How many earned runs here..

Go Tribe · 06-06-2007, 05:47 PM

From today's twins-angels game

Twins score 2 in the 4th, both earned.

Here's what happens in the 5th....

Redmond singles
Kubel safe on ss error, Redmond goes to 2nd
Punto homers, all 3 score
Bartlett Fouls out to 1b
Castillo singles
Cirillo grounds out, Castillo to 2nd
Castillo to 3rd on passed ball
Cuddyear walks
Morneau singles, Castillo scores, Cuddyear to 3rd
Hunter flies out

4 runs, 4 hits, 1 error

Ok my thinking is that Cirrilo's ground out would have ended the inning had Kubel not reached on the error, making Castillo's run unearned. Kubel's run should also be unearned since he reached on error. So two of the runs are unearned, giving Lackey 6 runs allowed, 4 earned. The current boxscore shows 5 earned.

And yes this is a fantasy baseball question and yes I do have lackey

But does my logic follow the rules of baseball scoring?

mikev · 06-06-2007, 06:26 PM

Cirillo's out would have been out #2. For scoring, you can't assume a double play would have happened on Kubel's error.

Russ · 06-06-2007, 06:34 PM

You can assume one out though. Reconstruct the inning and it looks like one earned run to me.

pfreek11 · 06-06-2007, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikev

Cirillo's out would have been out #2. For scoring, you can't assume a double play would have happened on Kubel's error.

You don't have to assume a double play, do you?

Kubel would've been out #1
Bartlett would be out #2
Cirillo would be out #3

pfreek11 · 06-06-2007, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

You can assume one out though. Reconstruct the inning and it looks like one earned run to me.

Looks like 2 earned runs in the inning...Punto and Redmond.

Russ · 06-06-2007, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfreek11

Looks like 2 earned runs in the inning...Punto and Redmond.

Right. My mistake.

mikev · 06-06-2007, 06:46 PM

Redmond singles
Kubel safe on ss error, Redmond goes to 2nd
Punto homers, all 3 score

2 Earned Runs so far, Redmond and Punto.

Bartlett Fouls out to 1b
Castillo singles
Cirillo grounds out, Castillo to 2nd
Castillo to 3rd on passed ball
Cuddyear walks
Morneau singles, Castillo scores, Cuddyear to 3rd

3 Earned runs

Hunter flies out

jbergey22 · 06-06-2007, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikev

Redmond singles
Kubel safe on ss error, Redmond goes to 2nd
Punto homers, all 3 score

2 Earned Runs so far, Redmond and Punto.

Bartlett Fouls out to 1b
Castillo singles
Cirillo grounds out, Castillo to 2nd
Castillo to 3rd on passed ball
Cuddyear walks
Morneau singles, Castillo scores, Cuddyear to 3rd

3 Earned runs

Hunter flies out

Castillo is an unearned run because Cirillo should have been the final out of an inning. IN essence Morneau never should have been up this inning to drive in the 3rd run. 2 ER his inning, 2 on the HR and that is it.

pfreek11 · 06-06-2007, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Castillo is an unearned run because Cirillo should have been the final out of an inning. IN essence Morneau never should have been up this inning to drive in the 3rd run. 2 ER his inning, 2 on the HR and that is it.

Exactly. As I've always understood it, any run scored after what should have been the third out will be considered unearned. You reconstruct the inning as if the error was not made and go from there.

jbergey22 · 06-06-2007, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfreek11

Exactly. As I've always understood it, any run scored after what should have been the third out will be considered unearned. You reconstruct the inning as if the error was not made and go from there.

Yeah I am not sure why the box scores are saying 5 ER, I am thinking there is some confusion on the Kubel ball and it will get changed later.

Sdpm100 · 06-07-2007, 09:03 AM

The box score now has four earned runs for Lackey.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/wrap.jsp?ymd...=.jsp&c_id=mlb

MattH3322 · 06-07-2007, 10:02 AM

This is the way I understand how it works

Redmond singles
Kubel safe on ss error, Redmond goes to 2nd (should have been 1 out)
Punto homers, all 3 score (3 earned runs because should have been 1 out)
Bartlett Fouls out to 1b (1 out, should have been 2)
Castillo singles
Cirillo grounds out, Castillo to 2nd (2 outs, should have been 3, any runner who scores after Cirillo will be a un-earned run)
Castillo to 3rd on passed ball
Cuddyear walks
Morneau singles, Castillo scores, Cuddyear to 3rd (4 earned runs)
Hunter flies out

So I go with 4

MattH3322 · 06-07-2007, 10:08 AM

An earned run is a run for which a pitcher is held accountable. In determining earned runs, the official scorer shall reconstruct the inning without the errors (which exclude catcher's interference) and passed balls, giving the benefit of the doubt always to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by runners had there been errorless play. For the purpose of determining earned runs, an intentional base on balls, regardless of the circumstances, shall be construed in exactly the same manner as any other base on balls.

