My Team Must Be Tired

PyroFalkon · 01-10-2007, 07:51 AM

The guys really earned their paychecks tonight. Of course, they're minor leaguers, so they really earned nothing. Ha!

I'm the Chandler manager, but although we lost, it must have been a heck of a game. Although, the bottom picture shows the pitchers' box scores, and I think there was something VERY wrong in-game. Stupid AI managers...

Terpripken · 01-10-2007, 07:58 AM

Theisen was a little wild...but had only thrown 64 pitches thru 4. AI shoulda left him in.

Poor Hendricks LOL 16 IP!!!!!!!

Assos · 01-10-2007, 10:30 AM

Looks like you ran out of rested pitchers and players. Wow!

Bluenoser · 01-10-2007, 11:06 AM

211 pitches - wow, did you check to see if his arm is still attached?

zekester91 · 01-10-2007, 12:57 PM

Without knowing what Theisen endurance ratings where it would be hard to know if the AI pulled him too soon. Wildness could have been a sign that he was overly tired. Nor from can we see if he was injured or just pitch hit for.

I do have a question though for those of you that are more knowable than me in the scoring area. how does Ramirez get a blown save when there would have been no pitcher of record when he came it. He did not come into a save situation, nor even if he held the lead would he have been able to get a save?

Curtis · 01-10-2007, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zekester91

How does Ramirez get a blown save when there would have been no pitcher of record when he came it. He did not come into a save situation, nor even if he held the lead would he have been able to get a save?

If he hadn't blown the lead, he would have been the pitcher of record with the win. What would you call it? A blown hold? I think holds have the same criteria as saves. There is the save criterion that a guy who pitches well for three innings and doesn't blow the lead gets a save if no one else qualifies for one. Obviously Ramirez didn't go three, but did he blow it because he was unable to go three? I dunno. "It is a puzzlement."

zekester91 · 01-10-2007, 01:14 PM

I was just wondering, I would have given him a ND as he was never the pitcher of record. I only give BS to people who come into the game in save situations, on wikipedia it has BS as being defined as:

Quote:

A blown save (abbreviated BS) is charged to a pitcher who enters a game in a situation which permits him to earn a save (a 'save situation'), but who instead allows the tying run to score. Note that if the tying run was scored by a runner who was already on base when the new pitcher entered the game, that new pitcher will be charged with a blown save even though the run (and earned run) will not be charged to the new pitcher, but rather to the pitcher who allowed that runner to reach base.

Since he didn't enter the game at a point where he was eligible for a save, I don't see how he could get a BS. I was just wondering what other people thought, as I still see scoring as very open ended, and everyone would and does do things diffrently.

Bluenoser · 01-10-2007, 02:23 PM

I'm going to make a guess at what the scorer did here, and I could be very wrong.

Ramirez came in and pitched a perfect bottom of the 5th, 3 up, 3 down. Since a game can be considered complete after 5 innings (such as a rainout or other delay) it was considered a save situation. He then faces 2 batters in the bottom of the 6th, giving up the tieing run on Thompson's 2 run homer. Thus the blown save.

Like I said, I'm just speculating here though and could be wrong.

zekester91 · 01-10-2007, 02:32 PM

it's a pretty good interpitation, but who in that situation would have gotten the win. Theisen only pitched 4 innnings, under most situations, not pitching 5 innnings will eliminate you from reciving a win.

Although since weather is not a factor in the game, I would also wonder why the scorer would even know what weather is having never seen any.

I'm not saying the game did it wrong, I've just been wondering what quilifies as a BS in the game. I've seen a lot of situations where I've dissagreed with the game over awarding a BS, but since it's not an offical stat and something I only look at for closers it's never been something worth asking about, but with a clear example above I'd thought I'd see what others would say about the stat.

Curtis · 01-10-2007, 04:40 PM

If you enter with a lead and lose that lead, you've blown something. I agree that there should be some definition of what Markus considers to be a blown save. The example in this thread seems to fit an intuitive definition, but it occurs to me that in a game with multiple lead changes and multiple pitching substitutions this intuitive definition could result in two or more blown saves being doled out to one staff in one game.

zekester91 · 01-10-2007, 05:22 PM

he did blown something but to my knowage Baseball has yet to come up with a stat for that. My reading of the stat is to get a blown save you first have to be in line to get a save which is difined as:

Quote:

In baseball statistics the term save (abbreviated SV or S) is used to indicate the successful maintenance of a lead by a relief pitcher, usually the closer, until the end of the game. A save is credited to a pitcher who fulfills the following three conditions:

The pitcher is the last pitcher in a game won by his team;
The pitcher is not the winning pitcher (for instance, if a starting pitcher throws a complete game win or, alternatively, if the pitcher gets a blown save and then his team scores a winning run while he is the pitcher of record, sometimes known as a "vulture win");
The pitcher fulfills at least one of the following three conditions:
He comes into the game with a lead of no more than three runs.
He comes into the game with the potential tying run being either on base, at bat, or on deck.
He pitches for at least three innings after entering the game with a lead.

