Is the fun back?

bigcat · 02-10-2007, 11:24 AM

At the risk of being an even bigger jerk than usual and starting a flame war, this is a real question for me.
I do not like 2006 in any way, shape or form. I purchased / played every version of OOTP (even ITP) and considered it my favorite game, but now I find myself playing 6.5 if I play at all.
I tried to love the "new" OOTP, but to me it was like the change from Coke to "new" coke. It went from a classic to forcing down something that tasted like battery acid.
It was my honor to be a very late beta tester after saying that I wanted to make a broadcasting mod for the game. By the way, I'm sorry it never got done. I made several honest attempts to make such a mod, but playing the game depressed me so much, that it never got to the point of publication.
Even when I was allowed to beta, the game felt like a train wreck to me, but I swallowed the gall and tried to make useful suggestions.
Time has not altered my opinion and I don't think I'm alone in this regard. Are any of the changes going to make this game less like a futbol sim with a unique skin and more like an American Baseball sim or is it time for me and anyone who shares my opinion to shut our mouths and move on to other pastures that we view as greener?

Bluenoser · 02-10-2007, 11:27 AM

I'd recommend downloading the Demo when it becomes available and form your own opinion. Even if all the Beta testers say it's awesome, which they are btw, only you can answer your question. What's fun for one person may not be fun at all for another.

CHCfan · 02-10-2007, 11:35 AM

what exactly wasn't fun about v2006? I understand it lacked some features, and others did not necessarily function well. But can you try just a little bit to qualify what "fun" is?

Nutlaw · 02-10-2007, 11:35 AM

There should be little doubt that it will be more fun than 2006 was. Version 2007 certainly feels a whole lot more fun to me. As BruceM wrote, however, try it out for yourself.

BusterKing · 02-10-2007, 11:37 AM

Well if you are barely playing 6.5 and hate 2006 then I can't see how 2007 will change your mind.

I think you're right in saying that you should "move on to other pastures".

jarmenia · 02-10-2007, 12:01 PM

In short yes.

In long, I've started playing OOTP in ways I never used to. I've always been a long term simmer trying different things, and then looking at the players histories ect. Since I've been part of the beta, I've actually been playing OOTP both in the GM role and the manager role. I've enjoyed the new ways of playing so much, I'm thinking about starting my "real" universe and playing game by game.

Rockpile · 02-10-2007, 12:08 PM

What features are back or added that make it fun?

Does the game flow better than 2006 and not seem so much like a database?

Is it more user friendly (example would be the looped tasks for the scouts)?

Are the text elements (PBP, news stories) better? Do "scouts" give written descriptions of players?

Does it sim and/or load any faster than 2006?

All of those would add up to "more fun" for me.

Zitofan75 · 02-10-2007, 12:11 PM

Don't rely on the betas for your opinion, don't rely on the fanboys, or the doom and gloomers ... when the demo comes, try it. Then you'll know.

darkenigma510 · 02-10-2007, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigcat

Are any of the changes going to make this game less like a futbol sim with a unique skin ?

I'm confused. Did a World Cup game load onto your computer while playing?

bigcat · 02-10-2007, 12:15 PM

Thanks for all the quick and polite replies.
Good point on the demo, BruceM and Nutlaw. I'll try it, I'm so used to just buying at the first announcement that I forgot they did demos. I'm not surprised that the beta testers like it. With all due respect to the fine people who do the testing and they do an excellent and under-respected job, they are all hardcore fans of OOTP and Markus. They aren't likely to go beyond finding bugs and writing PbP to intensively looking at questionable design. The major problem with non-paid testers is the lack of opposing views. This is why Sid Meier creates builds early and often and requires everyone in the company to break them, get bored with them and improve them.
CHCFan, good question. Fun as others point out is subjective. Major changes in a game result in new fans and the lose of old ones. This can be a major problem as in the Master of Orien Series(sp) in which the third entry is widely considered one of the worst games ever published by a major. It can also be a major boon such as Sims2 or Sid Meier's Railroads where many folks considered the sequel far better than the original game.
The farther you stray from the expected design, the greater the chance of some twit like me posting a message like this.

