How many clicks does it take to get from...

[f.montoya]

This is not the opening line to a joke or a riddle, but rather an open invitation for you to help find areas where the game's interface fails to be user friendly, all in the hope of getting some improvements in the next patch and setting the tone for 2008. The idea is to locate the areas that require more clicks to navigate from something to another thing...especially if these areas are often visited to and from eachother.

I will start it off...

From a player's game logs screen, after looking at one result and attempting to browse all the results, 4 clicks...

1. Backspace
2. Batting Stats
3. Game Logs
4. Results

Should be:
1. Backspace
2. Results

[f.montoya]

C'mon all of you that continue to complain about about the interface. Help make it better!!

[Ksyrup]

I don't think this is directly responsive to your request, but we've been having a discussion about this over at FOFC, so let me just cut-and-paste some of my most recent comments about the overall problem I see with the interface. Some of it has to do with multiple clicks; but mostly, I think it has to do with the entire framework of how the UI was developed and for what purpose.


Having to click multiple times and scroll to get the information that the quick-sim screen provides is a big part of it. Markus apparently already nixed the idea of making that screen accessible other than for quick-simming, but I don't understand it at all. Taking us to the scores/schedule screen after the games have simmed is useless. Not only do I have to click a few times to get to what I want to look at, but it takes me out of the rhythm of the sim - if that quick-sim page would just stay up after the simming ends, I'd be able to quickly view standings and leaders, click on the teams/players I want to view from there, or just start simming again with the drop-down menu auto-sim feature. No need to go anywhere else but that page, unless I need to make changes to my team, which would be accessible directly from that screen.

And trying to make roster/FA moves is a pain in the ass - I'm constantly having to exit out of the screen I'm in and basically start over from the initial roster/FA screen because there's no easy way that I can see to get from the players I'm viewing back to the screen I started from. And then there are the screens where, for some reason, there is no ability to scroll through players, so I have to go to each one individually and click back out to get to the next one (minor leaguers on the transaction screen are this way). And when a player is injured, initially I thought it was pretty cool that the player pops up automatically, until I realized that there is no way to easily move from the player to the transaction screen without a few clicks. Am I missing something here? I'd rather have the transaction screen be the pop-up, so I can quickly make a roster move, and if I want to see a player or two, I have that option. But telling me the guy is injured for 4 weeks and then giving me his screen is redundant. I don't need to see him, I just need to put him on the DL and replace him. So why make me click a few more times to be able to make that happen?

...

I'm finding that the interface is becoming familiar, and that's part of what is bringing me to the realization that I don't like it! For instance, I just learned to start using the right click when on a player's HTML page to quickly get to his SION page. That's great. But why are there 2 pages to begin with? It seems like the entire UI system was designed to fit both SP and MP, but in the end, all it did was create a mess. What they should have done is created one set of screens for the in-game playing experience, and allowed those screens to print out reports that look like the HTML pages. Instead, we get both in the game and it's frustrating to have to go to both to get the totality of information and ability to make decisions that is separate from each.

If I go to a stat or league/manager/team home screen and click on the player, I get his HTML page. What if I want to see his real life stats? Gotta go to his SION page. If I want to edit him or make roster changes - that's not part of the HTML screen, that's either the player's SION page or the SION transactions screen. Why have a separate SION standings screen, but make the easiest league standings pages to get to all HTML pages? Why are there two separate links to league history - one that take you to HTML history pages, and the other from the SION league drop-down menu that give you both HTML pages and SION HoF/retired/current player links? There are a bunch of duplicative, redundant screens in this game, and the only purpose for them that I can see is to accomodate MP leagues. And that's fine, but like I said above, those should just be reports, not integrated screens within the game itself.


I bolded what I think to be the over-arching problem with the way the game is setup. It has created a basic "flow" problem for me and, I assume, others. THe game just doesn't flow well, and I feel like I'm needlessly being taken to screens I don't want to be at to get to information that would be easier to get to if it was all consolidated in a single, cohesive UI. The multiple clicking and scrolling issues just compound the problem.

[briantheiceberg]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

But why are there 2 pages to begin with? It seems like the entire UI system was designed to fit both SP and MP, but in the end, all it did was create a mess.

"! "! and I had NO idea about the right clicking - thanks for that tidbit - but you are RIGHT ON about the waste of time the HTML pages are in the game. All that is needed is the GAME pages and not the HTML.

