Your Hall of Fame Snub - Page 4

darkhorse · 10-17-2006, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

Also, I wouldn't say that either the National Association or the NL in 1876 were exactly "major" leagues.

They were each the best league in the land. Pretty much the definition of "major."

Luis_Rivera · 10-17-2006, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkhorse

They were each the best league in the land. Pretty much the definition of "major."

I'm not going to go round and round on this, but my only counter to that would be that just because something is the "best" at a time doesn't make it relatively the same talent level as what we today would consider a major league. There's many other mitigating factors.

The bigger point that I'd drive home is the one you neglected to answer... how can a guy whose career was effectively over by age 27 be considered a snub for the HoF?

By that logic, Smokey Joe Wood is a similar snub.

darkhorse · 10-17-2006, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

So? Injury ended Tony Oliva's effectiveness as well. Is Tony Oliva in the Hall?

Ehh.......I don't remember saying that it should.

Barnes was dominant for a time. A period of excellence equal in length to that of Koufax's run during the sixties, and better.

darkhorse · 10-17-2006, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

The bigger point that I'd drive home is the one you neglected to answer... how can a guy whose career was effectively over by age 27 be considered a snub for the HoF?

I'd have voted in ARod for what he accomplished by age 27.

And, so would you.

Luis_Rivera · 10-17-2006, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkhorse

I'd have voted in ARod for what he accomplished by age 27.

And, so would you.

ARod through his age 26 season != Barnes through his age 26 season

...and even then I'm not so sure I would.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

darkhorse · 10-17-2006, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

ARod through his age 26 season != Barnes through his age 26 season

...and even then I'm not so sure I would.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

That's o.k. Bill James was wrong too.

darkhorse · 10-17-2006, 02:07 PM

Ross Barnes starred on league champions five of the six years of his prime. He was the MVP of his league, if there had been such an award at that time, in five of those six years. Good enough for me.

KC · 01-14-2007, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkhorse

Ross Barnes starred on league champions five of the six years of his prime. He was the MVP of his league, if there had been such an award at that time, in five of those six years. Good enough for me.

Wasn't Ross Barnes the guy who was able to masse the ball into foul territory for base hits, before they changed the foul ball rule? Talented, but not Hall of Fame material.

Zoso1515 · 01-14-2007, 03:31 PM

Dave Concepcion of the 88 OPS+ got 1 more vote than Alan Trammell. I hate baseball.

His Own Bad Self · 01-14-2007, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lastplaneout

I've always thought that the HOF nomination is an honor in and of itself and could be used to recognize those players that didn't achieve greatness, but still did something really special. Jim Abbot, Julio Franco, Jesse Orosco, etc.

Isn't that what the Hall of Fame Museum is for?

Andre Dawson was my first sports hero; my first sports memories are of watching him in 1987. It would be great if he got in, but I can't honestly say that he should be in.

Ron Santo, Bert Blyleven, and Goose Gossage should have been in already.

I'm not sold on Jim Rice (the equivalent of Larry Walker - a good offensive player who played in a park that made him look better than he was) and I sure as all heck have doubts about a guy who admitted to gambling on baseball after years of denying it.

I don't know - it seems like a contradiction to say that the HoF isn't "the Hall of WARP" or "the Hall of Numbers" and then say that Pete Rose should automatically be in the Hall. Induction into the Hall of Fame, the game's highest honor, seems like it should be very difficult to gain and awfully easy to lose. Sure, once you're in, you're in, but...

GForce · 01-14-2007, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KurtBevacqua

Rich Gossage. Better than Sutter for a longer period of time. Arguable between he and Fingers as the best closer of the era (70's).

ERA+

Gossage career (top 3): 126 (246, 212, 193)
Sutter career (top 3): 136 (327, 226, 185)

I have no problem with Gossage getting in, in fact I thoroughly support it, but I don't think he was better than Sutter.

GH

GForce · 01-14-2007, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkhorse

Ross Barnes starred on league champions five of the six years of his prime. He was the MVP of his league, if there had been such an award at that time, in five of those six years. Good enough for me.

How much do you factor World Series rings and MVP awards for modern players?

