Incentive Points and their Redemptions

Deft · 02-27-2003, 01:27 PM

In the ATHL, we have an incentive points system for participation but as late have been trying to think of a way to encourage it without damaging the integrity of the league. Does anyone have any ideas or other leagues that has a similar system?

darkhorse · 02-27-2003, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Deft
In the ATHL, we have an incentive points system for participation but as late have been trying to think of a way to encourage it without damaging the integrity of the league.

Run a top-notch league, never seen anything foster more participation than this method. Bribing your GM's to participate never seemed like a good idea to me or monkeying with the league file to add the bonuses that a participation scheme generates.

Old Man · 02-27-2003, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by darkhorse
Run a top-notch league, never seen anything foster more participation than this method. Bribing your GM's to participate never seemed like a good idea to me or monkeying with the league file to add the bonuses that a participation scheme generates.

I agree. Make a good league and they will come.

spleen1015 · 02-27-2003, 01:45 PM

I had one of these systems in my league and it didn't help increase participation in anyway.

sporr · 02-27-2003, 01:52 PM

We have one set up in the Maelstrom. Though it probably doesn't make an impact on most people, it at least rewards those who put in extra effort in their participation. Ours is subtle enough that it doesn't make any huge impact to the league, but allows teams scouting bonuses, team training bonuses, or money for stadium modification.

UKSubs · 02-27-2003, 07:04 PM

I've always been opposed to incentive points. I feel that people should participate because they enjoy the league and contribute beyond that when want to. The best incentive is running a good league and replacing owners when they don't participate without reason.

I also think that when I see an incentive points scheme, that there has generally been a problem in the past with owners not participating. And if I think that, as a potential owner, I am less likely to want to join.

sgstauder · 02-27-2003, 07:24 PM

I've never liked incentive programs.

It's great for active owners, but how about the regular, solid guys who submit a lineup every week but don't feel the need to write articles or do extra work -- they just like playing the game.

Why penalize them for inaction or attempt to scold them into action?

If it's a good league that is stable, people will become more involved and take an active role in it.

Recte44 · 02-27-2003, 07:40 PM

We have Participation Points in both the ORB and the MBBA and it really adds another dimension, IMO. I wouldn't call it bribing. MLB franchises have to do marketing, don't they? Same thing here, and we reward teams accordingly.

UKSubs · 02-27-2003, 09:13 PM

But doesn't that double reward "good" owners who are more likely to be active than your lunchpail owners who always submit a lineup, since the "good" owners are more likely to be always working a trade or looking for that last guy in the FA pool that might be marginally useful in three months. (I admit to such behavior myself.) Giving them more resources creates bigger gulfs between the haves and the have nots. And since you aren't likely to lose owners from the frequent participaters as often, your new owners will be disadvantaged by these systems.

Besides, the primary thing one can contribute to a league beside a lineup are articles about the league. If people feel compelled to write articles, you end up twenty articles that read like Joe Smith hit .471 last week, instead of a couple articles about the Quiz or interesting trade analysis. I know that I would rather read a few good articles than a score of so-so articles.

Even worse, there are a number of people who don't feel like they are good writers or don't enjoy writing, so participation systems leave them feeling uncomfortable in an expected league activity and they end up being looked down upon. I think leagues should try to foster environments that are equally fun to as many types of owners as possible and I personally feel that participation point systems don't do that.

adventureran · 02-27-2003, 10:54 PM

I am very happy to see this thread. I, too, felt that I would rather have owners participate because they wanted to, not because they were rewarded.

However, a couple of owners in the MBL (Maverick Baseball League) suggested starting an incentive program. So I looked at a few leagues to see what kinds of programs they had.

I started writing something up and finally decided to shelve it for our upcoming season and will revisit it later. The biggest problem I see is the fairness issue others brought up here. Some folks just don't have as much time on their hands as others.

Having said that, GBC Chairman does bring up a good point, that owning a franchise does include marketing and advertising that franchise.

I appreciate the feedback here as I'm sure this will be brought up again in the MBL.

Thanks all!

satchel · 02-28-2003, 12:06 AM

The ATHL has a good system, and it rewards owners for doing routine things, so that all the good owners benefit, not just those who do extraordinary things.

To me, the best use of a system like this is just having a way to see who is participating in the league and who isn’t. Without some public track, league participation is vague to everyone except the Commissioner. Owers deserve to know who is turning lineups and who isn’t.

sporr · 02-28-2003, 08:26 AM

In our system, our biggest reward is given to those who submit lineups on a regular basis.

adventureran · 02-28-2003, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sporr
In our system, our biggest reward is given to those who submit lineups on a regular basis.

