Injuries, injuries, injuries...

[swishbish33]

I've been fairly successful in my fictional world over the 30 years I've had it running, winning a couple championships and making the playoffs more than half the time. I've never had a serious issue with injuries, and to be honest I've changed a few guys ratings back after an injury tore his ratings and potential down, as I do not agree with the way the system is set up (I believe potential should never go down, only actual ratings. Make the actual ratings go down and let the guy never re-reach his potential, so to speak). But these past two seasons have been ridiculous. Allow me to illustrate:

I, through the luck of talent increases, had a young quintet of pitchers that all had potential at 3 stars or above, including 2 guys with 4.5 star potential. I was careful with them, setting their pitch counts at 100 once they got to AAA, and promoting and demoting so as to keep their ERAs under 5 and avoid the dreaded talent loss. They all developed fine (I was lucky) and broke into the big leagues within two years of each other and had decent years, and one of them had a sub-3 ERA last season. I'm thinking, I'm set with my pitching for years to come. However, ALL 5 suffered 6+ month injuries that effectively HALVED their potential ratings and made them all literally half the pitcher they once were. All of them had these injuries between the ages of 25 and 28, in what should have been their prime. Two have come back and could no longer pitch effectively at the ML level. But it doesn't end there.

I had 3 OFs with potential at 3 stars or higher, two of which I developed as first round picks, and one I received as a trade piece when I sold off a first baseman (logjam at the position at the ML level). All three developed fine, and reached the majors. However, within the first three years of their being in the majors, all three suffered 6+ month injuries that tore their potential ratings in half, and they are no longer effective at the ML level. They were between 25 and 27. I also had a stud second baseman that I traded a great prospect for suffer a career-ending injury this past season.

I guess I'm just venting and also asking, is this normal? Just an incredible run of bad luck? How do you guys deal with mounting catastrophic injuries? Am I bringing them up too soon?

[injury log]

For sake of comparison, consider every pitcher drafted in the 1st round by the Pirates since 1998:

Sean Burnett- Tommy John in 2005
John Van Benschoten- torn labrum, another two shoulder surgeries [missed 2005 and most of 2006]
Bobby Bradley- Tommy John and shoulder surgery [missed most of 2002 and 2003]
Paul Maholm- missed most of 2004 after being hit in the face by a line drive
Brad Lincoln- Tommy John [2007]
Brian Bullington- shoulder surgery [2005]
Clint Johnston- elbow surgery, ulnar nerve problem, missed most of 2000-2001. Then switched to playing 1B for Toronto, tore his ACL, busted his ankle...

That's just the first rounders; they've also had major injuries to at least five of the seven HS pitchers drafted in rounds 2 through 10 from 2002-2005, according to:
http://www.baseballfans.net/pirates/...775&mode=print.

All of these pitchers were considered high-potential prospects at one point or another, and some have had their talent destroyed by injury. So while it certainly sounds like you've had bad luck, your situation isn't completely exceptional. A couple of other comments:

-when I've built up a dynastic team that makes the playoffs each year, major injuries present the only serious challenges to me as GM- suddenly I may have two holes in the rotation to fill, and this might present some interesting choices. Do I deal a top prospect to shore up the staff, overpay for a mediocre free agent, or fill the slots with unproven talent? So I welcome injuries, in a way, because they can make the game more interesting;

-PAP (pitcher abuse points) are used in the OOTP pitcher injury model, as Markus confirms here:

ootpdevelopments.com/board/showpost.php?p=1849730&postcount=10.

This does mean that controlling pitch counts should help to reduce pitcher injuries; PAP essentially measures the number of pitches thrown when a pitcher is already fatigued, and that's when injuries become more likely. That said, I've been intentionally 'abusing' pitchers in a recent league (going with 1-man rotations for a week at a stretch, or starting a pitcher with reliever endurance and letting him throw 160 pitches in a game) and have only seen one day-to-day injury as a result.

[1998 Yankees]

Originally Posted by swishbish33

I guess I'm just venting and also asking, is this normal? Just an incredible run of bad luck? How do you guys deal with mounting catastrophic injuries? Am I bringing them up too soon?

Unfortunately, I do think this is normal when injuries are set to "average." I have been happy with the "low" setting; enough injuries to make things interesting, but not so many that it lowers the enjoyment level.

[swishbish33]

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

Unfortunately, I do think this is normal when injuries are set to "average." I have been happy with the "low" setting; enough injuries to make things interesting, but not so many that it lowers the enjoyment level.