My gut qualms with 2006, are that it is no longer a pick up and play game. The level of complexity is such that is requires the player to be a 'hardcore' baseball and OOTP fan. While I love this series, having migrated to it after discovering Clay's first attempts in the genre, I am a fan of 'builder' games and a more casual baseball fan. So I enjoy Sims, Simcity, Civ, business sims, RPGs etc.. that allow me to start at the bottom and build up a dynasty of some sort. If an RPG came along that required me to know the actual dynamics of sword-play, theoretical magic or the details of medevial social interactions, I would dislike that game even though it would be realistic. By the same token I want an RPG that is more than just "hack n slash".
In the past I considered OOTP and Jim Gruden's football games to be an excellent mid-ground of playability and challenge. If it where an RPG , OOTP seems to headline "Serious Roleplayers Only. No Casual Players Need Apply". The interface is daunting and very Eurocentric in design, being derived from the best footie sim in England. The pace of play is much slower and the play it self is less intuitive. The game suffers from a lack of feedback, so those who aren't true baseball experts are wandering in the dark wondering what happened to the navigation guides.
Sorry I went overboard, there.
Which leads me to the conclusion that BusterKing is right.
Thanks for actually reading all of the above and for those of you who enjoy 2006, I honestly hope 2007 is everything you've dreamed of in a Baseball Sim.

cephasjames · 02-10-2007, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigcat

Thanks for all the quick and polite replies.
Good point on the demo, BruceM and Nutlaw. I'll try it, I'm so used to just buying at the first announcement that I forgot they did demos. I'm not surprised that the beta testers like it. With all due respect to the fine people who do the testing and they do an excellent and under-respected job, they are all hardcore fans of OOTP and Markus. They aren't likely to go beyond finding bugs and writing PbP to intensively looking at questionable design. The major problem with non-paid testers is the lack of opposing views. This is why Sid Meier creates builds early and often and requires everyone in the company to break them, get bored with them and improve them.
CHCFan, good question. Fun as others point out is subjective. Major changes in a game result in new fans and the lose of old ones. This can be a major problem as in the Master of Orien Series(sp) in which the third entry is widely considered one of the worst games ever published by a major. It can also be a major boon such as Sims2 or Sid Meier's Railroads where many folks considered the sequel far better than the original game.
The farther you stray from the expected design, the greater the chance of some twit like me posting a message like this.

My gut qualms with 2006, are that it is no longer a pick up and play game. The level of complexity is such that is requires the player to be a 'hardcore' baseball and OOTP fan. While I love this series, having migrated to it after discovering Clay's first attempts in the genre, I am a fan of 'builder' games and a more casual baseball fan. So I enjoy Sims, Simcity, Civ, business sims, RPGs etc.. that allow me to start at the bottom and build up a dynasty of some sort. If an RPG came along that required me to know the actual dynamics of sword-play, theoretical magic or the details of medevial social interactions, I would dislike that game even though it would be realistic. By the same token I want an RPG that is more than just "hack n slash".
In the past I considered OOTP and Jim Gruden's football games to be an excellent mid-ground of playability and challenge. If it where an RPG , OOTP seems to headline "Serious Roleplayers Only. No Casual Players Need Apply". The interface is daunting and very Eurocentric in design, being derived from the best footie sim in England. The pace of play is much slower and the play it self is less intuitive. The game suffers from a lack of feedback, so those who aren't true baseball experts are wandering in the dark wondering what happened to the navigation guides.
Sorry I went overboard, there.
Which leads me to the conclusion that BusterKing is right.
Thanks for actually reading all of the above and for those of you who enjoy 2006, I honestly hope 2007 is everything you've dreamed of in a Baseball Sim.

You know what I would find fun, bigcat? Spaces between new sentences.

I'm interested in what you have to say, but oi! is it hard to read.

I think that with the new rewrite the game has gone through (is going through) some growing pains - which can be expected. It may not be for everyone (or even the same people that liked previous versions). I liked '06 as a whole, though there were some pretty frustrating things to me (no easy expansion, no add/delete leagues were my biggest) and I probably haven't played it as much as other versions. But I know from experience that when Markus puts something in the game its generally done well. Add that experience to the big list of changes and additions and this version looks to be pretty good.

But like others, I say go ahead and get the demo. 2006 was the rebirth of OOTP. 2007 may only be the toddler or kindergarten version. You may not like it again until its a teenager, but you don't know unless you play with it yourself.

battists · 02-10-2007, 12:32 PM

Just to throw my 2 cents in, I do urge you to try the demo.

