Talent Increases/Decreases are way off!

N8dogg777 · 03-01-2003, 01:57 AM

I do like how the talent system is setup for ootp5 with 1 exception.

Roy Oswalt's talent in avoiding homers drops...
Roy Oswalt's talent in avoiding walks drops...

now that wouldnt be bad if he werent 22-4, 2.44 ERA, 1.09WHIP, and there is still a month left to play!Hes only 26 so hes definately not old,Hes walked 64 batters,but as you can see by his WHIP hes pitched a ton of innings (213.2).He's allowed 20HR's!But his talent shouldnt be going down,it should be going up at 26 with the season he is having!

pallison14 · 03-01-2003, 02:19 AM

I've noticed this as well. The whole thing seems a lot more volatile.. Has anyone else noticed that the "38 year old wall" now appears to be the "35 or 36 year old wall"?

Seems like an abnormal number of 35 year olds get massive downgrades across the board..

N8dogg777 · 03-01-2003, 02:27 AM

I dont mind that part,since for the most part players start decreasing at that age anyway.I do think however that if a 35 year old player is having a 24-5,2.44 year his talent shouldnt be dropping!

Cidifer · 03-01-2003, 02:32 AM

Some times players get worn out through out the season, in fact most starting pitchers do better the 1st half of the season. Just tell yourself that and maybe you'll feel better.

N8dogg777 · 03-01-2003, 02:36 AM

Nah,what really helps is hitting Editor ON!,and switching the talent back to what it was!

satchel · 03-01-2003, 03:20 AM

Cry me a river.

MTXperience · 03-01-2003, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by N8dogg777
Nah,what really helps is hitting Editor ON!,and switching the talent back to what it was!

Wow... you'll never know what hit you. Let's just hope you don't discover yourself cheating or you'll have to ahave a very stern and disturbing lecture with yourself in a mirror.

N8dogg777 · 03-01-2003, 04:01 AM

Todd Helton .390,46,136

Todd Helton's Talent in hitting for average drops.....
Todd Helton's talent in hitting homers drops.....

This is definately a problem.

clarnzz · 03-01-2003, 04:17 AM

This is nothing new really. In OOTP4 guys would increase talent when doing horrible and drop after a career year as well.

I think alot of the problem is we have pre-concieved notions on what good players look like in OOTP4, but OOTP5 works differantly when it comes to ratings and talents making us think someone isnt as good when looking at their talent and ratings, but the stats come out looking pretty good.

Im under a current theory that it is causing some real wild things to happen in conversions as OOTP5 sees version 4 leagues as way overtalented and rated with the version 5 system.

Its late

, just a

theory when it comes to the ratings/talent issues coming up.

Steve Kuffrey · 03-01-2003, 04:21 AM

It is an issue that we will keep our eyes on, however-keep in mind that the game doesn't care what "name" is attached to the numbers that it sees.

Sudy Nym · 03-01-2003, 04:25 AM

Unless the game has changed that drastically (and I don't think it has, I've downloaded and registered my copy, as well), I am (and have been) under the impression that talent just drops (or rises) "randomly," sometimes. Is this really that much unlike real life? Young stars don't develop based upon the seasons that they're having. There's no rule stating that because a player is doing well, his talent can only go up. This is reality, sometimes plus or minus a roll of the die. How many former ROY's weren't heard from after their second seasons? I remember one. Pat Listach. I pulled an autographed card of his, several years ago. But guess why it isn't worth anything these days? Sudden talent decline and flukes happen.

There's nothing wrong with the talent system. A couple of stars have just had poor luck, in your case. Look around the league- I'm sure you'll see a few unprecedented rises, as well. One thing to remember is that "potentials" seem to rise and fall randomly, with the exception of developmental periods and as players age. It's the numerical ratings that curve to meet the potentials. I'd love to see (or be told) that most talent changes happen as a result of current performance, but then, isn't the fact that talent isn't based on raw stats alone what sets OOTP apart from the competition?

I don't mean to bite anyone's head off- I know how frustrating it is when stars take talent hits. But if you're serious about going to the editor to "right" a talent drop in a star, I'd think about it. Are you going to lower every talent increase in a scrub? It may all seem relatively random (only the developers know how random it truly is), but is that not the reality that everyone asks for? You can't have a baseball league where talents only go up.

