'm not going to say that ODLH was prime against Mayweather but since when does losing to Shane Mosley and Bernard Hopkins make you past your prime. You like to talk about ODLH like he is now Roy Jones or something. He was in the Hopkins fight until the KO and he probably beat Mosley the second time around. Looking over the top 20 JMW's right now I don't see one that would have an easy time let alone beat ODLH.

So saying a win over him isn't that impressive because he is old and post prime is a bit absurd.

[meade95]

Wait - Here is ODLH record above 147 (and mind you his solid wins come 4 to 6 YEARS ago above 147). But no, he's still the same fighter.

Above 147 Here is ODLH record -

Javier Castillejo (6 years ago!) W UD

Fernando Vargas (5 years ago!) W TKO 11th

Yory Boy Campas (4 years ago) W TKO 7th (Yori Boy having been KO'd a fight before)

Shane Mosley (4 years ago) L UD

Felix Sturm (3 years ago) W UD (razor close - A fight in which many thought Sturm won, for the record)

Bernard Hopkins L KO by 9

Ricardo Mayorga W TKO 6th ( Mayorga lost two of his last 3 fights going into this)


So, ODLH only win of note (going into PBF) above 147 in the past 4 years (4 YEARS!)....was over a blown-up, extremely limited, loser of two out of his last 3 fights.....R. Mayorga).

Again, your notion that ODLH was a better fighter above 147 just isn't reality - Nor is a proven reality that PBF isn't actually better than ODLH above 147.....(as of now, he most certainly is, in fact).

Again, ODLH weighing 162 has never proven to be a top notch fighter - He's lost his two biggest fights when coming in that heavy....SSM and Hopkins.....(and now to PBF)

Also, I never said PBF (close) victory over ODLH wasn't a good win. I said, that him beating a ODLH who was fighting above his best weight....Didn't "ADD" anything to such a victory (you suggested because he beat a 20 pound heavier ODLH....that made up for the fact that ODLH was fighting above his best weight and post-prime).

And you can talk and spin all you want....about how you think ODLH would beat any and all top-20 JMW right now.....Fact is, he doesn't hold a solid win in that division in over 4 years! - 4 Years!....Nah, several of them would beat ODLH today....and they'd do one better than PBF...They'd stop him....

[mh2365]

Originally Posted by meade95

PBF came into his fight in great condition and took care of business (barely) Vs an old-post-prime ODLH...Who was fighting at a weight he was never all that good at....

Yes you do downgrade Floyd's win just by saying crap like this. So 4-1 with the one loss really questionable is never all that good at JMW???? I agree he was never all that good at MW though.

I never once said anywhere that Oscar was better at JMW than at 147. What I said for the 15th time is that Floyd beat a fighter who was 20 lbs heavier than him walking into the ring.

But read what you want ... you humor me.

Love how you put the little note next to Sturm but not next to the Mosley fight. Classic Meade!


Name a current JMW who would beat Oscar right now.

[mh2365]

Current other 9 JMW fighters according to Ring Magazine (excluding ODLH who is #3)

Cory Spinks
Roman Karmazin
Kassim Ouma
Sergei Dzindziruk
Vernon Forrest
Joachim Alcine
Travis Simms
Ike Quartey
Verno Phillips


Not a single one of those guys would be favored over the May 5th ODLH. IMO Oscar would go 8-1 or 9-0 against those guys.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by mh2365

Yes you do downgrade Floyd's win just by saying crap like this. So 4-1 with the one loss really questionable is never all that good at JMW???? I agree he was never all that good at MW though.

I never once said anywhere that Oscar was better at JMW than at 147. What I said for the 15th time is that Floyd beat a fighter who was 20 lbs heavier than him walking into the ring.

But read what you want ... you humor me.

Love how you put the little note next to Sturm but not next to the Mosley fight. Classic Meade!


Name a current JMW who would beat Oscar right now.