Since he didn't quilify for the save, he can not have blown a save. I'm pretty sure I've have seen the game give multible blown saves in a game, along with pitchers who come after the person getting a blown save, getting holds. Maybe my reading of the rule is wrong.

ForemanFan · 01-10-2007, 10:42 PM

F. Ontireros C

AB 10
R 0
H 0
RBI 0
LOB 12

Your catcher deserves to be hung by the neck 'til dead. That linescore is a little bit beyond obscenely pathetic, haha. Twleve out of the 19 baserunners for Chandler were left stranded as a result of his flaccid bat -- oh the agony! Time to start practicing hitting off a tee again.

EDIT: Hey, on the bright side, he didn't K a single time. Now that's something to feel good about.

Curtis · 01-11-2007, 02:38 AM

"The pitcher is not the winning pitcher (for instance,… if the pitcher gets a blown save and then his team scores a winning run while he is the pitcher of record, sometimes known as a "vulture win");"

By this definition it MUST be possible to get a blown save in a circumstance when it is not possible to get a save. It says there (and thank you for finding that) that one pitcher can be 'credited' with a blown save and a later pitcher from the same team can be credited with a save in the same game.

zekester91 · 01-11-2007, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curtis

"The pitcher is not the winning pitcher (for instance,… if the pitcher gets a blown save and then his team scores a winning run while he is the pitcher of record, sometimes known as a "vulture win");"

By this definition it MUST be possible to get a blown save in a circumstance when it is not possible to get a save. It says there (and thank you for finding that) that one pitcher can be 'credited' with a blown save and a later pitcher from the same team can be credited with a save in the same game.

True a pitching staff could have the situation where playing at road, where a starting pitcher pitches 8 innings leaves the game with his team winning, the closer comes in blows the lead making the game tied, he would get a blown save, the starter would get a ND, they could then score on the top of the inning giving the closer the win, and they could bring in a second closer who gets the save, I get that.

I don't get your leap how that says that it must be possible to get a BS in circumstance when it is not possible to get a save. It seems to me that it is to be in a save situation to get a blown save.

Curtis · 01-12-2007, 12:19 AM

zekester, you've convinced me. My argument was based on this quote from the definition of a save you supplied above: "A save is credited to a pitcher who fulfills the following three conditions:

The pitcher is the last pitcher in a game won by his team;
The pitcher is not the winning pitcher (for instance,…"

In your example in the post immediately preceding this one (which was the exact example I came up with when debating it with myself), the first relief pitcher is NOT the last pitcher in the game for his team, but he still earns a blown save. Since you have to be last pitcher to earn a save, I thought "Ipso facto, a guy can get a BS when he couldn't get an S."

That reasoning is looking pretty indefensible right now.

Vris · 01-12-2007, 10:50 AM

Ramirez would've gotten the win had he not given up the homerun. He lost the lead, thus the blown save. I know it doesn't make sense, but if this happened in the 8th inning instead of the 6th, it would be the same ruling. That's why wins and saves are such arbitrary stats.

Put it this way, if Ramirez came in and pitched scoreless ball and Chandler won, he would've been eligible for a save (if Theison had gone the minimum). I think the confusion lies there: Theison wasn't eligible for a win, so who is Ramirez saving the game for, himself? Well, yeah. Ramirez would've gotten the win, not the save, in the situation outlined above. However, since he blew the lead, he blew the chance at a win (and there is no stat for blown wins) so it's credited as a blown save.

01-10-2007, 07:51 AM	#1
PyroFalkon Minors (Triple A) Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 230	My Team Must Be Tired The guys really earned their paychecks tonight. Of course, they're minor leaguers, so they really earned nothing. Ha! I'm the Chandler manager, but although we lost, it must have been a heck of a game. Although, the bottom picture shows the pitchers' box scores, and I think there was something VERY wrong in-game. Stupid AI managers... Attached Images __________________ ~PF

01-10-2007, 02:32 PM	#9
zekester91 All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,122	it's a pretty good interpitation, but who in that situation would have gotten the win. Theisen only pitched 4 innnings, under most situations, not pitching 5 innnings will eliminate you from reciving a win. Although since weather is not a factor in the game, I would also wonder why the scorer would even know what weather is having never seen any. I'm not saying the game did it wrong, I've just been wondering what quilifies as a BS in the game. I've seen a lot of situations where I've dissagreed with the game over awarding a BS, but since it's not an offical stat and something I only look at for closers it's never been something worth asking about, but with a clear example above I'd thought I'd see what others would say about the stat. Last edited by zekester91; 01-10-2007 at 02:34 PM. Reason: Added sentence about weather