Go Tribe · 06-07-2007, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattH3322

This is the way I understand how it works

Redmond singles
Kubel safe on ss error, Redmond goes to 2nd (should have been 1 out)
Punto homers, all 3 score (3 earned runs because should have been 1 out)
Bartlett Fouls out to 1b (1 out, should have been 2)
Castillo singles
Cirillo grounds out, Castillo to 2nd (2 outs, should have been 3, any runner who scores after Cirillo will be a un-earned run)
Castillo to 3rd on passed ball
Cuddyear walks
Morneau singles, Castillo scores, Cuddyear to 3rd (4 earned runs)
Hunter flies out

So I go with 4

kubel should have been out - if you reconstruct the inning without the error, punto's homer would have been a two run shot

Eumel · 06-07-2007, 10:16 AM

Here's the inning reconstructed without errors:

Redmond singles
Kubel out at first.
Punto homers, all 2 score
Bartlett Fouls out to 1b
Castillo singles
Cirillo grounds out

Therefore: 2ER, I think.

Lackey earned two more in the 4th, so the boxscore is correct.

magnet · 06-07-2007, 10:50 AM

The bigger story is the fact that Punto hit a go-ahead HR.

mikev · 06-07-2007, 10:53 AM

I think the actual issue here is whether or not an error on a third out will affect earned runs in the entire innning, or if it just affects the next batter.

If you look at the inning after the error and home run, it's this:

Foul out
Single
Grounder (runner to second)
passed ball (runner to third)
Walk
Run scoring single.

That's an earned run.

mikev · 06-07-2007, 11:00 AM

Okay now I think it might be two, and here's why:

From das Rules:

10.16 Earned Runs And Runs Allowed

An earned run is a run for which a pitcher is held accountable. In determining earned runs, the official scorer shall reconstruct the inning without the errors (which exclude catcher's interference) and passed balls, giving the benefit of the doubt always to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by runners had there been errorless play. For the purpose of determining earned runs, an intentional base on balls, regardless of the circumstances, shall be construed in exactly the same manner as any other base on balls.

Without the passed ball, Castillo's still on second when the single gets hit and you can't assume a runner scores from second on a single.

mikev · 06-07-2007, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikev

Okay now I think it might be two, and here's why:

From das Rules:

10.16 Earned Runs And Runs Allowed

An earned run is a run for which a pitcher is held accountable. In determining earned runs, the official scorer shall reconstruct the inning without the errors (which exclude catcher's interference) and passed balls, giving the benefit of the doubt always to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by runners had there been errorless play. For the purpose of determining earned runs, an intentional base on balls, regardless of the circumstances, shall be construed in exactly the same manner as any other base on balls.

Without the passed ball, Castillo's still on second when the single gets hit and you can't assume a runner scores from second on a single.

Actually, this is wrong. Morneau went to third on the single, so Castillo would have scored either way. It's an earned run.

Bobbert · 06-07-2007, 01:00 PM

And the boxscore shows it corectly now so it's 2 earned runs and 2 un-earned.

06-06-2007, 06:46 PM	#7
mikev Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 4,014	Redmond singles Kubel safe on ss error, Redmond goes to 2nd Punto homers, all 3 score 2 Earned Runs so far, Redmond and Punto. Bartlett Fouls out to 1b Castillo singles Cirillo grounds out, Castillo to 2nd Castillo to 3rd on passed ball Cuddyear walks Morneau singles, Castillo scores, Cuddyear to 3rd 3 Earned runs Hunter flies out __________________ Global Unified Baseball Association - Vice Commish and Oakland Oaks GM

06-07-2007, 10:02 AM	#12
MattH3322 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Chicago area Posts: 752	This is the way I understand how it works Redmond singles Kubel safe on ss error, Redmond goes to 2nd (should have been 1 out) Punto homers, all 3 score (3 earned runs because should have been 1 out) Bartlett Fouls out to 1b (1 out, should have been 2) Castillo singles Cirillo grounds out, Castillo to 2nd (2 outs, should have been 3, any runner who scores after Cirillo will be a un-earned run) Castillo to 3rd on passed ball Cuddyear walks Morneau singles, Castillo scores, Cuddyear to 3rd (4 earned runs) Hunter flies out So I go with 4 __________________ People say us Irish have a bad reputation for drinking and fighting. It makes me so mad that I want to get drunk and punch someone.