Wait a second here -

You didn't just say "PBF beat ODLH who was 20lbs heavier than him"....You said because ODLH was 20lbs heavier....that makes up for the facts that ODLH was still post-prime and fighting above his best weight -

And it doesn't. It is what it is,.....PBF won a very close decision over ODLH. ODLH came in apprx 20 pound heavier than PBF on fight night.....ODLH was at a weight in which he has never fought all that well -

(also - Side note here -Holyfield routinely beat up fighters who greatly outweighed him ....and You are licking PBF nuts over doing it once (barely) while constantly trying to suggest Holyfield is overrated ....Some perverted logic you have going here - But lets go on )

Here's the reality....PBF won a close decision over an Post-prime ODLH who weighed 20 pounds more than him on fight night - But it should also be noted that ODLH at such a weight....was clearly above where he was best at.

Again, ODLH didn't have a notable win above 147 in over 4 years (YEARS) going into the PBF fight -

Now who out there would beat ODLH at 154-160 today (where he weighed in on that night...of 162). A number of them off my head....

Cotto
SSM
Forrest
S Dzinziruk
J Julio
R Karmazin


And then there are another dozen I'd give even money to beat him as well - F. Strum put ODLH in a life and death battle (and that was 4 years ago!! at 154). There are plenty of young, strong guys who if given the shot and put in the ring at 154-160 with ODLH today would give him hell - (but ODLH isn't going to fight any of them because there is no $$$ in it).

Again, you can say he could, would, should,......Reality is reality...ODLH doesn't have a solid win over 147 in 4 years!

[mh2365]

ODLH would easily outbox Julio and Karmazin ... Cotto and Mosley are campaigning at WW and I said current JMW. Plus Mosley didn't clearly win the last ODLH fight so I can't say for sure he would win now.

I hope you are joking about Forrest and I don't know enough about Dzinziruk but I guarentee Oscar would be favored.

20lbs at HW is a lot different then 20lbs at JMW but whatever crude keyboard gansta terms you want to use we all know who can't have a biased opinion on this board

Felix Sturm was at 160 so once again your facts are wrong. You keep throwing out notable win in 4 years ... yet is doesn't dispute the fact that he is 4-1 with the 1 being questionable at JMW.

Like I said in a previous post I'm not saying ODLH is prime but no one should take away anything from Floyd's win over him, which you do.

And yes I think the fact that between two JMW's in excellent shape 20lbs is a huge advantage.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by mh2365

ODLH would easily outbox Julio and Karmazin ... Cotto and Mosley are campaigning at WW and I said current JMW. Plus Mosley didn't clearly win the last ODLH fight so I can't say for sure he would win now.

I hope you are joking about Forrest and I don't know enough about Dzinziruk but I guarentee Oscar would be favored.

20lbs at HW is a lot different then 20lbs at JMW but whatever crude keyboard gansta terms you want to use we all know who can't have a biased opinion on this board

Felix Sturm was at 160 so once again your facts are wrong. You keep throwing out notable win in 4 years ... yet is doesn't dispute the fact that he is 4-1 with the 1 being questionable at JMW.

Like I said in a previous post I'm not saying ODLH is prime but no one should take away anything from Floyd's win over him, which you do.

And yes I think the fact that between two JMW's in excellent shape 20lbs is a huge advantage.

No - Anyone can go read - I didn't take anything away from PBF win over ODLH (othen than to point out the fact that ODLH is post-prime and anything above 147 was never his best weight) - You then curiously suggested just because ODLH outweighed PBF by 20 pounds....that somehow oddly erases the reality of ODLH being post-prime and above his best fighting weight.

(you also keep oddly saying "I never said ODLH wasn't post-prime".....No one has ever suggested you said that though? - I've pointed out what you did say (which is even weird'er) - That is, you suggested that just because ODLH was 20lbs heavier on fight night...that erases the reality that ODLH was post-prime --

Again, name ONE solid notable win for ODLH in 4 YEARS prior to PBF (you want to go with Mayorga??? Seriously, you want to go with that?). Reality is ODLH did not have a solid win of note in over 4 years going into the PBF fight -

You also keep insisting he was "in great shape".....How so? I saw him dragging as$ and unable to throw a jab for the last 6 rounds of the fight....