01-10-2007, 10:42 PM	#12
ForemanFan Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles (Heaven -- pfffft!) Posts: 201	F. Ontireros C AB 10 R 0 H 0 RBI 0 LOB 12 Your catcher deserves to be hung by the neck 'til dead. That linescore is a little bit beyond obscenely pathetic, haha. Twleve out of the 19 baserunners for Chandler were left stranded as a result of his flaccid bat -- oh the agony! Time to start practicing hitting off a tee again. EDIT: Hey, on the bright side, he didn't K a single time. Now that's something to feel good about. __________________ The best lack all conviction, while the worst are filled with a passionate intensity. George is comin' back. . . again! Last edited by ForemanFan; 01-10-2007 at 10:45 PM.

01-12-2007, 10:50 AM	#16
Vris Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: somewhere where I don't know where I am Posts: 3,251	Ramirez would've gotten the win had he not given up the homerun. He lost the lead, thus the blown save. I know it doesn't make sense, but if this happened in the 8th inning instead of the 6th, it would be the same ruling. That's why wins and saves are such arbitrary stats. Put it this way, if Ramirez came in and pitched scoreless ball and Chandler won, he would've been eligible for a save (if Theison had gone the minimum). I think the confusion lies there: Theison wasn't eligible for a win, so who is Ramirez saving the game for, himself? Well, yeah. Ramirez would've gotten the win, not the save, in the situation outlined above. However, since he blew the lead, he blew the chance at a win (and there is no stat for blown wins) so it's credited as a blown save. __________________ None Blog it.

01-10-2007, 07:58 AM	#2
Terpripken All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Safety Harbor, FL Posts: 1,525	Theisen was a little wild...but had only thrown 64 pitches thru 4. AI shoulda left him in. Poor Hendricks LOL 16 IP!!!!!!!

01-10-2007, 10:30 AM	#3
Assos All Star Starter Join Date: May 2004 Location: Just on the fair side of the foul pole! Posts: 1,772	Looks like you ran out of rested pitchers and players. Wow!

01-10-2007, 11:06 AM	#4
Bluenoser Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In The Moment Posts: 14,183	211 pitches - wow, did you check to see if his arm is still attached?

01-10-2007, 12:57 PM	#5
zekester91 All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,122	Without knowing what Theisen endurance ratings where it would be hard to know if the AI pulled him too soon. Wildness could have been a sign that he was overly tired. Nor from can we see if he was injured or just pitch hit for. I do have a question though for those of you that are more knowable than me in the scoring area. how does Ramirez get a blown save when there would have been no pitcher of record when he came it. He did not come into a save situation, nor even if he held the lead would he have been able to get a save?

01-10-2007, 02:23 PM	#8
Bluenoser Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In The Moment Posts: 14,183	I'm going to make a guess at what the scorer did here, and I could be very wrong. Ramirez came in and pitched a perfect bottom of the 5th, 3 up, 3 down. Since a game can be considered complete after 5 innings (such as a rainout or other delay) it was considered a save situation. He then faces 2 batters in the bottom of the 6th, giving up the tieing run on Thompson's 2 run homer. Thus the blown save. Like I said, I'm just speculating here though and could be wrong.

01-10-2007, 04:40 PM	#10
Curtis Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Watertown, New York Posts: 4,567	If you enter with a lead and lose that lead, you've blown something. I agree that there should be some definition of what Markus considers to be a blown save. The example in this thread seems to fit an intuitive definition, but it occurs to me that in a game with multiple lead changes and multiple pitching substitutions this intuitive definition could result in two or more blown saves being doled out to one staff in one game.

01-11-2007, 02:38 AM	#13
Curtis Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Watertown, New York Posts: 4,567	"The pitcher is not the winning pitcher (for instance,… if the pitcher gets a blown save and then his team scores a winning run while he is the pitcher of record, sometimes known as a "vulture win");" By this definition it MUST be possible to get a blown save in a circumstance when it is not possible to get a save. It says there (and thank you for finding that) that one pitcher can be 'credited' with a blown save and a later pitcher from the same team can be credited with a save in the same game.

01-12-2007, 12:19 AM	#15
Curtis Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Watertown, New York Posts: 4,567	zekester, you've convinced me. My argument was based on this quote from the definition of a save you supplied above: "A save is credited to a pitcher who fulfills the following three conditions: The pitcher is the last pitcher in a game won by his team; The pitcher is not the winning pitcher (for instance,…" In your example in the post immediately preceding this one (which was the exact example I came up with when debating it with myself), the first relief pitcher is NOT the last pitcher in the game for his team, but he still earns a blown save. Since you have to be last pitcher to earn a save, I thought "Ipso facto, a guy can get a BS when he couldn't get an S." That reasoning is looking pretty indefensible right now.