[f.montoya]

Keep goin' guys!! Notes are being taken!!

[Ksyrup]

They are only a waste of time if you're playing the game. When I just sim history and want to look back through it, I find them to be worthwhile. But making them the primary screens through which to access our universe during the in-game play is confusing, duplicative, and frustrating.

I mean, let's just take a real-world look at this...let's say I just quick-simmed a month and want to view my team's performance. I would go to my manager home page, where I have a quick link to my team's stats. Unforunately, those are separately broken out in hitting/pitching/fielding links, and I can't just change the view from the HTML page that gets brought up, so I have to "back out" to see each one separately. Problem #1. But the bigger problem - and this is why I say it interrupts the flow/rhythm of the game - is that once I see the stats and identify a problem...say, my SS is hitting .120 and I want to bench him...I can't just click on him to get to an easy way to replace him, I've got to either back out again to the manager screen, or use the drop-down to get to my home team screen, then find my way from all of those HTML pages into the SION page that will allow me to make that change. Why? Why is the principal and easiest-to-find way to view stats the HTML pages, then I have to find my way to SION pages to get into the "meat" of the game in order to actually play it? Conceptually, it makes no sense.

[DCG12]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

They are only a waste of time if you're playing the game. When I just sim history and want to look back through it, I find them to be worthwhile. But making them the primary screens through which to access our universe during the in-game play is confusing, duplicative, and frustrating.

I mean, let's just take a real-world look at this...let's say I just quick-simmed a month and want to view my team's performance. I would go to my manager home page, where I have a quick link to my team's stats. Unforunately, those are separately broken out in hitting/pitching/fielding links, and I can't just change the view from the HTML page that gets brought up, so I have to "back out" to see each one separately. Problem #1. But the bigger problem - and this is why I say it interrupts the flow/rhythm of the game - is that once I see the stats and identify a problem...say, my SS is hitting .120 and I want to bench him...I can't just click on him to get to an easy way to replace him, I've got to either back out again to the manager screen, or use the drop-down to get to my home team screen, then find my way from all of those HTML pages into the SION page that will allow me to make that change. Why? Why is the principal and easiest-to-find way to view stats the HTML pages, then I have to find my way to SION pages to get into the "meat" of the game in order to actually play it? Conceptually, it makes no sense.

Ksyrup,

Please don't take this wrong but I think you and a lot of people who complain about the UI are making it harder than it is. For example you talk about having to "back out" of a screen to go to another. Why? In the example above where you go to the teams stats page (I'll assume batting stats) you can go straight to pitching stats, fielding stats plus 15 other reports by using the black dropdown in the upper right that says "select report". No need to back track.

You want to drop that .120 hitting ss the tab for "lineups and depth charts" is right there on the html page.

The constant harping about the UI is really starting to grate on me. While I agree that it is a lot more complex than 6.5 I find it a breeze to move around after just a short time spent with it.

I guess as with anything YMMV but I still think with a little looking around things are easier than you make them.

P.S. I didn't even mention the ability to set up bookmarks if all else fails.

[briantheiceberg]

Originally Posted by DCG12

YMMV

????

[DCG12]

Originally Posted by briantheiceberg

????

Your Mileage May Vary

[BigCity]

Originally Posted by DCG12

Ksyrup,

Please don't take this wrong but I think you and a lot of people who complain about the UI are making it harder than it is. For example you talk about having to "back out" of a screen to go to another. Why? In the example above where you go to the teams stats page (I'll assume batting stats) you can go straight to pitching stats, fielding stats plus 15 other reports by using the black dropdown in the upper right that says "select report". No need to back track.

You want to drop that .120 hitting ss the tab for "lineups and depth charts" is right there on the html page.

The constant harping about the UI is really starting to grate on me. While I agree that it is a lot more complex than 6.5 I find it a breeze to move around after just a short time spent with it.

I guess as with anything YMMV but I still think with a little looking around things are easier than you make them.

P.S. I didn't even mention the ability to set up bookmarks if all else fails.

Generally, I agree with the above. there are multiple ways to do just about anything - it's a matter of getting familiar enough with it to know those "paths" automatically.

I'm not taking issue on improvements, but I simply "adjusted" my thinking rather than sit and think about the way I would like to have it. I also know that the way I would like to have it is probably going to cause someone else a problem - which is really what Markus is trying to deal with here.

[pappyzan]

ok, here it goes...