Insisting that ODLH was in "great shape" doesn't make it so - He gassed out during the fight, couldn't throw a jab or keep up the pressure (PBF said he could tell ODLH was tiring by the 5th round!! - Yet, you are saying "he was in great shape") - When in reality it looks like that heavier weight might have made old ODLH start gassing out a few rounds quicker than normal.... No?


And for the record ANYONE can fight at JMW (that is at 154 or BELOW). Didn't PBF just ODLH at that weight...(and he's not 154). Therefore I was naming a number of fighters at 154 or below that could beat ODLH.

[mh2365]

I thought ODLH looked great up until the 8th or 9th round. Mayweather tires out a lot of fighters ... Judah is always in great shape but looked worn out by the 8th or 9th against Mayweather also.

Bottom line is whether you agree or not 20lbs is a huge advantage at the lower weights. IMO it erased any slight advantage Mayweather might of had with the 4 year age difference. Anyone can read and anytime you mention the win you say vs. and old post-prime Oscar which takes away from the win.

If you want to argue notable wins you can discuss that with any fighter.

Your boy Holyfield really only had 4 quality wins in 19 years at HW. Even that is questionable if you give him Dokes and Mercer (two very average fighters IMO) and Moorer (a LHW). Throw in Bowe and he has 4 quality wins in 19 years.

You can make that argument about anyone over the past 20 years if you want to try.

Bottom line is ODLH is 4-2 at JMW with the two loses to Mayweather and Mosley (questionable) two all-time greats. So while JMW is not Oscar's best weight he is the best JMW, it's absurd to downgrade Mayweather's win over him by saying he wasn't at his best weight or he was old and post prime.

You like to make arguments when it helps your cause yet ignore them when it doesn't help. In another thread you tout Holyfield wins over Tyson and Foreman. Why not go back and put Holyfield had two wins over a post-prime out of prison Tyson who didn't have a quality win in 6 years. Or put Holyfield had a win over 42 year old End stage Foreman? Nope you don't do that because it doesn't help your argument ... anyways I'm done with you in this thread.

Back to the topic ... Mayweather by 10-2 or late stoppage by cuts. Then all the haters will say he beat a smaller fighter who wasn't really a WW.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by mh2365

I thought ODLH looked great up until the 8th or 9th round. Mayweather tires out a lot of fighters ... Judah is always in great shape but looked worn out by the 8th or 9th against Mayweather also.

Bottom line is whether you agree or not 20lbs is a huge advantage at the lower weights. IMO it erased any slight advantage Mayweather might of had with the 4 year age difference. Anyone can read and anytime you mention the win you say vs. and old post-prime Oscar which takes away from the win.

If you want to argue notable wins you can discuss that with any fighter.

Your boy Holyfield really only had 4 quality wins in 19 years at HW. Even that is questionable if you give him Dokes and Mercer (two very average fighters IMO) and Moorer (a LHW). Throw in Bowe and he has 4 quality wins in 19 years.

You can make that argument about anyone over the past 20 years if you want to try.

Bottom line is ODLH is 4-2 at JMW with the two loses to Mayweather and Mosley (questionable) two all-time greats. So while JMW is not Oscar's best weight he is the best JMW, it's absurd to downgrade Mayweather's win over him by saying he wasn't at his best weight or he was old and post prime.

You like to make arguments when it helps your cause yet ignore them when it doesn't help. In another thread you tout Holyfield wins over Tyson and Foreman. Why not go back and put Holyfield had two wins over a post-prime out of prison Tyson who didn't have a quality win in 6 years. Or put Holyfield had a win over 42 year old End stage Foreman? Nope you don't do that because it doesn't help your argument ... anyways I'm done with you in this thread.

Back to the topic ... Mayweather by 10-2 or late stoppage by cuts. Then all the haters will say he beat a smaller fighter who wasn't really a WW.

Bottom line is a 20lb advantage is only an advantage if it is in your style to use it (and you're in shape and able to fight effectively at that weight). See Gatti steamrolling the smaller Joey Gamache (sp) - Gatti going out swining for the fences early....

