Earned Run? Somebody 2X Check Me.

endgame · 04-12-2007, 11:56 PM

Before I post this in Tech Support, can a couple of you look this over to verify that this is not an earned run? I can't find a way to convince myself that it is. Thanks in advance.

JML · 04-13-2007, 12:00 AM

Well, a runner on second is considered to be in scoring position, so the assumption would be that the single to the outfield scored him, no?

Edit- check that. I didn't see that the runner was actually on third. That is definitely an earned run.

endgame · 04-13-2007, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JML

Well, a runner on second is considered to be in scoring position, so the assumption would be that the single to the outfield scored him, no?

Edit- check that. I didn't see that the runner was actually on third. That is definitely an earned run.

That's sort of my dilemma. If that's the case, would this be one of those situations in which it's the "official scorer's" judgment, or is this considered a hard and fast interpretation? I'm just not sure. Thank you for that quick response, though. You may be right.

Edit, too:

Gotcha. Missed that myself, even during gameplay.

JML · 04-13-2007, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by endgame

That's sort of my dilemma. If that's the case, would this be one of those situations in which it's the "official scorer's" judgment, or is this considered a hard and fast interpretation? I'm just not sure. Thank you for that quick response, though. You may be right.

I don't think there is any judgment to be made. A single is going to score a runner on third no matter what. If the guy advancing to third on the single scored due to the error, that would be unearned.

Jermanfu · 04-13-2007, 01:43 AM

I wouldn't think it would be an earned run. The error was made with 2 outs. And the run scored after the error was made. It's my understanding that any run scoring after a 2 out error would be considered unearned.

Solack · 04-13-2007, 02:17 AM

Actually, the error was made after the single was scored. You're seeing all of the scoring in one line and then the results of the play on the other lines.

Perhaps a better way to have put it:

Runner on third.
Single to the OF, runner on Third Scores (earned run).
OF makes an error, allowing the baserunner on 1st (who hit the single) to advance to second.

It's just in the way that the game shows the play that can be confusing.

Oxydizer · 04-13-2007, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by endgame

Before I post this in Tech Support, can a couple of you look this over to verify that this is not an earned run? I can't find a way to convince myself that it is. Thanks in advance.

Yes, the run is earned, Lopez scored on the single, the error occurs after the runner scores. I am taking the PbP literaly here. If Sanders were to score later, that run would be unearned because he reached base on an error.

Herd Fan · 04-13-2007, 07:48 AM

It's earned. The error occurred after the scoring event.

Solonor · 04-13-2007, 09:26 AM

It doesn't even matter if the runner were on 1st. As long as he scored on the single before the error was made, it's an earned run. Since the runner was on 3rd, there's no question it's earned...unless the runner just stood there until the outfielder made the error after the batter got his hit...

Kiko1313 · 04-13-2007, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oxydizer

Yes, the run is earned, Lopez scored on the single, the error occurs after the runner scores. I am taking the PbP literaly here. If Sanders were to score later, that run would be unearned because he reached base on an error.

If Sanders scored later, it's still possible that it would have been earned. He did not reach base on an error, he reached base on a single then reached 3rd on the error. If the next batter hits a home run he would have scored from 1st anyways had there been no error so it's still earned.

There is a difference between reaching on an error and advancing extra bases on an error.

In the original post, the run is clearly earned.

Oxydizer · 04-13-2007, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiko1313

If Sanders scored later, it's still possible that it would have been earned. He did not reach base on an error, he reached base on a single then reached 3rd on the error. If the next batter hits a home run he would have scored from 1st anyways had there been no error so it's still earned.

There is a difference between reaching on an error and advancing extra bases on an error.

In the original post, the run is clearly earned.

