Cheating??

jprywell · 07-09-2007, 02:02 PM

Hi everyone:

Here's an interesting question from a Newbie playing his first historical league:

I'm managing the 1903 Detroit Tigers and have already pulled off a few spring trades to better my mediocre club. Here's my question:

When considering trades, should I be consulting my baseball historical guides to see how a player actually performed that year and for the several years in the future? Or is that not a good guide to replicate the OOTP universe? And is that also considered an unwanted advantage over other managers (or, cheating)?

Case in point: I'm thinking of trading my high-priced rightfielder Billy Lush to Cleveland for equally pricey RF Elmer Flick. Looking at the historical abstracts, it seems that Flick will have a near-HOF career, while Lush will flame out in a year or two.

However, in my league, the two are close to being on equal footing (with Flick still ranked higher but Lush with a lot of potential and a similar salary). I'm the gm, and the manager does not favor this trade. Of course, Cleveland also wants one of my good relievers in a trade, so that clouds his decision.

What's your thinking of using actual history to judge whether to make a trade or not? When should that be consulted?

jprywell

ctorg · 07-09-2007, 02:05 PM

If you are playing with recalculation after each year turned on, you will have a distinct advantage over the AI. I've noticed that the AI does not know to do this and can be easily fleeced, since it thinks a guy will develop according to his talents, which may be off.

However, if you are not playing with recalculation, you will get no real advantage from looking at that stuff, and it might even trick you into thinking a guy will be different from how he turns out to be in the game (without recalculation, players develop according to the game's fictional algoritms).

Comedian2004 · 07-09-2007, 02:14 PM

You have to have in-house rules. I try not to check a players historical record when considering a trade. Note the word 'try'.

When I am playing for a team, my goal is not really to have the best team out there, run away with the division and the WS each year, by any way, shape or form, it is to have fun. If I employ tactics like that, it makes the game not fun for me anymore. The main purpose of the game for me, is to have fun. I can sometimes have fun while sitting in last place with the best pitching staff in the league, but a bunch of hitters that can't score. Note the word 'sometimes' there.

Do whatever you want with your league for whatever purpose, it is your game.

rasnell · 07-09-2007, 02:17 PM

Depends on how quickly you rise to domination. Toughen your own personal house rules if you rise to the top too quickly and easily.

Also change the draft and trade settings to tougher settings if you dominate too quickly.

Even better, after a few years, take over as the manager of the worst team in the league and see how long it takes you to rebuild them into contenders.

jprywell · 07-09-2007, 03:09 PM

Thanks for the sage advice. I think I'll take that and ease back a bit on trades -- I've already fleeced the Cardinals out of Mordecai Brown, and I dont want to get any crazier. Otherwise, sooner or later, I won't have roster I even recognize as the '03 Tigers -- It'll just be some of the best players from other teams.

I think I'm going to ignore my historical guides in the future and maybe turn off recalc. For the latter, I can see pros and cons either way -- there's definitely a stronger element of surprise with it turned off, and that might make the game more interesting.

jprywell

Kelric · 07-09-2007, 04:52 PM

BTW, you can view a player's real historical stats in the game if you imported them.

DougWyatt · 07-09-2007, 05:06 PM

I run a solo hist. league (started in '01- now in '82), and in order not to be too dominate I've had to enforce house rules. It was REAL easy (too easy=not fun to me) without them.

My rules ...

1. No trades (exceptions : in years ending in 0 or 5 & only for a draft pick - I trade for the #1 pick in the upcoming draft; also I can trade for financial reasons - see below).

2. Proj. budget room cannot be negative (so I can never use my "cash"). If I enter a season with a negative PBR - I must trade my highest paid player to the team with the most money for a 3rd round pick, and rince repeat - until I am under.

3. Must change teams (switch to the team with last seasons worst record) approximately every 15 years. (approx - 1915, 1930, 1945, 1962, 1977, 1993) - the staggered dates after 1945 are because I like to play with the expansion teams.

I have still found success, but not the boring overwhelming type of success (I'm 6948-5593 for .554 with 37 playoff appearances, 21 championships in 82 years).

Doing this .. It's challenging, but fun. I've still been able to build dynasties (which stay strong a few years after I'm gone); and seen some great players on my teams (picked up via draft or Free Agency). IE - I was once able to hold an OF of Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, and Stan Musial.