1. i don't like how the game will not keep your sorts or filters whenever you go back to the screen you set those sorts and filters up for. example: on the available free agents screen, i filter it so that only 2nd basemen are shown. then i decide to go to the trade player screen, then back (using the back button within the game) to the available free agents screen. sometimes it will display only 2nd basemen (as it should), but sometimes it will display ALL players. no real rhyme or reason to it from what i can tell.

same goes for other screens: if i set the Career Batting Stats to display a view other than the default within a player's profile, i'd like the game to display that view the next time i look at a player's Career Batting Stats, not the default view.

2. the back and forward buttons don't always take you to the correct screens. sometimes clicking on the back/forward buttons will take you nowhere, sometimes they will take you 2 or 3 screens back/forward, sometimes they work correctly. no rhyme or reason here either.

3. i'd like a Save Game Now button, instead of going to the main dropdown, then choosing save (if this is currently in the game and i missed it, then please disregard).

4. bookmarks are nice, but i'd like the ability to build my own shortcut bar across the bottom of the page (although, the right side of the page would be better), instead of being stuck with the ones that are there now. this shortcut bar is a great addition btw, but i'd just like the ability to customize it to my liking.

5. why are the team options combined into an Options & Ballpark page??? why not have a separate options page to itself, no matter how few team options there are to fiddle with?

6. dump all sion profile pages unless the user specifies to have these generated.

btw, this is a great game, these are just a few simple suggestions to make it a little better the next time around. keep up the good work!

[CaLíKrAzY]

What about roster screens?? I find myself constantly lost when I'm scrolling through players using those arrows only to find out when I right-click, it doesn't return me to the main roster screen.

So, when I've scrolled though like 10 player cards quickly it should take me back out to the roster screen when I right-click not back a player card or 2 or 3 unless-I-use the arrows to go back.

Ok so that would have to be a constant thoughout the screens like -- lineups, pitching & rosters for it to really have an impact for easy viewing.

Does that make sense?

What do you think?

And thanks for taking and listening to suggestions.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by DCG12

Ksyrup,

Please don't take this wrong but I think you and a lot of people who complain about the UI are making it harder than it is. For example you talk about having to "back out" of a screen to go to another. Why? In the example above where you go to the teams stats page (I'll assume batting stats) you can go straight to pitching stats, fielding stats plus 15 other reports by using the black dropdown in the upper right that says "select report". No need to back track.

You want to drop that .120 hitting ss the tab for "lineups and depth charts" is right there on the html page.

The constant harping about the UI is really starting to grate on me. While I agree that it is a lot more complex than 6.5 I find it a breeze to move around after just a short time spent with it.

I guess as with anything YMMV but I still think with a little looking around things are easier than you make them.

P.S. I didn't even mention the ability to set up bookmarks if all else fails.

I have spent hours with this game, and bottom line, it's just not intuitive to me. There are too many ways to access the same (or multiple views of the same) information all over the game. The idea is that the UI should first and foremost provide the most streamlined access to information possible - not 4 separate ways to access the same thing, because then, like I did, I end up stuck using the most visible of those (the separate links on the manager or team page) to view stats, when there is apparently an easier way to get to that. Then why confuse me with the other links?

I have refrained from commenting on the "solution" of bookmarking, because I find that to be ridiculous. This game already has too many menus/buttons/pages - there is no way in hell I'm adding another layer of options onto the overload of options the game's UI already presents to me. Not going to do it. I would have hoped the way the game gets me from one screen to another, from one set of information to another, would act as all of the "bookmarking" I need. Instead, I've been given an unwieldy mess and told to, in effect, create my own UI to sort through everything that's thrown on the screen.

The funny thing is, I like the game and want to be able to play it. I'm just not having fun with it right now, and it's not because I just picked the game up and expect to be an expert at it within 5 minutes. There's value in making at least part of the game accessible like that, but I think Markus is going for an entirely different animal than the BBM-type game, which is fine. That's what I want, too. The problem is that the UI doesn't aid us one bit in making sense of the excessive amount of information that is available (and that we want). And that's what a good UI should do - not provide 4 or 5 alternate ways of getting to the same thing. There's a difference between making something accessible and giving so many options that it creates an overload and makes the game no fun to play. I see this game falling far to the side of the latter.

I don't know...you seem to think that more options are better, and I see that as a serious detriment to the game's playability.