I respectfully disagree, I am not so sure that Sanders run, if he scored would be earned. I have seen it go both ways, depending on who is the official scorer. The fact that he reached base on a single is one thing, but when he advances into scoring position via an error is something different. This makes for a good discussion

Bobbert · 04-13-2007, 12:10 PM

witout the erroor Sanders would be in second abut is now in third, so if he scores on anythinying but a single i's clearly an earned run. If he however scores on a single I guess it comes down to if he would've been able to score on that single from second or not. (all this assumes that the next batter gets out, else his run would be earned any way)

Is there a good rule for this or is it up to the scorer to decide if he would've scored from second on a single or not? (in this case it's easy as their is a runner on second, but if second would've been empty)

cbbl · 04-13-2007, 12:18 PM

EDIT: Ignore this. I missed the fact that Nichols hit a single. See above.

Before we can answer this correctly we need to know whether Nichols hit a fly ball or a grounder.

If he hit a fly ball, the run is unearned. Here's why:

Ojeda flies out. 1 out.

Kelly doubles. Runner on 2nd (Kelly).

Lopez walks. Runners on 1st (Lopez) and 2nd (Kelly).

Kelly gets caught stealing. 2 outs. Runner on 1st (Lopez).

Sanders hits a single. Lopez advances to third on throw. Runners on 1st (Sanders) and 3rd (Lopez).

Because 2nd base is open, Sanders is a force out, Lopez is not (this is important).

Nichols hits a fly ball to RF, which the fielder drops (error). If caught, third out. Because of the error, Lopez scores. The run is UNEARNED.

*******

However, if Nichols hits a ground ball into RF, which the right fielder bobbles, it become arbitrary. The scorer's decision to call Lopez an earned run or not depends on whether the fielding team would have thrown out either Nichols or Sanders had the error not occurred.

Two facts:
1. A run does not score when the third out is a force out, regardless of whether the force is applied before or after the runner touches home.

2. On a non-force out (tag out), a run scores ONLY if the runner touches home before the tag is applied.

In the situation above, it is not clear whether the tag on second (Sanders) would have occurred prior to Lopez touching home plate. From the play-by-play and the fact that OOTP did not credit an earned run, it is apparently the "scorer's" decision that the tag, in fact, would have occurred prior to Lopez touching home plate (thus causing the third out), had the error not occurred.

In all probability, unlikely, but possible. I'd say the odds in this case probably favor your argument -- that Lopez would have reached home before the tag was applied, thus causing the earned run to score just before the third out was made.

Welcome to the arbitrary world of scoring.

If its the first scenario, however (fly ball), the situation is clear -- unearned run.

Regardless, I don't see this as a bug. The official scoring in this situation is clearly judgemental, and as such, sometimes judgement is fallible.

cbbl

BigCity · 04-13-2007, 12:19 PM

Lopez is Earned (on single). Nichols advance to 2nd base is due to the error - not the safe hit.

Had Nichols or anyone later scored, they would be unearned.

Bobbert · 04-13-2007, 12:22 PM

but would it been scored as a single if it would've been an error on a fly ball?

endgame · 04-13-2007, 12:24 PM

Thanks for all your comments. Interesting to hear the varying viewpoints, perhaps more so given the team with the question are the Grays.

cbbl, I appreciate your take on this with the added detail. For what it's worth, IIRC, the pbp described the outfielder as overunning the ball and it got past him. In my mind's eye, this was a looper into right field and he simply misplayed it letting it get by.

tysok · 04-13-2007, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobbert

witout the erroor Sanders would be in second abut is now in third, so if he scores on anythinying but a single i's clearly an earned run. If he however scores on a single I guess it comes down to if he would've been able to score on that single from second or not. (all this assumes that the next batter gets out, else his run would be earned any way)

Is there a good rule for this or is it up to the scorer to decide if he would've scored from second on a single or not? (in this case it's easy as their is a runner on second, but if second would've been empty)

You're supposed to put the inning together as if there were no error and see what would happen. Since the error only allowed extra bases (not the guy to be on base) it wouldn't count as a supposed third out (which means runs following might still be earned).
There should have been men at first and second without the error, instead they're at second and third (maybe it was first and third). If the next batter (A) hits a single it would be scorers judgement if the run would have scored. If he decides it would have scored on the single then it's earned automatically. If he decides it wouldn't have scored, it could still be an earned run if the NEXT batter (B) hits a single. If batter A hit a double, triple, or home run that run would be earned... and since Nichols wasn't actually on base because of the error his run could be earned if he came around etc.