Perhaps this is the way to go. Right now I have my entire infield, 3 SPs, and 2 of my OFs on the DL with at least 3 week injuries, and mostly 4-6 month injuries. All three of my pitchers have season-ending injuries that occurred in April or May. I'll try out the low setting. Thank you kind sir.

And I agree injurylog. The injuries have made the game more of a challenge. I've had to overcome a lot of adversity in terms of replacing guys, and have had to deal some middling prospects just to get a decent replacement for the injured guys. Thanks for your help as well.

It seems that the amount of injuries in the minor leagues is acceptable. The only thing is the overwhelming majority of those injuries are of the 4-6 month variety. It seems that in real life, the majority of injuries are little things or a couple weeks. Just my two cents anyway...

[Curtis]

Originally Posted by swishbish33

The only thing is the overwhelming majority of those injuries are of the 4-6 month variety. It seems that in real life, the majority of injuries are little things or a couple weeks.

I think you're right about this. The overall number of injuries is about right, but the number of serious injuries is maybe double what it 'should' be. Probably this deserves a mention in the Suggestions section.

[Mattymo]

Originally Posted by swishbish33

Perhaps this is the way to go. Right now I have my entire infield, 3 SPs, and 2 of my OFs on the DL with at least 3 week injuries, and mostly 4-6 month injuries. All three of my pitchers have season-ending injuries that occurred in April or May. I'll try out the low setting. Thank you kind sir.

And I agree injurylog. The injuries have made the game more of a challenge. I've had to overcome a lot of adversity in terms of replacing guys, and have had to deal some middling prospects just to get a decent replacement for the injured guys. Thanks for your help as well.

It seems that the amount of injuries in the minor leagues is acceptable. The only thing is the overwhelming majority of those injuries are of the 4-6 month variety. It seems that in real life, the majority of injuries are little things or a couple weeks. Just my two cents anyway...

Wow that sucks!! How's your team doctor?

[1998 Yankees]

Originally Posted by Mattymo

Wow that sucks!! How's your team doctor?

That's a good point. The best ones are supposed to help prevent injuries and shorten recovery times, IIRC.

[swishbish33]

I don't use coaches or scouts.

[RonCo]

Originally Posted by Curtis

the number of serious injuries is maybe double what it 'should' be. Probably this deserves a mention in the Suggestions section.

I would be interested in any data you have on this. I've been tracking injuries in OOTP fairly extensively, and would like to have a real MLB baseline from which to judge things. I'm still working on it, but my take on the data I have right now is that overall pitchers are not getting hurt enough, and some hitters are getting hurt too seriously.

[1998 Yankees]

Originally Posted by RonCo

I would be interested in any data you have on this. I've been tracking injuries in OOTP fairly extensively, and would like to have a real MLB baseline from which to judge things. I'm still working on it, but my take on the data I have right now is that overall pitchers are not getting hurt enough, and some hitters are getting hurt too seriously.

Also whether having a doctor "in the house" makes any difference; that is, if you have no coaches (which also eliminates the doctor), do the rate and severity of injuries increase? This thread has been interesting, but now it's getting even more so.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by RonCo

I would be interested in any data you have on this. I've been tracking injuries in OOTP fairly extensively, and would like to have a real MLB baseline from which to judge things. I'm still working on it, but my take on the data I have right now is that overall pitchers are not getting hurt enough, and some hitters are getting hurt too seriously.

I also have this impression, though no hard real-life data to back it up. When I have some free time, I'm planning to compile some data on real life injuries, and I'd certainly be interested to hear about the results of your investigations.

[RonCo]

What I need is a listing of every lost-time injury that occured in the majors over at least a year's period. If I had that I could probably make some serious headway into assessing the behavior of the OOTP system.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by RonCo

What I need is a listing of every lost-time injury that occured in the majors over at least a year's period. If I had that I could probably make some serious headway into assessing the behavior of the OOTP system.

That's exactly the kind of data I'm hoping to compile, though I'm not sure how soon I'll find the time. When (if?) I collect it, I'll send it your way.

[RonCo]

Cool.

[Another Mike D]

I would love to see some more injury studies. I've been compiling some silly ones in my online league in our first month and a half. It seems like half the injuries to the pitchers are damaged meniscus injuries. Maybe we need to work on the mounds. Some of the injuries are very silly:

Toronto Blue Jays: A. Fernandez was injured on a defensive play. The Diagnosis: teeth knocked out. This is a day-to-day injury expected to last 3 days. (Yes, he caught the ball according to the game log and some how knocked out his teeth).