However, based on your rather vehement reaction to 2006, I'd say 2007 is unlikely to change your mind. Fundamentally, it's the same game as 2006, with new features and improvements. It's not like he re-wrote the game again with an entirely different approach.

I guess my point is, don't get your hopes up, but try to approach it with an open mind.

Rockpile · 02-10-2007, 12:33 PM

Well, I listed pretty specific stuff that betas might be able to answer with a yes or no.

Zitofan75 · 02-10-2007, 12:37 PM

The game is striving for more complexity and I think it's been doing that for the past several versions. That has thrown some people off who aren't looking for that. If it's complexity that's ruining the fun factor then perhaps it still won't be fun for you.

For others it was the interface and how it looked, felt, and operated. I liked it but others didn't and so when the first screens of 2007 were released a thread said "nothing new, interface looks the same." Some will not get past the new interface and that will be a problem because the interface of 6.51 is history.

Still the only way to tell is through the demo. If it was a problem of the visual appearance of the interface then you might be unhappy, if it was more about how it functioned the betas are indicating you can navigate it much more smoothly and intuitively.

battists · 02-10-2007, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockpile

What features are back or added that make it fun?

Does the game flow better than 2006 and not seem so much like a database?

Is it more user friendly (example would be the looped tasks for the scouts)?

Are the text elements (PBP, news stories) better? Do "scouts" give written descriptions of players?

Does it sim and/or load any faster than 2006?

All of those would add up to "more fun" for me.

Well, most of these are subjective questions. It performs slightly better in comparison to 2006, but it won't blow your socks off. No written scout descriptions in this version. (Several of us fought for this, but it's likely to be in the next version instead.)

The rest of the stuff, I think is all better, but that's just my opinion...

jarmenia · 02-10-2007, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigcat

With all due respect to the fine people who do the testing and they do an excellent and under-respected job, they are all hardcore fans of OOTP and Markus. They aren't likely to go beyond finding bugs and writing PbP to intensively looking at questionable design. The major problem with non-paid testers is the lack of opposing views.

This may have been true in the past but not this year. We have taken Markus to task several times because things needed to be fixed, a design idea changed, or something slated for 2008 needed to be put in this year. Just recently we had a 122 post thread basically where myself, other testers, and Markus were "discussing" the way a certain feature should be implemented. Eventually the right decision was made. This isn't the only example but just the most recent. There have been many other discussions such as the order things should be determined for better stat accuracy. Markus has disagreed at times, but some solution is always worked out and the game improved.

Are we fans of Markus and OOTP, sure. Are we blind to its flaws no. Are we doing everything we can to help Markus improve it? You bet we are. Is it going to be perfect. Nope. Will it be the best OOTP version yet? I belive so.

Markus Heinsohn · 02-10-2007, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigcat

The major problem with non-paid testers is the lack of opposing views.

Oh boy, I wish you were right at times. This is by far the most critical group of testers we've ever had. But it pays off

bigcat · 02-10-2007, 12:52 PM

Thanks again for the excellent opinions and the kind replies.
Hi battists, I'm glad they have you on the team, you do a great job.

Quick question, I thought I would retry both games and see if my opinion changes / I'm missing something. I put in a new HD and am trying to re-DL the games. 6.0/6.5 came down fine, but 2006 is taking forever and seems to have died, any good mirrors? All are regged, I'm not asking for torrents, just trying to get the game back on my HD.

Didn't see the previous two posts. Good to hear that the beta is going so well and there is much critical thought. I may well be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.

As anyone who knows me can testify.

Thanks for replying Markus and allowing an open discussion about things some official boards would consider banworthy, even though I'm sure I'm not your favorite poster.

Lol maybe my problem is I like the folks involved and the community, its only the durn game I'm struggling with....

Zitofan75 · 02-10-2007, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigcat

I'm not surprised that the beta testers like it. With all due respect to the fine people who do the testing and they do an excellent and under-respected job, they are all hardcore fans of OOTP and Markus. They aren't likely to go beyond finding bugs and writing PbP to intensively looking at questionable design. The major problem with non-paid testers is the lack of opposing views.

With all due respect have you been reading the posts where beta testers make comments? Have you noticed a fairly common statement by many of them, that they didn't like 2006, that they had stopped playing it and that was part of the reason for them being betas? They don't seem to have been picked because they were fanboys of 2006, in fact the opposite seems true. You seem to be reading a lot of generalities into a situation that perhaps you need to study more closely.

battists · 02-10-2007, 01:14 PM

Ask Rasnell how much of a "fanboy" he was.