James Toney was 20lbs heavier than Roy Jones when they fought (on fight night) at SMW - How much did that help him??? - It didn't, it hurt him.

Your silly take on Holyfield career isn't worth the argument - It is foolish - And wouldn't be taken seriously enough by hardly any boxing historians.....Yeah, Burt Sugar, Ring and plenty others only have him in their Top-10 HW of all-time because he doesn't have that many notable wins.....(Do you think they will have ODLH in even their Top-15 all-time for JMWs?? - doubtful that they will - ODLH will be ranked in their Top-15 at WW and down likely).


And if PBF fights and beats Hatton.....It won't be people saying he beat Hatton above Hatton's best weight....(because they are haters)...It will be, because it is reality. Hatton has never looked good fighting above 140.

Nobody is "hating" on PBF because of that fact. Why didn't he fight Hatton at 140?? (Where Hatton was at his best?....If PBF didn't want people saying such?) He fought the least of the best at JWW while he was there - Ditto that for WW - Why didn't he face Cotto, Williams, Magarito, etc -

The last person PBF fought (who was considered the best at the weight he was moving to) was Vs Castillo at LW.....And he had two very close fights with him....Which he edged them out.

Now take Holyfield - He simply always fought who was considered the best - AT CW & at HW. He has always faced the toughest competition. Taken on the best of who they said was out there - He IS the common denominator who has faced every major HW name of the late 80's / 90's - None of the other HW did such -

Nor has PBF - He has moved by both JWW, WW without facing any of those considered "the best" at those weights. If people point that out....It ain't "haten".

[mh2365]

You are always good for a laugh. Thanks for entertaining me.

[Jim_Kidd]

Too bad some of these debates couldn't be captured in video. You know, like a video discussion board. A whole lot more room on the server would be needed.

I was actually toying with putting together a Fantasy boxing web site. I'd set it up so I'd have RSS feeds, too. My company does website marketing and hosting, etc. So, I'd just have to get a bust of energy and do it.

If I do decide to go that route, I would love to a pro's and con's column featuring mh2365 and meade95 as the regulars.

I'm serious!

You guys wouldn't even have to write special articles. Everything you write here could be copied, edited and reformatted for reading purposes.

If I were mega-wealthy, I'd video tape it in a bar. One guy's playing pool and stops to give his analysis. The other, who's playing darts, stops and does the same. Then, of course, some words would fly from across the room. And maybe a few objects, too.

People would love it!

[hamed]

I think this could be another shot in the arm for boxing - once again 2 undefeated fighters going at it!

I saw that story about MMA again on "60 Minutes" last night (a repeat from Dec.) & while that sport may be growing, will they ever have 2 unbeaten fighters with great records like Floyd & Hatton?

I recall when Texas & USC met, both unbeaten but they had great tradition too. Something about 2 unbeatens meeting that attracts people. Heck, I'll even watch 2 unbeaten Division III college teams play I've never heard of before if it's for a title because I'm interested in the fact neither team has lost all season.

And the winner here (I assume Floyd) could potentially face 2 more unbeaten guys in 2008 with Cotto & P. Williams.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by Jim_Kidd

Too bad some of these debates couldn't be captured in video. You know, like a video discussion board. A whole lot more room on the server would be needed.

I was actually toying with putting together a Fantasy boxing web site. I'd set it up so I'd have RSS feeds, too. My company does website marketing and hosting, etc. So, I'd just have to get a bust of energy and do it.

If I do decide to go that route, I would love to a pro's and con's column featuring mh2365 and meade95 as the regulars.

I'm serious!

You guys wouldn't even have to write special articles. Everything you write here could be copied, edited and reformatted for reading purposes.

If I were mega-wealthy, I'd video tape it in a bar. One guy's playing pool and stops to give his analysis. The other, who's playing darts, stops and does the same. Then, of course, some words would fly from across the room. And maybe a few objects, too.

People would love it!

Good stuff - That's funny -

Ahh, while mh2365 and I disagree quite often.......it is all in good fun and always just about "boxing".....So nothing wrong with that.