BaseballMan · 07-09-2007, 06:11 PM

I think its just soemthing that you will have to deceide based on how you do on say some tests seasons. If you dont feel it gives you advantage then i dont see a problem until it does. But then you can always stop doing it. Its good to have house rules but they need to fit your league's universe in a way that it makes it fun for you.

jprywell · 07-11-2007, 02:20 PM

I like your structure, Doug, but wonder if it's too rigid. As one of the posters said, I'll have to try this a few different ways, kick a few tires, float a few trial balloons, and see what works best.

Two questions for you, Doug, both coming from a Newbie to the game:

-- Do you play your solo historical league with recalc on or off? Does that make a big difference in your league?

-- How do you play seasons and get through so many of them? Do you sim actual games or just autoplay seasons and work on the gm functions only?

Just curious,

jprywell

DougWyatt · 07-11-2007, 05:15 PM

Response in Quote.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jprywell

I like your structure, Doug, but wonder if it's too rigid. As one of the posters said, I'll have to try this a few different ways, kick a few tires, float a few trial balloons, and see what works best.

Yeah, that's the best. It seems everyone plays the game a little differently 'round here .
Two questions for you, Doug, both coming from a Newbie to the game:

-- Do you play your solo historical league with recalc on or off? Does that make a big difference in your league?

Yeah, I do play with recalc (3 year). I also play with talent change randomness set at 0. My results have been VERY close to real life. I mean, obviously the players end up on different teams, but they perform very close to their real life counterparts.

I also use THIS POST (thanks Curtis) and update my market sizes every 10 years (just cuz I like the Yankees having tons of money, etc.)

I think the recalc is the main reason I use rigid rules for trading and money. It is quite a big advantage knowing how each player is going to perform. Especially if you use the "real life stats" tab on the player card.

-- How do you play seasons and get through so many of them? Do you sim actual games or just autoplay seasons and work on the gm functions only?

I pretty much only GM in my hist. league. And I fast sim the season in big chunks. My season goes like this :

-Start.
-Set lineups/rotations/depth charts.
-Sim to mid year (the june draft).
-Draft .
-Sim to reg season end.
-Sim playoff games 1 day at a time (I play out games which could be the deciding game of the series).
-End Season.
-Reveiw season (stats, history, etc.)
-Review team finances/tackle Free Agents.
-Sim to season start (no spring training).

Ongoing :
-Keep eye on finances, resign upcoming free agents if needed.
-I have all sim stops turned off, except injuries (which is set at 2 months). (I make sure my depth chart is filled with a backup at every position in case of short term injuries.)
-Make adjustments for long term injuries (2 months+) that stop my sim.

A year usually takes me an hour or so.

Just curious,

jprywell

jar2574 · 07-12-2007, 01:18 PM

I think that next I'm going to try a historical league starting in 1901, without importing stats.

It's too tough for me not to look at historical stats with that button right there. And that button makes it too easy to dominate via the draft, trades, etc...

Without that button I'll have to actively "cheat" the AI (by looking up the stats on baseballreference.com or by examining the ESPN encyclopedia). And I think I'll be able to avoid that.

That will make it more fun for me.

darthpb · 07-13-2007, 11:07 AM

I'm with ctorg here. I turned off recal as I want to see how my "alternative" universe plays out; I'm not trying to "mimic" history, just see it tweaked a little.

darthpb · 07-13-2007, 11:11 AM

and I also agree with comedian...I don't want to completely dominate, at least not by taking advantage of the game. I just played out a full season in 1978 using the Red Sox. There have been trades made and some free agent signings but the "core" is still set in reality. By the way, I did add wild cards and I lost in the first round of the playoffs to the f****** Yanks but now that I am over that I realize it was an incredibly fun season.

rocknfire7 · 07-22-2007, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jprywell

Hi everyone:

Here's an interesting question from a Newbie playing his first historical league:

I'm managing the 1903 Detroit Tigers and have already pulled off a few spring trades to better my mediocre club. Here's my question:

When considering trades, should I be consulting my baseball historical guides to see how a player actually performed that year and for the several years in the future? Or is that not a good guide to replicate the OOTP universe? And is that also considered an unwanted advantage over other managers (or, cheating)?

Case in point: I'm thinking of trading my high-priced rightfielder Billy Lush to Cleveland for equally pricey RF Elmer Flick. Looking at the historical abstracts, it seems that Flick will have a near-HOF career, while Lush will flame out in a year or two.

