Anyone ever make a team based solely on speed? - Page 10

Spielman · 02-27-2003, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Springtime_for_Hunter
CBL- did you cut out strikeout-throwout DPs and unassisted DPs other than by the 1B, which aren't in OOTP4?

Others -

A higher OPS does not necessarily make for a better leadoff hitter. I'd take a .400/.350 leadoff guy over a .325/.450 one any day, and so should you.

Actually, I'd take the .400/.350 guy over the .325/.450 guy at any spot in the order, because OPS weights SLG% too much, and the .400/.350 guy would be the more valuable hitter.

Batting order is hugely overrated, and doesn't have nearly the impact it's been reputed to. You're far better off with nine good hitters than you are with guys who are supposed to fill a particular slot, but aren't quite as good overall with the stick.

-Spielman

Hammer755 · 02-27-2003, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rockze25
Let me ask you this:

What makes more sense?

1. You have a leadoff hitter that gets on base 50% of the time but doesn't hit a lot of home runs. Your #3 and 4 hitters have decent OPSs and come up to the plate the majority of the time with the leadoff hitter on base.

2. You have a leadoff hitter that hits home runs with a .270 average and is about league average with his walk totals. Your #3 and 4 players are the same as stated in #1.

Apparently, you don't understand the components of OPS.

OPS = OBP + SLG

So, in the example you cited, I'll take player #1 because he will have the higher OPS because he will have a much higher OBP than player #2. At least make sense when spouting your off-base opinions.

So, I answered your question exactly the way you wanted me to and you were still wrong. Weird how that happened, huh?

Spielman · 02-27-2003, 05:31 PM

Just a random bit of fun.

http://www.bigbadbaseball.com/articl..._20000401.html

-Spielman

rockze25 · 02-27-2003, 05:42 PM

Example 1:

Ichiro Suzuki had a .388 OBP last season with 8 HRs. When he did not homer, he got on base 37.4 percent of the time. If he scored even half of the time he got on base, he would have scored 112 times in 600 PA. With the 8 home runs, thats 120 times. If he got on 50 percent of the time with the same 8 home runs, he would have scored 166 times.

Example 2:

Alfonso Soriano had a .332 OBP last season with 39 HRs. When he did not homer, he got on base 26.8 percent of the time. If he scored even half of the time he got on base, he would have scored 80 times in 600 PA. With the 39 home runs, thats 119 times. Even if he would have gotten on base 40 percent of the time, he would have only scored 159 times with the same 39 homers.

Clearly, with this example, its not as big of a difference as you would think. I think it is better to have men on base through singles and walks so you can have the players behind the leadoff man do their job and hit them in rather than to have them homer often and walk and hit less.

rockze25 · 02-27-2003, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hammer755
Apparently, you don't understand the components of OPS.

OPS = OBP + SLG

So, in the example you cited, I'll take player #1 because he will have the higher OPS because he will have a much higher OBP than player #2. At least make sense when spouting your off-base opinions.

So, I answered your question exactly the way you wanted me to and you were still wrong. Weird how that happened, huh?

Actually, due to the players home run totals, he would have a higher OPS.

So quick to make me look bad when you don't even look at what you're doing. Alfonso Soriano had a higher OPS than Ichiro did last year and given my example, they would have scored the same amount.

CBL-Commish · 02-27-2003, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rockze25
I think it is better to have men on base through singles and walks so you can have the players behind the leadoff man do their job and hit them in rather than to have them homer often and walk and hit less.

You're using examples of players who either have high OBA/low SLG or low OBA/high SLG. In the real world there are players that do both.

What matters is having both a high OBA and a high SLG. It doesn't matter if your leadoff guy has 40 homers or 4, if they have similar OPSes the team will score similar numbers of runs.

rockze25 · 02-27-2003, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CBL-Commish
You're using examples of players who either have high OBA/low SLG or low OBA/high SLG. In the real world there are players that do both.

What matters is having both a high OBA and a high SLG. It doesn't matter if your leadoff guy has 40 homers or 4, if they have similar OPSes the team will score similar numbers of runs.

Ummmm, did you miss the point?

Alfonso Soriano had a .870 or so OPS and Ichiro had a .813 OPS and they both scored the same amount of runs. If Ichiro had the same OPS as Soriano, he would have scored even more.

How do you explain this?

rockze25 · 02-27-2003, 05:59 PM

Oh that's right, I just did explain it. Yet still you find some way to say how wrong or dumb I am. Simply amazing.

Modern Relic · 02-27-2003, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rockze25
Simply amazing.

Why yes. Yes you are.

rockze25 · 02-27-2003, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Modern Relic
Why yes. Yes you are.

What's amazing is how you can't acknowledge that I'm right. I do all the time when you make a good point.

You wanted me to provide some evidence and I did. What more do you want?

Modern Relic · 02-27-2003, 06:03 PM

Never mind friskyman you will never get the picture.

darkhorse · 02-27-2003, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rockze25
Ummmm, did you miss the point?