I considered this as part of the reward/incentive program I was writing, however, isn't that just part of participating in an online league? I mean, if you don't submit lineups regularly, your team will most likely suffer.

sporr · 02-28-2003, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by adventureran
I considered this as part of the reward/incentive program I was writing, however, isn't that just part of participating in an online league? I mean, if you don't submit lineups regularly, your team will most likely suffer.

You would think so, but we've had 2 cases where a team that failed to submit lineups for lengthy periods of time not only cruised into 1st place but remained there.

Recte44 · 02-28-2003, 12:48 PM

And it's not just articles in which you gain reward.
I'll post our current rules regarding Participation Points here (which are very basic at this time), with a revision forthcoming Wednesday that will incorporate franchise moves and stadium creation into the program.

An owner may be relieved of his team if four sims go by without any communication to the league. You are also expected to post (at the minimum) at least one team update on the forum per week. A point system is available as a bonus for owner involvement (see below for details). Having and using AOL Instant Messenger is STRONGLY encouraged.
Owners are expected to submit Team Exports for every sim, or send the Commissioner an email indicating there will be no changes. As a courtesy, owners are requested to respond to emails from other owners (i.e. trade requests, etc.) in a timely fashion. Owners are given an opportunity to participate in most league-wide rule changes and participation in these polls is in the owner's best interest.
Owner IncentivesIn order to reward owner participation, a bonus system is available. Owners can accumulate points based on criteria described below. These points can be redeemed for the improvement of an owner's franchise (see below). Points will carry over from season to season.
Owner Action Point Value
Write News Article About Team 2
Write News Article About League 4

News and Team Articles may be submitted only once per sim. Other points may be awarded at Commissioner's discretion. All awarded points are to be posted publicly on the web site. Points may be redeemed at any point during the regular season or off-season, but not during the playoffs.Points may be redeemed for the following:
Reward Points Necessary
Increase Fan Loyalty 1 value (Max. Very Good)) 40
Increase Market Size 1 value (Max. of Big) 50
Add $1,000,000 to cash available 60
Build new stadium 100You may also “advertise” for your franchise by posting messages on the Forums. The more you post, the more you advertise for your franchise. Therefore, the more stars you earn, the more merchandising revenue you will earn for the upcoming off-season.25 posts- 2 stars = No additional revenue75 posts- 3 stars = No additional revenue125 posts- 4 stars = $500,000 additional merchandising revenue175 posts- 5 stars = $1,000,000 additional merchandising revenue300 posts- 6 stars = $1,500,000 additional merchandising revenue500 posts- 7 stars = $2,000,000 additional merchandising revenuePlus everyone likes to see a lot of stars by their name. Governing Board members are not eligible for this promotion.

fhomess · 02-28-2003, 01:36 PM

In the JOBL our incentives are based largely on submitting lineups, and the only thing you really get is some cash. The main point of it, though, is to have a structured format for deciding whether or not owners are active enough (and this is pretty minimal) to stay in the league. People who don't get a lot of incentive points, aren't really hurt either, though, because the incentives are pretty small (max is ~$3 million cash).

Michael Xavier · 03-01-2003, 05:41 PM

I don't know if other owners do this, but I have a mindset on whether I will participate and to what degree. What I mean is, I am an original member of So'49 and the ABA, and I feel that I obligated to participate more in those leagues than in ones where I come in. I do not know why that is my mindset, but it exists.

Don't get me wrong, I send in my lineups in all my leagues, but as to whether I post on the message board alot or write articles, often hinges on how I view my place within the league. Perhaps this could be the case with other owners, not all, but a few.

Red Blow · 03-02-2003, 10:20 AM

I posted on this issue a little while back.

http://www.400softwarestudios.com/bo...threadid=17662

We don't have a point system in the NOBL, but owners that post one team story per game month are allowed to host a free promotion day the next month. The promotion is called Autograph Day, is free, and adds 100% to attendance (guarantees a sellout). We probably average 90% or more each month using the free day.

Point systems are good on paper, but I do wonder if they do not increase the void between already active owners and less-active ones. If what you are using works, though, run with it.