It is hard, though, selecting a beta team. You want people who are dedicated enough to the game to put in effort towards testing, and with non-professional testers, you just don't get that with people who hate the game.

At the same time, you also don't want people who fundamentally disagree with the direction the game is taking, and are just going to whine about that instead of working at improving the direction that has been selected. You also don't want people who are unwilling to compromise. The beta team needs a certain amount of harmony to function in a cooperative fashion.

02-10-2007, 11:24 AM	#1
bigcat Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 190	Is the fun back? At the risk of being an even bigger jerk than usual and starting a flame war, this is a real question for me. I do not like 2006 in any way, shape or form. I purchased / played every version of OOTP (even ITP) and considered it my favorite game, but now I find myself playing 6.5 if I play at all. I tried to love the "new" OOTP, but to me it was like the change from Coke to "new" coke. It went from a classic to forcing down something that tasted like battery acid. It was my honor to be a very late beta tester after saying that I wanted to make a broadcasting mod for the game. By the way, I'm sorry it never got done. I made several honest attempts to make such a mod, but playing the game depressed me so much, that it never got to the point of publication. Even when I was allowed to beta, the game felt like a train wreck to me, but I swallowed the gall and tried to make useful suggestions. Time has not altered my opinion and I don't think I'm alone in this regard. Are any of the changes going to make this game less like a futbol sim with a unique skin and more like an American Baseball sim or is it time for me and anyone who shares my opinion to shut our mouths and move on to other pastures that we view as greener?

02-10-2007, 12:01 PM	#6
jarmenia Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tampa, FL USA Posts: 4,503	In short yes. In long, I've started playing OOTP in ways I never used to. I've always been a long term simmer trying different things, and then looking at the players histories ect. Since I've been part of the beta, I've actually been playing OOTP both in the GM role and the manager role. I've enjoyed the new ways of playing so much, I'm thinking about starting my "real" universe and playing game by game. __________________ When is good enough, good enough?

02-10-2007, 12:52 PM	#18
bigcat Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 190	Thanks again for the excellent opinions and the kind replies. Hi battists, I'm glad they have you on the team, you do a great job. Quick question, I thought I would retry both games and see if my opinion changes / I'm missing something. I put in a new HD and am trying to re-DL the games. 6.0/6.5 came down fine, but 2006 is taking forever and seems to have died, any good mirrors? All are regged, I'm not asking for torrents, just trying to get the game back on my HD. Didn't see the previous two posts. Good to hear that the beta is going so well and there is much critical thought. I may well be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. As anyone who knows me can testify. Thanks for replying Markus and allowing an open discussion about things some official boards would consider banworthy, even though I'm sure I'm not your favorite poster. Lol maybe my problem is I like the folks involved and the community, its only the durn game I'm struggling with.... Last edited by bigcat; 02-10-2007 at 12:58 PM. Reason: Spelling

02-10-2007, 11:27 AM	#2
Bluenoser Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In The Moment Posts: 14,075	I'd recommend downloading the Demo when it becomes available and form your own opinion. Even if all the Beta testers say it's awesome, which they are btw, only you can answer your question. What's fun for one person may not be fun at all for another.

02-10-2007, 11:35 AM	#3
CHCfan All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Grand Island, NE Posts: 1,117	what exactly wasn't fun about v2006? I understand it lacked some features, and others did not necessarily function well. But can you try just a little bit to qualify what "fun" is?

02-10-2007, 11:35 AM	#4
Nutlaw Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,538	There should be little doubt that it will be more fun than 2006 was. Version 2007 certainly feels a whole lot more fun to me. As BruceM wrote, however, try it out for yourself.

02-10-2007, 11:37 AM	#5
BusterKing Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,416	Well if you are barely playing 6.5 and hate 2006 then I can't see how 2007 will change your mind. I think you're right in saying that you should "move on to other pastures".

02-10-2007, 12:08 PM	#7
Rockpile All Star Reserve Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 620	What features are back or added that make it fun? Does the game flow better than 2006 and not seem so much like a database? Is it more user friendly (example would be the looped tasks for the scouts)? Are the text elements (PBP, news stories) better? Do "scouts" give written descriptions of players? Does it sim and/or load any faster than 2006? All of those would add up to "more fun" for me.