GH

Zoso1515 · 01-14-2007, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GForce

How much do you factor World Series rings and MVP awards for modern players?

GH

Right next to Intangibles, Grit, Marketability and 6548979845987 spots ahead of OPS+

The Professor · 01-14-2007, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GForce

ERA+

Gossage career (top 3): 126 (246, 212, 193)
Sutter career (top 3): 136 (327, 226, 185)

I have no problem with Gossage getting in, in fact I thoroughly support it, but I don't think he was better than Sutter.

GH

Gossage: 246,212,193, 180, 180, 173, 173 and that ignores the 465 in 1981 (albeit with not quite 50 IP)

Sutter: 327,226,185,149,143,136,127

Sutter had one superior peak season, but Gossage was almost as good and was better for longer. And those Sutter ERA+'s don't fall during his injury plagued decline in Atlanta.

Sutter won a CY. Gossage probably deserved a CY or MVP in 1980.

Gossage was better, IMO.

Lastplaneout · 01-14-2007, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdawgsenior

Isn't that what the Hall of Fame Museum is for?

Andre Dawson was my first sports hero; my first sports memories are of watching him in 1987. It would be great if he got in, but I can't honestly say that he should be in.

Ron Santo, Bert Blyleven, and Goose Gossage should have been in already.

I'm not sold on Jim Rice (the equivalent of Larry Walker - a good offensive player who played in a park that made him look better than he was) and I sure as all heck have doubts about a guy who admitted to gambling on baseball after years of denying it.

I don't know - it seems like a contradiction to say that the HoF isn't "the Hall of WARP" or "the Hall of Numbers" and then say that Pete Rose should automatically be in the Hall. Induction into the Hall of Fame, the game's highest honor, seems like it should be very difficult to gain and awfully easy to lose. Sure, once you're in, you're in, but...

I'm not saying that the players I mentioned (Jim Abbot, Julio Franco, etc.) should get in, just that being placed on the ballot is a nice recognition of their unique, but not hall-worthy, accomplishments.

molarmite · 01-14-2007, 09:12 PM

Why Blyleven is not in, I will never figure out.

Jordan · 01-14-2007, 09:23 PM

It's a shame no one who has money to throw around would think to come up with some sort of hall for guys like Minnie Minoso, Orosco, Abbott, Franco, etc.

I know I would if I was a rich man with money

mikev · 01-14-2007, 10:46 PM

Bill King. It will be my heartfelt believe that he is the biggest snub ever until he is placed in the broadcasting wing.

Also, what are people's thoughts on Albert Belle?

The Professor · 01-14-2007, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikev

Bill King. It will be my heartfelt believe that he is the biggest snub ever until he is placed in the broadcasting wing.

Also, what are people's thoughts on Albert Belle?

He'll [King] get there eventually. Count on it.

mikev · 01-14-2007, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Professor

He'll [King] get there eventually. Count on it.

As of now he is the biggest snub ever.

01-14-2007, 09:12 PM	#76
molarmite Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 4,927	Why Blyleven is not in, I will never figure out. __________________ From the wise mind of Davey Eckstein "Now all you need is a signature. A quote or initial, perhaps." [

01-14-2007, 10:46 PM	#78
mikev Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 4,014	Bill King. It will be my heartfelt believe that he is the biggest snub ever until he is placed in the broadcasting wing. Also, what are people's thoughts on Albert Belle? __________________ Global Unified Baseball Association - Vice Commish and Oakland Oaks GM

10-17-2006, 02:07 PM	#67
darkhorse Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: fort worth, tx Posts: 10,850	Ross Barnes starred on league champions five of the six years of his prime. He was the MVP of his league, if there had been such an award at that time, in five of those six years. Good enough for me.

01-14-2007, 03:31 PM	#69
Zoso1515 Banned Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 507 Infractions: 0/2 (2)	Dave Concepcion of the 88 OPS+ got 1 more vote than Alan Trammell. I hate baseball.

01-14-2007, 09:23 PM	#77
Jordan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Chi Suburbs now... Posts: 2,013	It's a shame no one who has money to throw around would think to come up with some sort of hall for guys like Minnie Minoso, Orosco, Abbott, Franco, etc. I know I would if I was a rich man with money