Your Hall of Fame Snub

[GForce]

Originally Posted by The Professor

Gossage: 246,212,193, 180, 180, 173, 173 and that ignores the 465 in 1981 (albeit with not quite 50 IP)

Sutter: 327,226,185,149,143,136,127

Sutter had one superior peak season, but Gossage was almost as good and was better for longer. And those Sutter ERA+'s don't fall during his injury plagued decline in Atlanta.

Sutter won a CY. Gossage probably deserved a CY or MVP in 1980.

Gossage was better, IMO.

I knew the 465, but I just didn't think there were enough innings to include it.

Like I said, I think Gossage should be in. But at their best, I take Sutter.

Lee Smith, however, rates nowhere near this equation

GH

[Jason Moyer]

Baseball - Buck O'Neil. I'm becoming more and more of a fan of a small hall, and I don't think there's a way I could slice things up and keep him out.
Football - Art Monk. I mean, really...he has to be the Ron Santo of the football hall of fame. One of the greatest ever at a position with lots of inductees, almost all of whom have far worse credentials.

I'd name one for the Rock and Roll HoF, but I'd rather they just burned the stupid thing down and started over. Whereas, I'd be ok if they just used a wrecking ball for the baseball/football ones.

[jerrycapo]

Originally Posted by mlyons

Dale Murphy's OPS+ was right around 150 during those six big seasons. For centerfield points of reference: Ken Griffey, Jr.'s five big seasons averaged around 160 and Bernie Williams ran around 147 during his six peak seasons. The gold standards, Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays, were around 190 and 170, respectively, during their peaks.

I have a tough time thinking of Williams in the HoF, and I can't really justify putting Murphy in without putting Williams in. I'm a small Hall guy, though.

I am not sure what goes into OPS+ but I think the biggest difference between Murphy and Williams was that at his peak Williams was very good but Murphy was the best player of the 80's. Between the years 1980 and 1989 Dale Murphy scored 77 more runs than any other player. Murph hit 28 more home runs than any other player and had 21 more RBI than any other player. While it has been argued that Gold Gloves do not necessarily equal the best defender, Murph was definately one of the best defensive center fielders in the game at that time.

Looking at Williams between the 1994 and 2003 seasons Williams was number four in runs scored trailing the leader by 166. Williams was #14 in HR and #4 in RBI trailing the leader by over 200 in both categories.

The biggest reason Murphy is not going to make the Hall is because his career did not last long enough for him to amass high enough totals for him to be judged against the other greats. Add to that his totals are also looked at agianst today's players and it makes it that much harder to elect him.

I would love to see him make it into the Hall of Fame because he was one of my favorite players and one of the biggest reasons I was drawn into the game of baseball. He was the most exciting player to watch back then.

But fifty years from now, I imagine not too many people will be talking about him. That is the biggest reason one should be elected into the hall of fame in my opinion.

[Melo]

I've always favored a small hall and like a few others it should be more than just numbers. I think that there are always players that have a huge impact on the game in their era and beyond.

[Zoso1515]

Originally Posted by jerrycapo

But fifty years from now, I imagine not too many people will be talking about him. That is the biggest reason one should be elected into the hall of fame in my opinion.

No one will talk about Hiram Bochachica in 50 years, should he be elected?

Also, RBIs and R are team dependant and not a good indicator of a players value.

OPS+ mean that it is OPS which is league and park adjusted.

OPS itself is on base percentage plus slugging percentage

[jerrycapo]

Originally Posted by Zoso1515

No one will talk about Hiram Bochachica in 50 years, should he be elected?

Also, RBIs and R are team dependant and not a good indicator of a players value.

OPS+ mean that it is OPS which is league and park adjusted.

OPS itself is on base percentage plus slugging percentage

Sorry, I meant if a player is still being talked about fifty years later he is someone who is worthy of the hall of fame. By that standard I do not believe Dale Murphy makes the Hall of Fame.