However, in my league, the two are close to being on equal footing (with Flick still ranked higher but Lush with a lot of potential and a similar salary). I'm the gm, and the manager does not favor this trade. Of course, Cleveland also wants one of my good relievers in a trade, so that clouds his decision.

What's your thinking of using actual history to judge whether to make a trade or not? When should that be consulted?

jprywell

Here's something I've always liked to do:
Play with real-life transactions. If you have a young Lou Brock on your team trade him for Ernie Broglio mid-way through 1964. Lets say Broglio is pitching well for the last place Phils, Brock is the 4th OF on the Giants who are in 3rd place. He competed with Aaron, Callison, and McCovey. ( This is the exact scenario I did. ) Brock will go on to be a Phillie great while Broglio will make the Giants look stupid in a few years when they struggle to find a good leadoff hitter. It works really good if players are not drafted on their original teams. If the Babe is a young Pirate pitcher/slugger sell him to (team X) for cash. You can draw a team out of a hat or come up with a system like I did which will tell you which team buys the Babe. This really works good with the recalc ON. Otherwise some of the player trades won't look realistic at all.

Radsmats · 08-07-2007, 05:29 PM

Or you can try an online league. I played the solo game for years and years and versions of OOTP and had NO IDEA how much more fun, more realistic and harder it would be to convince real human beings to take your collection of 35-year-old overpaid stiffs for a future Hall of Famer and a draft pick.

07-09-2007, 02:05 PM	#2
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	If you are playing with recalculation after each year turned on, you will have a distinct advantage over the AI. I've noticed that the AI does not know to do this and can be easily fleeced, since it thinks a guy will develop according to his talents, which may be off. However, if you are not playing with recalculation, you will get no real advantage from looking at that stuff, and it might even trick you into thinking a guy will be different from how he turns out to be in the game (without recalculation, players develop according to the game's fictional algoritms). __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

07-09-2007, 02:14 PM	#3
Comedian2004 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: In a house in Saint Cloud, Florida. Posts: 7,085	You have to have in-house rules. I try not to check a players historical record when considering a trade. Note the word 'try'. When I am playing for a team, my goal is not really to have the best team out there, run away with the division and the WS each year, by any way, shape or form, it is to have fun. If I employ tactics like that, it makes the game not fun for me anymore. The main purpose of the game for me, is to have fun. I can sometimes have fun while sitting in last place with the best pitching staff in the league, but a bunch of hitters that can't score. Note the word 'sometimes' there. Do whatever you want with your league for whatever purpose, it is your game. __________________ Like BLUES? Visit www.smokestacklightnin.com, you will LOVE it! New show every Monday!! New Blues HOF![/COLOR][/FONT]

07-09-2007, 02:17 PM	#4
rasnell Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Frankfort, Kentucky Posts: 3,746	Depends on how quickly you rise to domination. Toughen your own personal house rules if you rise to the top too quickly and easily. Also change the draft and trade settings to tougher settings if you dominate too quickly. Even better, after a few years, take over as the manager of the worst team in the league and see how long it takes you to rebuild them into contenders. __________________ Charlie Root won more games for the Cubs than any pitcher (201), yet was remembered for one pitch to Babe Ruth. Find out more about the 1929 World Series in my book, "Root for the Cubs: Charlie Root and the 1929 Chicago Cubs." See the web site at www.rootforthecubs.com. The book is at http://www.amazon.com/Root-Cubs-Char...t+for+the+cubs. Beta tester, OOTP 2007-2023 and iOOTP 2011-2014.

07-09-2007, 03:09 PM	#5
jprywell Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 22	Cheating? Thanks for the sage advice. I think I'll take that and ease back a bit on trades -- I've already fleeced the Cardinals out of Mordecai Brown, and I dont want to get any crazier. Otherwise, sooner or later, I won't have roster I even recognize as the '03 Tigers -- It'll just be some of the best players from other teams. I think I'm going to ignore my historical guides in the future and maybe turn off recalc. For the latter, I can see pros and cons either way -- there's definitely a stronger element of surprise with it turned off, and that might make the game more interesting. jprywell

07-11-2007, 02:20 PM	#9
jprywell Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 22	Cheating?? I like your structure, Doug, but wonder if it's too rigid. As one of the posters said, I'll have to try this a few different ways, kick a few tires, float a few trial balloons, and see what works best. Two questions for you, Doug, both coming from a Newbie to the game: -- Do you play your solo historical league with recalc on or off? Does that make a big difference in your league? -- How do you play seasons and get through so many of them? Do you sim actual games or just autoplay seasons and work on the gm functions only? Just curious, jprywell