Alfonso Soriano had a .870 or so OPS and Ichiro had a .813 OPS and they both scored the same amount of runs. If Ichiro had the same OPS as Soriano, he would have scored even more.

How do you explain this?

Soriano scored 128 runs and Ichiro scored 111 runs in 2002.

Spielman · 02-27-2003, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rockze25
Ummmm, did you miss the point?

Alfonso Soriano had a .870 or so OPS and Ichiro had a .813 OPS and they both scored the same amount of runs. If Ichiro had the same OPS as Soriano, he would have scored even more.

How do you explain this?

Psst... Soriano would have driven in more runs. Saying that Ichiro would score as many runs as Soriano is ignoring a big part of things.

Unless you think that runs driven in by leadoff guys don't count for some reason, that should still be a factor in which player is the better hitter. You shouldn't ignore either side of the equation in any spot in the batting order, because to a large extent, a hitter is a hitter regardless of his spot in the order.

-Spielman

CBL-Commish · 02-27-2003, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by darkhorse
Soriano scored 128 runs and Ichiro scored 111 runs in 2002.

Don't try and mess up the guy's argument with facts...

rockze25 · 02-27-2003, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by darkhorse
Soriano scored 128 runs and Ichiro scored 111 runs in 2002.

You completely missed the point. I'm trying to fix a couple of variables here, like other players in the lineup. Of course better protection will have you score more often.

Red my example to see how they scored the same amount of runs.

rockze25 · 02-27-2003, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CBL-Commish
Don't try and mess up the guy's argument with facts...

Read my post about about stating the 2 examples.

Modern Relic · 02-27-2003, 06:10 PM

Never mind what i said. you are the man sorry.

SoxWin · 02-27-2003, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rockze25
You completely missed the point. I'm trying to fix a couple of variables here, like other players in the lineup. Of course better protection will have you score more often.

Red my example to see how they scored the same amount of runs.

But you're example isn't reality, or am I still missing the point oh wise one?

Rich

rockze25 · 02-27-2003, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spielman
Psst... Soriano would have driven in more runs. Saying that Ichiro would score as many runs as Soriano is ignoring a big part of things.

Unless you think that runs driven in by leadoff guys don't count for some reason, that should still be a factor in which player is the better hitter. You shouldn't ignore either side of the equation in any spot in the batting order, because to a large extent, a hitter is a hitter regardless of his spot in the order.

-Spielman

Good point.

The fact that he would drive in more runs would make up for the deficit plus a little more. However, it's not as big of a difference as you would think. They would still be about equal when it comes to total runs.

Modern Relic · 02-27-2003, 06:17 PM

Texting. seeing if this work.

02-27-2003, 06:03 PM	#191
Modern Relic All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,266	Never mind friskyman you will never get the picture. __________________ American Folklore Baseball League (closed): Commissioner/GM - Mudville Nine (ruled!) Former member of Boys of Summer: GM - St. Louis Browns (doormats!) Former member of the OTBL: GM - Gashouse Gorillas (also ruled!) "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby

02-27-2003, 06:10 PM	#197
Modern Relic All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,266	Never mind what i said. you are the man sorry. __________________ American Folklore Baseball League (closed): Commissioner/GM - Mudville Nine (ruled!) Former member of Boys of Summer: GM - St. Louis Browns (doormats!) Former member of the OTBL: GM - Gashouse Gorillas (also ruled!) "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby

02-27-2003, 06:17 PM	#200
Modern Relic All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,266	Texting. seeing if this work. __________________ American Folklore Baseball League (closed): Commissioner/GM - Mudville Nine (ruled!) Former member of Boys of Summer: GM - St. Louis Browns (doormats!) Former member of the OTBL: GM - Gashouse Gorillas (also ruled!) "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby

02-27-2003, 05:31 PM	#183
Spielman All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 1,668	Just a random bit of fun. http://www.bigbadbaseball.com/articl..._20000401.html -Spielman

02-27-2003, 05:42 PM	#184
rockze25 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 243	Example 1: Ichiro Suzuki had a .388 OBP last season with 8 HRs. When he did not homer, he got on base 37.4 percent of the time. If he scored even half of the time he got on base, he would have scored 112 times in 600 PA. With the 8 home runs, thats 120 times. If he got on 50 percent of the time with the same 8 home runs, he would have scored 166 times. Example 2: Alfonso Soriano had a .332 OBP last season with 39 HRs. When he did not homer, he got on base 26.8 percent of the time. If he scored even half of the time he got on base, he would have scored 80 times in 600 PA. With the 39 home runs, thats 119 times. Even if he would have gotten on base 40 percent of the time, he would have only scored 159 times with the same 39 homers. Clearly, with this example, its not as big of a difference as you would think. I think it is better to have men on base through singles and walks so you can have the players behind the leadoff man do their job and hit them in rather than to have them homer often and walk and hit less.

02-27-2003, 05:59 PM	#188
rockze25 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 243	Oh that's right, I just did explain it. Yet still you find some way to say how wrong or dumb I am. Simply amazing.