True, Runs and RBI's are team dependant, but the Braves were a lousy team most of the time Murphy was playing for them, and he still outpaced everyone. Imagine the numbers he may have put up playing for the Yankees between 1994 and 2003. I would not say they are not a good indicator of a players value. They may not be the best indicator of a players value. I would venture to guess that the players who are at the top in OPS+ are also going to find themselves at or near the top of the other categories and vice versa over a ten year span. You may be able to have a fluke season and put up good stats in a category for a year and not really be an asset to the team, but for ten years and still do that.

So I can learn a little more, you say OPS+ is league adjusted. How is that adjustment made and is that adjustment applied over different era's.

[Lazareth]

Doc Gooden and Darryl Strawberry should be in.

[His Own Bad Self]

Originally Posted by jerrycapo

So I can learn a little more, you say OPS+ is league adjusted. How is that adjustment made and is that adjustment applied over different era's.

This is from the batting glossary page on baseballreference.com - "how the adjustment is made". It can be applied to any player in any year, AFAIK.

Adjusted OPS+

This value is calculated differently from the Total Baseball PRO+ statistic. I chose OPS+ to make this difference more clear. PRO+ as best I can tell is

PRO+ = 100 * ( OBP/lgOBP + SLG/lgSLG - 1)/BPF

Where lgOBP and lgSLG are the slugging and on-base percentage of a league-average player, and BPF is the batting park factor. This takes into account the difference in runs scored in a team's home and road games, so it doesn't depend on how good an offense or defense a team has.
My method is slightly more complicated, but I think it is more correct. The BPF is set up for runs and the way it is implemented in PRO+ applies it to something other than runs.

1. My method
2. Compute the runs created for the league with pitchers removed (basic form) RC = (H + BB + HBP)*(TB)/(AB + BB + HBP + SF)
3. Adjust this by the park factor RC' = RC*BPF
4. Assume that if hits increase in a park, that BB, HBP, TB increase at the some proportion.
5. Assume that Outs = AB - H (more or less) do not change at all as outs are finite.
6. Compute the number of H, BB, HBP, TB needed to produce RC', involves the quadratic formula. The idea for this came from the Willie Davis player comment in the Bill James New Historical Baseball Abstract. I think some others, including Clay Davenport have done some similar things.
7. Using these adjusted values compute what the league average player would have hit lgOBP*, lgSLG* in a park.
8. Take OPS+ = 100 * (OBP/lgOBP* + SLG/lgSLG* - 1)
9. Note, in my database, I don't store lgSLG, but store lgTB and similarly for lgOBP and lg(Times on Base), this makes calculation of career OPS+ much easier.

[Zoso1515]

Originally Posted by jerrycapo

Sorry, I meant if a player is still being talked about fifty years later he is someone who is worthy of the hall of fame. By that standard I do not believe Dale Murphy makes the Hall of Fame.

True, Runs and RBI's are team dependant, but the Braves were a lousy team most of the time Murphy was playing for them, and he still outpaced everyone. Imagine the numbers he may have put up playing for the Yankees between 1994 and 2003. I would not say they are not a good indicator of a players value. They may not be the best indicator of a players value. I would venture to guess that the players who are at the top in OPS+ are also going to find themselves at or near the top of the other categories and vice versa over a ten year span. You may be able to have a fluke season and put up good stats in a category for a year and not really be an asset to the team, but for ten years and still do that.

So I can learn a little more, you say OPS+ is league adjusted. How is that adjustment made and is that adjustment applied over different era's.

I'd say Murphy is a Hall of Famer. His best five seasons by OPS+ are 156, 151, 150 149, 142. Six WARP3 Seasons of 9.2 or better.

For reference, Billy Williams was elected into the Hall of Fame in 1987 with 86% percent of the vote. His top five seasons by OPS were 170, 157, 147, 147, 142 and had six seasons of 8.9 or better in WARP3.