07-09-2007, 02:02 PM	#1
jprywell Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 22	Cheating?? Hi everyone: Here's an interesting question from a Newbie playing his first historical league: I'm managing the 1903 Detroit Tigers and have already pulled off a few spring trades to better my mediocre club. Here's my question: When considering trades, should I be consulting my baseball historical guides to see how a player actually performed that year and for the several years in the future? Or is that not a good guide to replicate the OOTP universe? And is that also considered an unwanted advantage over other managers (or, cheating)? Case in point: I'm thinking of trading my high-priced rightfielder Billy Lush to Cleveland for equally pricey RF Elmer Flick. Looking at the historical abstracts, it seems that Flick will have a near-HOF career, while Lush will flame out in a year or two. However, in my league, the two are close to being on equal footing (with Flick still ranked higher but Lush with a lot of potential and a similar salary). I'm the gm, and the manager does not favor this trade. Of course, Cleveland also wants one of my good relievers in a trade, so that clouds his decision. What's your thinking of using actual history to judge whether to make a trade or not? When should that be consulted? jprywell

07-09-2007, 04:52 PM	#6
Kelric Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Greater Boston Area Posts: 3,992	BTW, you can view a player's real historical stats in the game if you imported them.

07-09-2007, 05:06 PM	#7
DougWyatt All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,117	I run a solo hist. league (started in '01- now in '82), and in order not to be too dominate I've had to enforce house rules. It was REAL easy (too easy=not fun to me) without them. My rules ... 1. No trades (exceptions : in years ending in 0 or 5 & only for a draft pick - I trade for the #1 pick in the upcoming draft; also I can trade for financial reasons - see below). 2. Proj. budget room cannot be negative (so I can never use my "cash"). If I enter a season with a negative PBR - I must trade my highest paid player to the team with the most money for a 3rd round pick, and rince repeat - until I am under. 3. Must change teams (switch to the team with last seasons worst record) approximately every 15 years. (approx - 1915, 1930, 1945, 1962, 1977, 1993) - the staggered dates after 1945 are because I like to play with the expansion teams. I have still found success, but not the boring overwhelming type of success (I'm 6948-5593 for .554 with 37 playoff appearances, 21 championships in 82 years). Doing this .. It's challenging, but fun. I've still been able to build dynasties (which stay strong a few years after I'm gone); and seen some great players on my teams (picked up via draft or Free Agency). IE - I was once able to hold an OF of Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, and Stan Musial.

07-09-2007, 06:11 PM	#8
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,647	I think its just soemthing that you will have to deceide based on how you do on say some tests seasons. If you dont feel it gives you advantage then i dont see a problem until it does. But then you can always stop doing it. Its good to have house rules but they need to fit your league's universe in a way that it makes it fun for you.

07-12-2007, 01:18 PM	#11
jar2574 Major Leagues Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 405	I think that next I'm going to try a historical league starting in 1901, without importing stats. It's too tough for me not to look at historical stats with that button right there. And that button makes it too easy to dominate via the draft, trades, etc... Without that button I'll have to actively "cheat" the AI (by looking up the stats on baseballreference.com or by examining the ESPN encyclopedia). And I think I'll be able to avoid that. That will make it more fun for me.

07-13-2007, 11:07 AM	#12
darthpb All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Queens, NY a mile from Shea Posts: 690	I'm with ctorg here. I turned off recal as I want to see how my "alternative" universe plays out; I'm not trying to "mimic" history, just see it tweaked a little.

07-13-2007, 11:11 AM	#13
darthpb All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Queens, NY a mile from Shea Posts: 690	and I also agree with comedian...I don't want to completely dominate, at least not by taking advantage of the game. I just played out a full season in 1978 using the Red Sox. There have been trades made and some free agent signings but the "core" is still set in reality. By the way, I did add wild cards and I lost in the first round of the playoffs to the f****** Yanks but now that I am over that I realize it was an incredibly fun season.

08-07-2007, 05:29 PM	#15
Radsmats Minors (Double A) Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Wellville Posts: 184	option Or you can try an online league. I played the solo game for years and years and versions of OOTP and had NO IDEA how much more fun, more realistic and harder it would be to convince real human beings to take your collection of 35-year-old overpaid stiffs for a future Hall of Famer and a draft pick.