02-10-2007, 12:11 PM	#8
Zitofan75 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: California Posts: 1,413	Don't rely on the betas for your opinion, don't rely on the fanboys, or the doom and gloomers ... when the demo comes, try it. Then you'll know.

02-10-2007, 12:15 PM	#10
bigcat Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 190	Thanks for all the quick and polite replies. Good point on the demo, BruceM and Nutlaw. I'll try it, I'm so used to just buying at the first announcement that I forgot they did demos. I'm not surprised that the beta testers like it. With all due respect to the fine people who do the testing and they do an excellent and under-respected job, they are all hardcore fans of OOTP and Markus. They aren't likely to go beyond finding bugs and writing PbP to intensively looking at questionable design. The major problem with non-paid testers is the lack of opposing views. This is why Sid Meier creates builds early and often and requires everyone in the company to break them, get bored with them and improve them. CHCFan, good question. Fun as others point out is subjective. Major changes in a game result in new fans and the lose of old ones. This can be a major problem as in the Master of Orien Series(sp) in which the third entry is widely considered one of the worst games ever published by a major. It can also be a major boon such as Sims2 or Sid Meier's Railroads where many folks considered the sequel far better than the original game. The farther you stray from the expected design, the greater the chance of some twit like me posting a message like this. My gut qualms with 2006, are that it is no longer a pick up and play game. The level of complexity is such that is requires the player to be a 'hardcore' baseball and OOTP fan. While I love this series, having migrated to it after discovering Clay's first attempts in the genre, I am a fan of 'builder' games and a more casual baseball fan. So I enjoy Sims, Simcity, Civ, business sims, RPGs etc.. that allow me to start at the bottom and build up a dynasty of some sort. If an RPG came along that required me to know the actual dynamics of sword-play, theoretical magic or the details of medevial social interactions, I would dislike that game even though it would be realistic. By the same token I want an RPG that is more than just "hack n slash". In the past I considered OOTP and Jim Gruden's football games to be an excellent mid-ground of playability and challenge. If it where an RPG , OOTP seems to headline "Serious Roleplayers Only. No Casual Players Need Apply". The interface is daunting and very Eurocentric in design, being derived from the best footie sim in England. The pace of play is much slower and the play it self is less intuitive. The game suffers from a lack of feedback, so those who aren't true baseball experts are wandering in the dark wondering what happened to the navigation guides. Sorry I went overboard, there. Which leads me to the conclusion that BusterKing is right. Thanks for actually reading all of the above and for those of you who enjoy 2006, I honestly hope 2007 is everything you've dreamed of in a Baseball Sim.

02-10-2007, 12:32 PM	#12
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506 Blog Entries: 7	Just to throw my 2 cents in, I do urge you to try the demo. However, based on your rather vehement reaction to 2006, I'd say 2007 is unlikely to change your mind. Fundamentally, it's the same game as 2006, with new features and improvements. It's not like he re-wrote the game again with an entirely different approach. I guess my point is, don't get your hopes up, but try to approach it with an open mind.

02-10-2007, 12:33 PM	#13
Rockpile All Star Reserve Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 620	Well, I listed pretty specific stuff that betas might be able to answer with a yes or no.

02-10-2007, 12:37 PM	#14
Zitofan75 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: California Posts: 1,413	The game is striving for more complexity and I think it's been doing that for the past several versions. That has thrown some people off who aren't looking for that. If it's complexity that's ruining the fun factor then perhaps it still won't be fun for you. For others it was the interface and how it looked, felt, and operated. I liked it but others didn't and so when the first screens of 2007 were released a thread said "nothing new, interface looks the same." Some will not get past the new interface and that will be a problem because the interface of 6.51 is history. Still the only way to tell is through the demo. If it was a problem of the visual appearance of the interface then you might be unhappy, if it was more about how it functioned the betas are indicating you can navigate it much more smoothly and intuitively.

02-10-2007, 01:14 PM	#20
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506 Blog Entries: 7	Ask Rasnell how much of a "fanboy" he was. It is hard, though, selecting a beta team. You want people who are dedicated enough to the game to put in effort towards testing, and with non-professional testers, you just don't get that with people who hate the game. At the same time, you also don't want people who fundamentally disagree with the direction the game is taking, and are just going to whine about that instead of working at improving the direction that has been selected. You also don't want people who are unwilling to compromise. The beta team needs a certain amount of harmony to function in a cooperative fashion.