Los Angeles Dodgers: B. Bocanegra was injured while throwing the ball. The Diagnosis: damaged meniscus (knee). He's expected to miss about 4 weeks. (I guess he needs to learn some technical skills if he hurts his meniscus throwing the ball).

Chicago (N) Cubs: W. Square was injured on a defensive play. The Diagnosis: scratched cornea. He's expected to miss about 4 weeks. (Like Fernandez, he made the catch).

Montreal Expos: C. Gumbs was injured while running the bases. The Diagnosis: swollen eye. This is a day-to-day injury expected to last 5 days. (This one is a fave, as he somehow got a swollen eye from running the bases. I wonder if the IF spit in his eye while he wasn't looking).

Kansas City Royals: D. Hames was injured while doing work on his farm. The Diagnosis: undisclosed injury. He's expected to miss about 5 weeks. (Never mind that he was working on his farm during the season, at least--according to Paul--he was playing for KC and not NY or LA).

Texas Rangers: L. Starszewski was injured while running the bases. The Diagnosis: bruised wrist. This is a day-to-day injury expected to last 1-2 weeks. (Another odd one, I suppose he could've hurt it diving).

Las Vegas Gamblers: R. Turner was injured being hit by a pitch. The Diagnosis: scratched cornea. He's expected to miss about 1-2 weeks. (He was hit in the eye, but it must have been a knuckleballer as is only scratched his cornea).

New York (N) Mets: D. Crum was injured while running the bases. The Diagnosis: swollen eye. This is a day-to-day injury expected to last 6 days. (I have a feeling this is revenge from the Chad Gumbs injury above).

Toronto Blue Jays: D. Fegan was injured on a defensive play. The Diagnosis: swollen ear. This is a day-to-day injury expected to last 3 days. (Fegan becomes the second Blue Jay to suffer a curious injury defensively--check the grassy knoll).

Chicago (N) Cubs: K. Walker was injured on a defensive play. The Diagnosis: fractured nose. This is a day-to-day injury expected to last 2 weeks. (Checking the log, he made a catch in the 1st inning on a line drive and broke his nose, must have been a "nosedive" :wink wink I'll be back for my second set later!

Tampa Bay Devil Rays: H. Benero was injured on a defensive play. The Diagnosis: blurred vision. He's expected to miss about 2 weeks. (Another fly out, his catch was so illin' he couldn't see any more).

Chicago (N) Cubs: K. Walker was injured on a defensive play. The Diagnosis: fractured finger. He's expected to miss about 1-2 weeks. (Apparently, Kyle Walker, despite having great range and speed, can't seem to stay healthy catching fly balls. Get him an Olerud helmet).


So I'm guessing most of these catches are diving catches if guys are getting hurt, but I'd be interested in seeing some real data as to how many pitchers suffered from damaged meniscus injuries, and how many OF suffer facial injuries on (diving?) catches.

[Elendil]

I just think a lot of players are getting whacked with bats in the menisci by disgruntled fans, coaches, and opposing players. And taking line drives to the face.

"No, not again! Not the meniscus! Ahhhh!"

[Curtis]

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

Also whether having a doctor "in the house" makes any difference; that is, if you have no coaches (which also eliminates the doctor), do the rate and severity of injuries increase? This thread has been interesting, but now it's getting even more so.

If you're playing without coaches, you're actually playing with average coaches, so presumably average doctors.

[1998 Yankees]

Originally Posted by Curtis

If you're playing without coaches, you're actually playing with average coaches, so presumably average doctors.

That makes sense.

[bailey]

According to the baseball injury website, 348 players ended up on the DL last year, that's 11.6 players per team. They also claim 84 players underperformed due to "hidden" injuries. It looks like it is normal to always have at least 1 player on the DL.

[blackrussian]

Originally Posted by Another Mike D

So I'm guessing most of these catches are diving catches if guys are getting hurt, but I'd be interested in seeing some real data as to how many pitchers suffered from damaged meniscus injuries, and how many OF suffer facial injuries on (diving?) catches.

i checked the injury.txt file and swollen ear has a collision and HBP/fight booleans. maybe the game interprets diving injuries as collisions? in that case, id change these to only having HPB/fight bool's to avoid silly injuries resulting from diving for balls.