02-27-2003, 01:27 PM	#1
Deft All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,113	Incentive Points and their Redemptions In the ATHL, we have an incentive points system for participation but as late have been trying to think of a way to encourage it without damaging the integrity of the league. Does anyone have any ideas or other leagues that has a similar system? __________________ ATHL Louisville Jockeys (2001-present) 2002, 2007, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2020 World Champions Uniform Template 1.2

02-27-2003, 07:04 PM	#6
UKSubs Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 272	I've always been opposed to incentive points. I feel that people should participate because they enjoy the league and contribute beyond that when want to. The best incentive is running a good league and replacing owners when they don't participate without reason. I also think that when I see an incentive points scheme, that there has generally been a problem in the past with owners not participating. And if I think that, as a potential owner, I am less likely to want to join. __________________ Counter Culture Baseball Commissioner/Houston Astros RANZBA Adelaide Crows

02-27-2003, 07:24 PM	#7
sgstauder Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Western Mass Posts: 91	I've never liked incentive programs. It's great for active owners, but how about the regular, solid guys who submit a lineup every week but don't feel the need to write articles or do extra work -- they just like playing the game. Why penalize them for inaction or attempt to scold them into action? If it's a good league that is stable, people will become more involved and take an active role in it. __________________ <a href="http://www.staudernet.com/tba/" target="_blank">The Ball Alive!!! Commissioner \| Boston Red Sox</a><BR><BR><a href="http://cdl.ootp-leagues.com" target="_blank">CDL Pirates </a> \| Assistant Commish</b> \| 1990 & 1991 Champs<BR><BR> <a href="http://www.daishi.co.uk/" target="_blank">UKBL Braves</a> \| 2005 & 2010 Champs<BR> <a href="http://nahhbl.ootp-leagues.com" target="_blank">NAHHBL Seattle Mariners</a><BR> 1961 Expansion <a href="http://www.snowballhidalgo.com/" target="_blank">SHIBA LA Angels</a><BR> <a href="http://www.stauder.de/"> </a>

02-27-2003, 07:40 PM	#8
Recte44 Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Oconomowoc, WI Posts: 2,818	We have Participation Points in both the ORB and the MBBA and it really adds another dimension, IMO. I wouldn't call it bribing. MLB franchises have to do marketing, don't they? Same thing here, and we reward teams accordingly. __________________ Matt Rectenwald Commissioner, GM: Las Vegas Hustlers, The Brewster Baseball Association- fictional league (JOIN NOW)

02-27-2003, 09:13 PM	#9
UKSubs Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 272	But doesn't that double reward "good" owners who are more likely to be active than your lunchpail owners who always submit a lineup, since the "good" owners are more likely to be always working a trade or looking for that last guy in the FA pool that might be marginally useful in three months. (I admit to such behavior myself.) Giving them more resources creates bigger gulfs between the haves and the have nots. And since you aren't likely to lose owners from the frequent participaters as often, your new owners will be disadvantaged by these systems. Besides, the primary thing one can contribute to a league beside a lineup are articles about the league. If people feel compelled to write articles, you end up twenty articles that read like Joe Smith hit .471 last week, instead of a couple articles about the Quiz or interesting trade analysis. I know that I would rather read a few good articles than a score of so-so articles. Even worse, there are a number of people who don't feel like they are good writers or don't enjoy writing, so participation systems leave them feeling uncomfortable in an expected league activity and they end up being looked down upon. I think leagues should try to foster environments that are equally fun to as many types of owners as possible and I personally feel that participation point systems don't do that. __________________ Counter Culture Baseball Commissioner/Houston Astros RANZBA Adelaide Crows

02-27-2003, 01:45 PM	#4
spleen1015 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,008	I had one of these systems in my league and it didn't help increase participation in anyway.

02-27-2003, 01:52 PM	#5
sporr Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 8,277	We have one set up in the Maelstrom. Though it probably doesn't make an impact on most people, it at least rewards those who put in extra effort in their participation. Ours is subtle enough that it doesn't make any huge impact to the league, but allows teams scouting bonuses, team training bonuses, or money for stadium modification.

02-27-2003, 10:54 PM	#10
adventureran Major Leagues Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 447	I am very happy to see this thread. I, too, felt that I would rather have owners participate because they wanted to, not because they were rewarded. However, a couple of owners in the MBL (Maverick Baseball League) suggested starting an incentive program. So I looked at a few leagues to see what kinds of programs they had. I started writing something up and finally decided to shelve it for our upcoming season and will revisit it later. The biggest problem I see is the fairness issue others brought up here. Some folks just don't have as much time on their hands as others. Having said that, GBC Chairman does bring up a good point, that owning a franchise does include marketing and advertising that franchise. I appreciate the feedback here as I'm sure this will be brought up again in the MBL. Thanks all!