Kiko1313 · 04-13-2007, 01:16 PM

For those of you that haven't seen the exact rules for earned runs, check out section 10.18 of the Official Rules:

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info..._scorer_10.jsp

Similarly to what tysok said, this is taken directly from the first paragraph in that section:

Quote:

In determining earned runs, the inning should be reconstructed without the errors (which include catcher’s interference) and passed balls, and the benefit of the doubt should always be given to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by errorless play.

udbacker58 · 04-13-2007, 02:04 PM

I have a sort of OT question. If an error were to occur with two outs, allowing a hitter to get on base, would any run scored in that inning be considered unearned? I don't know the ins and outs of the rule book and am just curious.

Jermanfu · 04-13-2007, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solack

Actually, the error was made after the single was scored. You're seeing all of the scoring in one line and then the results of the play on the other lines.

Perhaps a better way to have put it:

Runner on third.
Single to the OF, runner on Third Scores (earned run).
OF makes an error, allowing the baserunner on 1st (who hit the single) to advance to second.

It's just in the way that the game shows the play that can be confusing.

Ahh I see it now. My mistake

04-12-2007, 11:56 PM	#1
endgame Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 16,842	Earned Run? Somebody 2X Check Me. Before I post this in Tech Support, can a couple of you look this over to verify that this is not an earned run? I can't find a way to convince myself that it is. Thanks in advance. Attached Images __________________ "Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett _____________________________________________

04-13-2007, 12:00 AM	#2
JML Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The act or process of locating. Posts: 2,154	Well, a runner on second is considered to be in scoring position, so the assumption would be that the single to the outfield scored him, no? Edit- check that. I didn't see that the runner was actually on third. That is definitely an earned run. Last edited by JML; 04-13-2007 at 12:02 AM.

04-13-2007, 01:43 AM	#5
Jermanfu All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Baton Rouge, LA. Posts: 899	I wouldn't think it would be an earned run. The error was made with 2 outs. And the run scored after the error was made. It's my understanding that any run scoring after a 2 out error would be considered unearned. __________________ "I took the two most expensive asprins in history." - Wally Pipp on his decision to sit out a game with a headache which let Lou Gehrig into the lineup for the first time. http://s10.photobucket.com/albums/a121/Jermanfu/

04-13-2007, 02:17 AM	#6
Solack All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Nashville Posts: 656	Actually, the error was made after the single was scored. You're seeing all of the scoring in one line and then the results of the play on the other lines. Perhaps a better way to have put it: Runner on third. Single to the OF, runner on Third Scores (earned run). OF makes an error, allowing the baserunner on 1st (who hit the single) to advance to second. It's just in the way that the game shows the play that can be confusing. __________________ Roger aka Khalin Solack

04-13-2007, 09:26 AM	#9
Solonor Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Maine Posts: 4,459	It doesn't even matter if the runner were on 1st. As long as he scored on the single before the error was made, it's an earned run. Since the runner was on 3rd, there's no question it's earned...unless the runner just stood there until the outfielder made the error after the batter got his hit... __________________ Solonor's Groovy Computer Baseball League - Making baseball a hobbit since 2003! "Beings will come, Frodo. The one constant through all the years has been baseball. Middle Earth has rolled by like an army of Mumakil. It has been erased like a slate, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Frodo. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again. Oh... beings will come Frodo. Beings will most definitely come." - Gladden Field of Dreams

04-13-2007, 07:48 AM	#8
Herd Fan Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 129	It's earned. The error occurred after the scoring event.