06-07-2007, 10:08 AM	#13
MattH3322 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Chicago area Posts: 752	An earned run is a run for which a pitcher is held accountable. In determining earned runs, the official scorer shall reconstruct the inning without the errors (which exclude catcher's interference) and passed balls, giving the benefit of the doubt always to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by runners had there been errorless play. For the purpose of determining earned runs, an intentional base on balls, regardless of the circumstances, shall be construed in exactly the same manner as any other base on balls. __________________ People say us Irish have a bad reputation for drinking and fighting. It makes me so mad that I want to get drunk and punch someone.

06-07-2007, 10:53 AM	#17
mikev Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 4,014	I think the actual issue here is whether or not an error on a third out will affect earned runs in the entire innning, or if it just affects the next batter. If you look at the inning after the error and home run, it's this: Foul out Single Grounder (runner to second) passed ball (runner to third) Walk Run scoring single. That's an earned run. __________________ Global Unified Baseball Association - Vice Commish and Oakland Oaks GM

06-07-2007, 11:00 AM	#18
mikev Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 4,014	Okay now I think it might be two, and here's why: From das Rules: 10.16 Earned Runs And Runs Allowed An earned run is a run for which a pitcher is held accountable. In determining earned runs, the official scorer shall reconstruct the inning without the errors (which exclude catcher's interference) and passed balls, giving the benefit of the doubt always to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by runners had there been errorless play. For the purpose of determining earned runs, an intentional base on balls, regardless of the circumstances, shall be construed in exactly the same manner as any other base on balls. Without the passed ball, Castillo's still on second when the single gets hit and you can't assume a runner scores from second on a single. __________________ Global Unified Baseball Association - Vice Commish and Oakland Oaks GM

06-06-2007, 05:47 PM	#1
Go Tribe All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,534 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	How many earned runs here.. From today's twins-angels game Twins score 2 in the 4th, both earned. Here's what happens in the 5th.... Redmond singles Kubel safe on ss error, Redmond goes to 2nd Punto homers, all 3 score Bartlett Fouls out to 1b Castillo singles Cirillo grounds out, Castillo to 2nd Castillo to 3rd on passed ball Cuddyear walks Morneau singles, Castillo scores, Cuddyear to 3rd Hunter flies out 4 runs, 4 hits, 1 error Ok my thinking is that Cirrilo's ground out would have ended the inning had Kubel not reached on the error, making Castillo's run unearned. Kubel's run should also be unearned since he reached on error. So two of the runs are unearned, giving Lackey 6 runs allowed, 4 earned. The current boxscore shows 5 earned. And yes this is a fantasy baseball question and yes I do have lackey But does my logic follow the rules of baseball scoring?

06-06-2007, 06:26 PM	#2
mikev Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 4,014	Cirillo's out would have been out #2. For scoring, you can't assume a double play would have happened on Kubel's error. __________________ Global Unified Baseball Association - Vice Commish and Oakland Oaks GM

06-06-2007, 06:34 PM	#3
Russ All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Essex HON! Posts: 1,923 Blog Entries: 1 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	You can assume one out though. Reconstruct the inning and it looks like one earned run to me. __________________ If you don't love Russ, you don't love America. This post brought to you by Carl's Jr.

06-07-2007, 09:03 AM	#11
Sdpm100 Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2005 Location: Cheltenham, England Posts: 7,644	The box score now has four earned runs for Lackey. http://mlb.mlb.com/news/wrap.jsp?ymd...=.jsp&c_id=mlb

06-07-2007, 10:16 AM	#15
Eumel Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 499	Here's the inning reconstructed without errors: Redmond singles Kubel out at first. Punto homers, all 2 score Bartlett Fouls out to 1b Castillo singles Cirillo grounds out Therefore: 2ER, I think. Lackey earned two more in the 4th, so the boxscore is correct.

06-07-2007, 10:50 AM	#16
magnet Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,029	The bigger story is the fact that Punto hit a go-ahead HR.

06-07-2007, 01:00 PM	#20
Bobbert Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Linköping, Sweden Posts: 222	And the boxscore shows it corectly now so it's 2 earned runs and 2 un-earned. __________________