N8dogg777 · 03-01-2003, 04:33 AM

I was just joking about editing them, but remember that these arent just good seasons,these are Awesome seasons. .390,46,136 is probably in the top 5 all time greatest individual single seasons.I cant think of anything better thats for sure....And nobody is saying that the talent should only go up,im just saying a player shouldnt get a talent decrease in a year like that.

And also,This wasnt Helton with the Rockies,he was with the Cardinals during that season.

N8dogg777 · 03-01-2003, 04:34 AM

One more thing to remember is this isnt just random,this has happened 2 times in the first 3 years,and it just happened again with Matt Morris.

clarnzz · 03-01-2003, 04:41 AM

A better way to tell if its all too random rather than picking out a few guys, let the engine sim 20 years and see what kinda carreer numbers guys are putting up.

If its crazy random you wont see many guys with 600+ career homers or 3000+ hits etc...... But I get the feeling you will. I just think people are too obsessed with ratings and talents when its the statistics that matter.

Sudy Nym · 03-01-2003, 04:44 AM

First of all, I thought you might have been joking regarding the editing- but as I'm getting so used to complainers, I figured that you were serious. I apologize if I seemed harsh in any way as a result of this.

Is the mentioned Helton season great? That depends on the league settings, and the accuracy of his talent ratings. But if this is a continued league, and you've never seen anything like this before, then I would, of course, agree.

But I repeat that some types of talent drops should have nothing to do with present statistics, whatsoever. Some things can be psychological. Others physical. Things that just come out of nowhere, and turn a player's season or career around. Baseball is a game of tiny numbers and random chances. So Helton isn't receiving a drop because of his great season (I would certainly hope that OOTP5 doesn't try to balance things out in this manner

), but I don't see how him having such a season should prevent him from having such a drop, either.

Quote:

One more thing to remember is this isnt just random,this has happened 2 times in the first 3 years,and it just happened again with Matt Morris.

I don't think that a notable talent drop in a star about once a season proves that talent changes aren't random. How is this not normal? Look at players like Mo Vaughn, and Tony Clark. There are very few great consistencies in player talent in the real world. Everyone has the capacity to falter. But on the other hand, are you telling me that there have been no notable rises in talent in three+ years of simming under OOTP5?

Katrina · 03-01-2003, 04:51 AM

Sorry about the multiple talent rating drops in one day. This was something I actually noticed about a week ago and I thought we had fixed it. I posted on the beta board about it and just finished talking with Markus on MSN about it. We'll get it squared away in no time. I really think the game is much better then last year and I hope everyone is enjoying themselves. Thanks

N8dogg777 · 03-01-2003, 04:51 AM

Only increases i have seen are prospects,all my (yellow star non prospects) have either dropped or stayed the same,and from what i can tell throughout the league there arent any increases either on major leaguers!This is in imported league from ootp4 so that may be the problem,but if it is then what is going to happen when everyone converts there ootp4 sims into ootp5?And i dont disagree with you that anyone can decrease at any time,but the fact that 3 of the top 10 players in the league on my team have done it in 3 years just makes me think something is wrong.

I have always been the one who complains about OOTP being to easy,so i love this in solo play,but when all my players in a sim having MVP/Cy Young years receive talent decreases i will be upset.

Btw,league settings are just normal,Modern Day 1980+,no changes to player performances or anything.

Sudy Nym · 03-01-2003, 04:55 AM

I'm not trying to argue your facts at all (you know what's going on in your league, I don't), but are you honestly telling me that not a single mature player in the league has had an increase (noted in the player development screen) in three plus seasons of play?

Because that just sounds ridiculous. If that's accurate, then there must be something wrong. I've converted my OOTP4 league as well, but as I simulate each game in pdb, I won't know of any drastic changes/problems for some time.

N8dogg777 · 03-01-2003, 04:58 AM

i didnt say that they didnt,just that i couldnt find one.but i am seeing a lot of decreases on them.

Sudy Nym · 03-01-2003, 05:01 AM

Er, well, shouldn't you check more thoroughly before we frighten the whole community?