04-13-2007, 12:10 PM	#12
Bobbert Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Linköping, Sweden Posts: 222	witout the erroor Sanders would be in second abut is now in third, so if he scores on anythinying but a single i's clearly an earned run. If he however scores on a single I guess it comes down to if he would've been able to score on that single from second or not. (all this assumes that the next batter gets out, else his run would be earned any way) Is there a good rule for this or is it up to the scorer to decide if he would've scored from second on a single or not? (in this case it's easy as their is a runner on second, but if second would've been empty) __________________

04-13-2007, 12:18 PM	#13
cbbl All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,179	*EDIT: Ignore this. I missed the fact that Nichols hit a single. See above.* Before we can answer this correctly we need to know whether Nichols hit a fly ball or a grounder. If he hit a fly ball, the run is unearned. Here's why: Ojeda flies out. 1 out. Kelly doubles. Runner on 2nd (Kelly). Lopez walks. Runners on 1st (Lopez) and 2nd (Kelly). Kelly gets caught stealing. 2 outs. Runner on 1st (Lopez). Sanders hits a single. Lopez advances to third on throw. Runners on 1st (Sanders) and 3rd (Lopez). Because 2nd base is open, Sanders is a force out, Lopez is not (this is important). Nichols hits a fly ball to RF, which the fielder drops (error). If caught, third out. Because of the error, Lopez scores. The run is UNEARNED. ******* However, if Nichols hits a ground ball into RF, which the right fielder bobbles, it become arbitrary. The scorer's decision to call Lopez an earned run or not depends on whether the fielding team would have thrown out either Nichols or Sanders had the error not occurred. Two facts: 1. A run does not score when the third out is a force out, regardless of whether the force is applied before or after the runner touches home. 2. On a non-force out (tag out), a run scores ONLY if the runner touches home before the tag is applied. In the situation above, it is not clear whether the tag on second (Sanders) would have occurred prior to Lopez touching home plate. From the play-by-play and the fact that OOTP did not credit an earned run, it is apparently the "scorer's" decision that the tag, in fact, would have occurred prior to Lopez touching home plate (thus causing the third out), had the error not occurred. In all probability, unlikely, but possible. I'd say the odds in this case probably favor your argument -- that Lopez would have reached home before the tag was applied, thus causing the earned run to score just before the third out was made. Welcome to the arbitrary world of scoring. If its the first scenario, however (fly ball), the situation is clear -- unearned run. Regardless, I don't see this as a bug. The official scoring in this situation is clearly judgemental, and as such, sometimes judgement is fallible. cbbl Last edited by cbbl; 04-13-2007 at 12:24 PM.

04-13-2007, 12:19 PM	#14
BigCity All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: South Shore, Great Lakes Posts: 1,386	Lopez is Earned (on single). Nichols advance to 2nd base is due to the error - not the safe hit. Had Nichols or anyone later scored, they would be unearned. Last edited by BigCity; 04-13-2007 at 12:21 PM.

04-13-2007, 12:22 PM	#15
Bobbert Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Linköping, Sweden Posts: 222	but would it been scored as a single if it would've been an error on a fly ball? __________________

04-13-2007, 12:24 PM	#16
endgame Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 16,842	Thanks for all your comments. Interesting to hear the varying viewpoints, perhaps more so given the team with the question are the Grays. cbbl, I appreciate your take on this with the added detail. For what it's worth, IIRC, the pbp described the outfielder as overunning the ball and it got past him. In my mind's eye, this was a looper into right field and he simply misplayed it letting it get by. __________________ "Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett _____________________________________________

04-13-2007, 02:04 PM	#19
udbacker58 All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,140	I have a sort of OT question. If an error were to occur with two outs, allowing a hitter to get on base, would any run scored in that inning be considered unearned? I don't know the ins and outs of the rule book and am just curious.