[biggamejrs]

Originally Posted by CaLíKrAzY

What about roster screens?? I find myself constantly lost when I'm scrolling through players using those arrows only to find out when I right-click, it doesn't return me to the main roster screen.

So, when I've scrolled though like 10 player cards quickly it should take me back out to the roster screen when I right-click not back a player card or 2 or 3 unless-I-use the arrows to go back.

Ok so that would have to be a constant thoughout the screens like -- lineups, pitching & rosters for it to really have an impact for easy viewing.

Does that make sense?

What do you think?

And thanks for taking and listening to suggestions.

this is a good point here.

[DCG12]

Ksyrup

Don't get me wrong, sometimes I have wondered why there are multiple ways to get there from here. My point was that if you can find the shortest route the frustration factor will diminish.

I know I am having much more fun than I did with 2006 and I stuck with that game for the whole year just to keep my league going.

I don't want to "tell" you that you have to enjoy the set-up,I guess I just wish that some people weren't so quick to trash the game because of the UI.
Underneath the exterior is a great game. I hope you can find the fun in it.

[Ksyrup]

I'm seeing a great game, I'm just not enjoying playing it, if that makes any sense. From the 40K foot view, I'm amazed by the way the historical stuff has worked out. But so far, the only real fun I'm having with the game is in essentially simming out history and looking at it. I'm not actually playing the game. And then when I try to, I get bogged down in the slop and lose patience/interest in being lost in the UI.

As I was responding to a couple of posts over the FOFC and describing my problem, I may have hit upon why this is so counter-intuitive for me. I'm so used to a windowed environment that I'm constantly looking for a way to "go back" to where I just came from, which is part of my frustration with the player-to-transaction/roster/FA screens, because I feel like if I just came from there, they are still "open" and I need to get back there. Conceptually, that's the way I'm used to working with computer programs.

So maybe if I think through that process and try to consciously avoid thinking of OOTP in that way, it will help. Still, though, I have real issues with the combined HTML/SION pages, as well as the needless multiple options for getting to the same place, that I don't think will ever go away. I just think that's bad design, pure and simple.

I think the reason I'm not seeing the obvious short cuts for stuff is that there are too many other ways to get there. And I'm the kind of person that, once I figure out how to get where I need to go, I'm not using any other way to get there. If I learn a less efficient way to get there, that's all I know. So I appreciate you guys pointing out what's obvious to you, so that I can make it my preferred way, too. I just wish I could then ditch the rest of the clutter on the screen so I'm not railroaded by less efficient alternative ways of getting to the same place.

[rdomico]

I really don't have any big issues with the UI. I am sure it could be better. I am just happy we are discussing the "number of clicks" instead of the big problems we had with the 2006 version.

[Radsmats]

Dropping a relief pitcher into the pitcher slot automatically puts him in the 9 hole, even if you have done a double switch and your MVP candidate and usual starting shortstop has come off the bench into the nine hole and you don't have any shortstops left and it's the 14th inning of a one-run game that will decide the pennant.
In a directly related matter, an "undo" button on lineup card changes (before going back to the game screen) would be most appreciated. <
R

[battists]

Originally Posted by Radsmats

Dropping a relief pitcher into the pitcher slot automatically puts him in the 9 hole, even if you have done a double switch and your MVP candidate and usual starting shortstop has come off the bench into the nine hole and you don't have any shortstops left and it's the 14th inning of a one-run game that will decide the pennant.
In a directly related matter, an "undo" button on lineup card changes (before going back to the game screen) would be most appreciated. <
R

This one should be posted in tech support!

[DCG12]

Originally Posted by Radsmats

Dropping a relief pitcher into the pitcher slot automatically puts him in the 9 hole, even if you have done a double switch and your MVP candidate and usual starting shortstop has come off the bench into the nine hole and you don't have any shortstops left and it's the 14th inning of a one-run game that will decide the pennant.
In a directly related matter, an "undo" button on lineup card changes (before going back to the game screen) would be most appreciated. <
R

As I'm sure you are now aware to do a double switch the pitcher has to get dropped into the spot in the order you want and then the position drop down used to assign the pitching position. This is the way it has to work or how else would the game know who or where to switch out.

I do agree though that an "oh s**t" button would be nice

Edit: I didn't read that right the first time. i.e. that you had done the double switch earlier in the game. Battists is right that should be fixed so the pitcher replaces thepitcher in the line up.