Their peaks are very comparable but Williams had a better career.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/ab....shtml#opsplus

[darkhorse]

Originally Posted by GForce

How much do you factor World Series rings and MVP awards for modern players?

GH

How many HOF'ers have been the best player in baseball five seasons?

I'm not gonna check, but I'll bet a pile of money your ten fingers will be more than sufficient to the task of counting.

[darkhorse]

Originally Posted by GForce

Like I said, I think Gossage should be in. But at their best, I take Sutter.

Lee Smith, however, rates nowhere near this equation

GH

Smith is a better candidate than Sutter, who is one of the most wretched selections evah. Sutter looks like a Frankie Frisch era Vet Committee choice in the awfulness of his inclusion.

[KC]

Who is Bill King?

[jerrycapo]

Originally Posted by KC

Who is Bill King?

These guys are all Bill King :

Bill King More Information
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Redding, CT
Add to Address Book, Map (203) 938-3111

Bill King More Information
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Mount Olive, AL
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Clinton, ME
Add to Address Book, Map (207) 426-9477

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Stockton, CA
Add to Address Book, Map (209) 478-5229

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Add to Address Book, Map (209) 524-4114

[The Professor]

Originally Posted by KC

Who is Bill King?

Legendary Bay Area announcer and cultural renaissance man: he loved the opera and Russian ballet. He was the voice of the Oakland Raiders during their glory years in the 1970s, the voice of the Golden State Warriors during the same period (and perhaps the finest basketball Play-by-play man ever) and the voice of the Oakland A's from 1981 until his untimely death in 2005. I'm not sure there has ever been one broadcaster who shared King's ability to work at an elite level in three different sports.

He looked a bit like the devil, had a terrific - and instantly recognizable - voice, and was just an amazing, amazing, character.



I'm not sure I'd consider him a "snub". He was a finalist for the Broadcasters Wing of the HOF after he died, but didn't win. He'll get in eventually - he's on a short-list of professional broadcasters who deserves recognition in at least three different sports' Hall of Fame.

[Green & Gold Heart]

Holy Toledo!

[Scoman]

I think Joe Jackson,Ken Williams first 30-30 man,Charlie Keller 43rd alltime OPS,Dick Allen 42nd alltime SLG ,all deserve to be in the hall.

[mikev]

Originally Posted by The Professor

Legendary Bay Area announcer and cultural renaissance man: he loved the opera and Russian ballet. He was the voice of the Oakland Raiders during their glory years in the 1970s, the voice of the Golden State Warriors during the same period (and perhaps the finest basketball Play-by-play man ever) and the voice of the Oakland A's from 1981 until his untimely death in 2005. I'm not sure there has ever been one broadcaster who shared King's ability to work at an elite level in three different sports.

He looked a bit like the devil, had a terrific - and instantly recognizable - voice, and was just an amazing, amazing, character.

Attachment 69549

I'm not sure I'd consider him a "snub". He was a finalist for the Broadcasters Wing of the HOF after he died, but didn't win. He'll get in eventually - he's on a short-list of professional broadcasters who deserves recognition in at least three different sports' Hall of Fame.

Yes, that.

He should be in all 3 of baseball, basketball, and football's hall of fames.

[mikev]

Originally Posted by Green & Gold Heart

Holy Toledo!

We still put up the "HOLY" sign in left field, and the "TOLEDO" sign in right field.

A bunch of people signed them and then they were laminated.

I really, really wish King would have been able to call last season. He deserved to broadcast the ALDS sweep of the Twins.

[marc]

Originally Posted by Scoman

I think Joe Jackson,Ken Williams first 30-30 man,Charlie Keller 43rd alltime OPS,Dick Allen 42nd alltime SLG ,all deserve to be in the hall.

Eventually, the day will come when Pete Rose is put in the Hall, at that point I'm going to come on here and go on the biggest rant that these forums have ever seen because Joe Jackson will still be left out.

[magnet]

Blyleven is mine. Jim Kaat should be in too if Wells ends up getting in (science forbid).