03-01-2003, 01:57 AM	#1
N8dogg777 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: St.Louis Area Posts: 151	Talent Increases/Decreases are way off! I do like how the talent system is setup for ootp5 with 1 exception. Roy Oswalt's talent in avoiding homers drops... Roy Oswalt's talent in avoiding walks drops... now that wouldnt be bad if he werent 22-4, 2.44 ERA, 1.09WHIP, and there is still a month left to play!Hes only 26 so hes definately not old,Hes walked 64 batters,but as you can see by his WHIP hes pitched a ton of innings (213.2).He's allowed 20HR's!But his talent shouldnt be going down,it should be going up at 26 with the season he is having!

03-01-2003, 02:19 AM	#2
pallison14 Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 452	I've noticed this as well. The whole thing seems a lot more volatile.. Has anyone else noticed that the "38 year old wall" now appears to be the "35 or 36 year old wall"? Seems like an abnormal number of 35 year olds get massive downgrades across the board.. __________________ Commissioner, NGBL - Putting the FUNK in defunct. New York (AL), UBL

03-01-2003, 03:20 AM	#6
satchel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Ft Smith Ark. USA Posts: 2,681	tears Cry me a river. __________________ JL Commish NPBL Rhode Island Reds ’33 ’34 ’35 TCBA San Francisco Railbornes ’74 ’76 ’77 ’78 FL New Orleans Black Sox ’56 ’57 ’58 ’59

03-01-2003, 04:21 AM	#10
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,036	It is an issue that we will keep our eyes on, however-keep in mind that the game doesn't care what "name" is attached to the numbers that it sees. __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

03-01-2003, 04:25 AM	#11
Sudy Nym Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Hill, ON Posts: 492	Unless the game has changed that drastically (and I don't think it has, I've downloaded and registered my copy, as well), I am (and have been) under the impression that talent just drops (or rises) "randomly," sometimes. Is this really that much unlike real life? Young stars don't develop based upon the seasons that they're having. There's no rule stating that because a player is doing well, his talent can only go up. This is reality, sometimes plus or minus a roll of the die. How many former ROY's weren't heard from after their second seasons? I remember one. Pat Listach. I pulled an autographed card of his, several years ago. But guess why it isn't worth anything these days? Sudden talent decline and flukes happen. There's nothing wrong with the talent system. A couple of stars have just had poor luck, in your case. Look around the league- I'm sure you'll see a few unprecedented rises, as well. One thing to remember is that "potentials" seem to rise and fall randomly, with the exception of developmental periods and as players age. It's the numerical ratings that curve to meet the potentials. I'd love to see (or be told) that most talent changes happen as a result of current performance, but then, isn't the fact that talent isn't based on raw stats alone what sets OOTP apart from the competition? I don't mean to bite anyone's head off- I know how frustrating it is when stars take talent hits. But if you're serious about going to the editor to "right" a talent drop in a star, I'd think about it. Are you going to lower every talent increase in a scrub? It may all seem relatively random (only the developers know how random it truly is), but is that not the reality that everyone asks for? You can't have a baseball league where talents only go up. __________________ Tomorrow's Stars Today Baseball League - Portland Beavers <=> WL Wild Card: '11, '14 <=> WL North Divisional Champions: '02, '04-'10, '12, '13, '15-'18 <=> Western League Champions: '04-'06, '09, '10, '13, '18 <=> TSTBL World Champions: 2004, 2006, 2009, 2018 Last edited by Sudy Nym; 03-01-2003 at 04:27 AM.

03-01-2003, 02:27 AM	#3
N8dogg777 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: St.Louis Area Posts: 151	I dont mind that part,since for the most part players start decreasing at that age anyway.I do think however that if a 35 year old player is having a 24-5,2.44 year his talent shouldnt be dropping!

03-01-2003, 02:32 AM	#4
Cidifer Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 60	Some times players get worn out through out the season, in fact most starting pitchers do better the 1st half of the season. Just tell yourself that and maybe you'll feel better.

03-01-2003, 02:36 AM	#5
N8dogg777 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: St.Louis Area Posts: 151	Nah,what really helps is hitting Editor ON!,and switching the talent back to what it was!