Hell, these forums wouldn't be much fun if there wasn't the daily disagreement of opinion from a few of us on here.

I'm sure mh2365 and I would have a blast watcing fights together somenight - debating back and forth the whole time.......

[meade95]

Originally Posted by hamed

I think this could be another shot in the arm for boxing - once again 2 undefeated fighters going at it!

I saw that story about MMA again on "60 Minutes" last night (a repeat from Dec.) & while that sport may be growing, will they ever have 2 unbeaten fighters with great records like Floyd & Hatton?

I recall when Texas & USC met, both unbeaten but they had great tradition too. Something about 2 unbeatens meeting that attracts people. Heck, I'll even watch 2 unbeaten Division III college teams play I've never heard of before if it's for a title because I'm interested in the fact neither team has lost all season.

And the winner here (I assume Floyd) could potentially face 2 more unbeaten guys in 2008 with Cotto & P. Williams.

Agreed - Without a doubt PBF Vs Hatton is healthy for boxing - Do we know? Is it at 147?

[Jim_Kidd]

Originally Posted by meade95

Good stuff - That's funny -

Ahh, while mh2365 and I disagree quite often.......it is all in good fun and always just about "boxing".....So nothing wrong with that.

Hell, these forums wouldn't be much fun if there wasn't the daily disagreement of opinion from a few of us on here.

I'm sure mh2365 and I would have a blast watcing fights together somenight - debating back and forth the whole time.......

Well, if I do go through with the boxing site, you two guys will be amongst the first know. We'll see what happens....

[hamed]

Originally Posted by meade95

Agreed - Without a doubt PBF Vs Hatton is healthy for boxing - Do we know? Is it at 147?

Yeah, last I heard it would be @ 147 - for Floyd's WBC title.

[erickdamac]

Well Off but on topic Floyd will fight Hatton December 4th, But what I find interesting is the fight will be promoted by Golden Boy! May 5th Mayweather vs. Oscar 2?

As for Oscar I would Favor him against almost all those opponets with the exception of spinks and Vernon Forrest.

Final thoughts, Mike Tyson wasn't in his prime but that didnt stop Lewis or any other HW from trying to fight him! Bottom line you beat the name you become the name, think about it you think Lewis would be an HBO anouncer if he would have never fought an old crazy tyson?

[mh2365]

Originally Posted by meade95

Good stuff - That's funny -

Ahh, while mh2365 and I disagree quite often.......it is all in good fun and always just about "boxing".....So nothing wrong with that.

Hell, these forums wouldn't be much fun if there wasn't the daily disagreement of opinion from a few of us on here.

I'm sure mh2365 and I would have a blast watcing fights together somenight - debating back and forth the whole time.......

Some of the things I say is just to see you burst a blood vessel But I do honestly think Holyfield's hype has people seeing him as better than he actually was. That was the comparison to Hatton I was making.

[mh2365]

Originally Posted by erickdamac

Well Off but on topic Floyd will fight Hatton December 4th, But what I find interesting is the fight will be promoted by Golden Boy! May 5th Mayweather vs. Oscar 2?

I thought it was interesting that Oscar has gone the Don King route. Supposively the only way he would fight Floyd is if GBP got a piece of him afterwards ... a move King made famous. Yet Oscar touts himself as the fighters promoter hmmm

[hamed]

Originally Posted by erickdamac

Well Off but on topic Floyd will fight Hatton December 4th, But what I find interesting is the fight will be promoted by Golden Boy! May 5th Mayweather vs. Oscar 2?

As for Oscar I would Favor him against almost all those opponets with the exception of spinks and Vernon Forrest.

Final thoughts, Mike Tyson wasn't in his prime but that didnt stop Lewis or any other HW from trying to fight him! Bottom line you beat the name you become the name, think about it you think Lewis would be an HBO anouncer if he would have never fought an old crazy tyson?

erick, it's funny you say that about Oscar against Spinks. Oscar was my IBF JMW champ last year but in July of 2006, I put him in vs. Spinks & Cory won a 15 MD to take the title.