02-28-2003, 12:06 AM	#11
satchel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Ft Smith Ark. USA Posts: 2,681	rewards systems The ATHL has a good system, and it rewards owners for doing routine things, so that all the good owners benefit, not just those who do extraordinary things. To me, the best use of a system like this is just having a way to see who is participating in the league and who isn’t. Without some public track, league participation is vague to everyone except the Commissioner. Owers deserve to know who is turning lineups and who isn’t. __________________ JL Commish NPBL Rhode Island Reds ’33 ’34 ’35 TCBA San Francisco Railbornes ’74 ’76 ’77 ’78 FL New Orleans Black Sox ’56 ’57 ’58 ’59

02-28-2003, 08:26 AM	#12
sporr Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 8,277	In our system, our biggest reward is given to those who submit lineups on a regular basis.

02-28-2003, 12:48 PM	#15
Recte44 Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Oconomowoc, WI Posts: 2,818	And it's not just articles in which you gain reward. I'll post our current rules regarding Participation Points here (which are very basic at this time), with a revision forthcoming Wednesday that will incorporate franchise moves and stadium creation into the program. An owner may be relieved of his team if four sims go by without any communication to the league. You are also expected to post (at the minimum) at least one team update on the forum per week. A point system is available as a bonus for owner involvement (see below for details). Having and using AOL Instant Messenger is STRONGLY encouraged. Owners are expected to submit Team Exports for every sim, or send the Commissioner an email indicating there will be no changes. As a courtesy, owners are requested to respond to emails from other owners (i.e. trade requests, etc.) in a timely fashion. Owners are given an opportunity to participate in most league-wide rule changes and participation in these polls is in the owner's best interest. Owner IncentivesIn order to reward owner participation, a bonus system is available. Owners can accumulate points based on criteria described below. These points can be redeemed for the improvement of an owner's franchise (see below). Points will carry over from season to season. Owner Action Point Value Write News Article About Team 2 Write News Article About League 4 News and Team Articles may be submitted only once per sim. Other points may be awarded at Commissioner's discretion. All awarded points are to be posted publicly on the web site. Points may be redeemed at any point during the regular season or off-season, but not during the playoffs.Points may be redeemed for the following: Reward Points Necessary Increase Fan Loyalty 1 value (Max. Very Good)) 40 Increase Market Size 1 value (Max. of Big) 50 Add $1,000,000 to cash available 60 Build new stadium 100You may also “advertise” for your franchise by posting messages on the Forums. The more you post, the more you advertise for your franchise. Therefore, the more stars you earn, the more merchandising revenue you will earn for the upcoming off-season.25 posts- 2 stars = No additional revenue75 posts- 3 stars = No additional revenue125 posts- 4 stars = $500,000 additional merchandising revenue175 posts- 5 stars = $1,000,000 additional merchandising revenue300 posts- 6 stars = $1,500,000 additional merchandising revenue500 posts- 7 stars = $2,000,000 additional merchandising revenuePlus everyone likes to see a lot of stars by their name. Governing Board members are not eligible for this promotion. __________________ Matt Rectenwald Commissioner, GM: Las Vegas Hustlers, The Brewster Baseball Association- fictional league (JOIN NOW)

02-28-2003, 01:36 PM	#16
fhomess Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,693	In the JOBL our incentives are based largely on submitting lineups, and the only thing you really get is some cash. The main point of it, though, is to have a structured format for deciding whether or not owners are active enough (and this is pretty minimal) to stay in the league. People who don't get a lot of incentive points, aren't really hurt either, though, because the incentives are pretty small (max is ~$3 million cash). __________________ StatsLab- PHP/MySQL based utilities for Online Leagues Baseball Cards - Full list of known templates and documentation on card development.

03-01-2003, 05:41 PM	#17
Michael Xavier Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 456	I don't know if other owners do this, but I have a mindset on whether I will participate and to what degree. What I mean is, I am an original member of So'49 and the ABA, and I feel that I obligated to participate more in those leagues than in ones where I come in. I do not know why that is my mindset, but it exists. Don't get me wrong, I send in my lineups in all my leagues, but as to whether I post on the message board alot or write articles, often hinges on how I view my place within the league. Perhaps this could be the case with other owners, not all, but a few. __________________ OOTP since March 2002

03-02-2003, 10:20 AM	#18
Red Blow Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 404	I posted on this issue a little while back. http://www.400softwarestudios.com/bo...threadid=17662 We don't have a point system in the NOBL, but owners that post one team story per game month are allowed to host a free promotion day the next month. The promotion is called Autograph Day, is free, and adds 100% to attendance (guarantees a sellout). We probably average 90% or more each month using the free day. Point systems are good on paper, but I do wonder if they do not increase the void between already active owners and less-active ones. If what you are using works, though, run with it. __________________ http://www.nobl.net This is your father's league.