03-01-2003, 04:01 AM	#8
N8dogg777 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: St.Louis Area Posts: 151	Todd Helton .390,46,136 Todd Helton's Talent in hitting for average drops..... Todd Helton's talent in hitting homers drops..... This is definately a problem.

03-01-2003, 04:17 AM	#9
clarnzz All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Following everyone off a cliff. Posts: 1,522	This is nothing new really. In OOTP4 guys would increase talent when doing horrible and drop after a career year as well. I think alot of the problem is we have pre-concieved notions on what good players look like in OOTP4, but OOTP5 works differantly when it comes to ratings and talents making us think someone isnt as good when looking at their talent and ratings, but the stats come out looking pretty good. Im under a current theory that it is causing some real wild things to happen in conversions as OOTP5 sees version 4 leagues as way overtalented and rated with the version 5 system. Its late , just a theory when it comes to the ratings/talent issues coming up.

03-01-2003, 04:33 AM	#12
N8dogg777 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: St.Louis Area Posts: 151	I was just joking about editing them, but remember that these arent just good seasons,these are Awesome seasons. .390,46,136 is probably in the top 5 all time greatest individual single seasons.I cant think of anything better thats for sure....And nobody is saying that the talent should only go up,im just saying a player shouldnt get a talent decrease in a year like that. And also,This wasnt Helton with the Rockies,he was with the Cardinals during that season.

03-01-2003, 04:34 AM	#13
N8dogg777 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: St.Louis Area Posts: 151	One more thing to remember is this isnt just random,this has happened 2 times in the first 3 years,and it just happened again with Matt Morris.

03-01-2003, 04:41 AM	#14
clarnzz All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Following everyone off a cliff. Posts: 1,522	A better way to tell if its all too random rather than picking out a few guys, let the engine sim 20 years and see what kinda carreer numbers guys are putting up. If its crazy random you wont see many guys with 600+ career homers or 3000+ hits etc...... But I get the feeling you will. I just think people are too obsessed with ratings and talents when its the statistics that matter.

03-01-2003, 04:51 AM	#16
Katrina Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: California Posts: 221	Sorry about the multiple talent rating drops in one day. This was something I actually noticed about a week ago and I thought we had fixed it. I posted on the beta board about it and just finished talking with Markus on MSN about it. We'll get it squared away in no time. I really think the game is much better then last year and I hope everyone is enjoying themselves. Thanks __________________ OOTP5 Beta Tester OOL Rockford Peaches Anaheim Angels Fan MSN-girlprincess1@cox.net

03-01-2003, 04:55 AM	#18
Sudy Nym Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Hill, ON Posts: 492	I'm not trying to argue your facts at all (you know what's going on in your league, I don't), but are you honestly telling me that not a single mature player in the league has had an increase (noted in the player development screen) in three plus seasons of play? Because that just sounds ridiculous. If that's accurate, then there must be something wrong. I've converted my OOTP4 league as well, but as I simulate each game in pdb, I won't know of any drastic changes/problems for some time. __________________ Tomorrow's Stars Today Baseball League - Portland Beavers <=> WL Wild Card: '11, '14 <=> WL North Divisional Champions: '02, '04-'10, '12, '13, '15-'18 <=> Western League Champions: '04-'06, '09, '10, '13, '18 <=> TSTBL World Champions: 2004, 2006, 2009, 2018 Last edited by Sudy Nym; 03-01-2003 at 04:58 AM.

03-01-2003, 04:58 AM	#19
N8dogg777 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: St.Louis Area Posts: 151	i didnt say that they didnt,just that i couldnt find one.but i am seeing a lot of decreases on them.

03-01-2003, 05:01 AM	#20
Sudy Nym Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Hill, ON Posts: 492	Er, well, shouldn't you check more thoroughly before we frighten the whole community? __________________ Tomorrow's Stars Today Baseball League - Portland Beavers <=> WL Wild Card: '11, '14 <=> WL North Divisional Champions: '02, '04-'10, '12, '13, '15-'18 <=> Western League Champions: '04-'06, '09, '10, '13, '18 <=> TSTBL World Champions: 2004, 2006, 2009, 2018