Version 2007 : Community Concerns for Focus

[endgame]

No doubt the reaction to my originating this thread will be mixed with those annoyed, uncaring, diametrically opposed, and grateful for the avenue of communication. That's the world of OOTP, always coupled with its diversity and relatively cyclical predictability.

To the point. Beta testing has commenced, to the best of my knowledge, and while many of us have taken time to post specific incidents for correction or improvement, aside from PSUColonel's "Opinon on the Future of OOTP" thread, many comments that address overall concerns or suggestions regarding the thrust and focus of the next generation of Out of the Park are usually buried in unrelated dialogue within a thread; not captured or isolated in any one place for hopeful review and consideration by the beta, developing, and marketing teams.

That said, villainous as it may seem, it is with the best of intentions to offer up this thread - not for specific gripes, occurences, or any opportunity to launch a bitch session - but to provide comment well before release, while people are involved in examining the game, to state or restate primary considerations for the focus of change and improvement in v2007, and perhaps beyond.

Way too much reaction takes place post-release. In the aftermath many elements are over-reactions, knee-jerks, or melodrama - some with merit and validity - but lost in the mushroom cloud by both the community and those who seek to quiet the storm or initiate plans for change. Even plans to placate disenchantments can be inadvertantly delivered in kind in knee-jerk, over-reactive, or a misplaced accomodating patches. The process doesn't bode will without proactive and consolidated discussion.

This beta-team, led by battists and Markus, are excellent listeners. Now is the time to establish community themes for focus that can be compared, contrasted, and integrated into the schemes with which they are already at work. Let's do so. I'll provide the following seeds.

<TABLE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5px" cellSpacing=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=sqtdq colSpan=2>“That is why, no matter how desperate the predicament is, I am always very much in earnest about clutching my cane, straightening my derby hat and fixing my tie, even though I have just landed on my head.” ---- Charlie Chaplin

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

... it just seems as though many of the issues that I feel need top priority don't get talked about much here. I do start discussions, but no one seems to want to either 1) talk about them, because they don't understand them or 2) people want to ignore them and pretend as though they aren't there. There are SO SO many issues with this game's AI that it just isn't funny. I guess what I am saying is, that this community needs to be focused on helping to fix PRIORITY issues, before worrying about things like play by play wording. I guess what I am saying is that this community is always excited by cosmetics, but rarely wants to look under the hood of the game to really see what is going on ... AI issues have always been a weakness of OOTP ... continue seeing the same issues present from version to version over the years.

Originally Posted by battists

... the developers and beta team are all working hard to look at issues throughout the game.

... If ... you would like to start another thread to discuss a particular aspect of the game that isn't working, that would be great. It's my experience that doing so in a positive way...will generate a ... productive thread

Originally Posted by endgame

Quote:
Originally Posted by endgame
... all transactions compliant and consistent (as is feasible) with a working MLB model of those transaction types (even in fictional settings) ...

Granted, a total rewrite negates the idea of the "legacy bug", however if the issues remain consistently in the same arenas over the development of a series -- as much respect as I have for Markus -- then they become easily construed as legacy design decisions or designer limitations.

Originally Posted by endgame

... in response to PSU ... I have no doubt that the game will evolve into a premier baseball simulation, the pinnacle of that success will be ultimately measured by, IMHO, the influence of at least these elements:

1) Markus' determination to bring the game core into adherence with an MLB working model by default according to its rules and transactions that easily translates to a reliable, fictional base relying on a real-world framework, familiarity, and expectation level right out of the box.

2) Markus' determination to once and for all, with the assistance of a very talented group of beta associates -- including some who, in my estimation, excel in tangible, systemic evaluations -- eliminate those recurrent issues consistently targeted with discontent for the reason I cited above, if for no other.

3) SI's and Markus' cooperative efforts to continue the growth of the game's complexity and sophistication - including its optional difficulty levels from the user's perspective - with a willingness to concede the ambition must inherently decide a preference for its broadest, future audience base OR insisting it cling to all clientle, ensure that every single implemenation works effectively across that schemata; not simply placate individual factions in order to preserve unilateral loyalty to the detriment of overall function and quality

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[Twelvefield]

I'm not sure I follow your whole post. It's kind of late, and I am tired, and you have a lot of 25-cent words in play.

However, I am game to take a stab at this.

On a very big, overview level, I wonder at the direction OOTPB will take. I guess Duffy would be the best one to say. He's mentioned stuff like sound and enhanced graphics, which I think are great ideas. However, I personally think a lot of that is beyond Markus' pay grade. He's not really an audio engineer nor an animator.

I think that for OOTPB to really break out, SI will have to loosen the purse strings and hire some more professional talent to boost the game past the hard-core simmer crowd we all know and are.

Of course that would mean that OOTPB would become less of a Markus Heinsohn game and more of an SI/SEGA corporate game. Would that be of benefit to us, or would it make the product worse? Put another way, how long can we expect Markus, Aurelio, Andreas, Duffy and the rest to keep putting out OOTPB for us? 10 years? 5? 3? 1? God forbid, what if something happened to Markus (well, for the sake of argument, let's say he wins one of those El Gordo Spanish lotteries, with a jackpot big enough to buy an entire baseball league and play it like OOTPB), then what? Do we rely on the OOTPB community to get our sim baseball fix?

There are other baseball sims out there, and for that matter, there's a big wide world, too, beyond our digital Fenways and Polo Grounds. The end of OOTPB would not necessarily be the end of the world, although I would mourn the loss. Still, I would feel better knowing that steps are being taken to preserve the OOTPB line, and that real professional artists and programmers are ready to shoulder their burden in the ongoing development of our game, above and beyond the talented amateur mod community.

[Go Middies]

I wonder about the direction of OOTP considering EHM and its existence. EHM 05 was magnificent but I can't get into this year's at all. It's almost like OOTP 6.5 and 2006. But I think that digression is a little OT.

If OOTP could become something like EHM it'd be a great game. I started playing OOTP again the other day with a clear head after a while of letting it sit on the HD. The same problems and omissions hit me like last time: no player 'screw ups' that make you think about what to do (suspensions, demotions, etc.), no being able to praise a player for his ROTY season or something like that, no owner coming down on you for starting 11-25 with a bloated roster, etc.

I know I'm in the minority but 2006 is a step back from 6.5. I enjoyed 6.5 much more than this version. The game play, although expanded, takes *forever* to play a game and the PbP is choppy to say the least. This all being said, it's light years ahead of anything else for baseball, IIRC.

[dashby]

For this to not be interpreted as cynicism will be a miracle but, since this is a forum full of subjective folks with subjective opinions I'll go. It was really Twelvefield's post that inspired me:

I wonder at the direction OOTPB will take

It is my opinion OOTP 2006 was the last uncharted waters Markus's professional abilities would allow him to sail (I really mean it when I say no offense). He ambitiously embarked on a rebuild of a text-based computer game and created another text-based computer game. Albeit, one much fatter, busier, and, yes, buggier. I liked the look and aestethic appeal of 2006 but, the playability did not favorably compare to previous less involved versions.

Once again, in my opinion, (and it's prob been said before) 2006 was a giant step forward in some ways but, a disappointing step backward in others (reality of simulation). So, my point, I suppose is all OOTP 2007 could possibly be is a clean up of unaddressed issues in the last version.

The only way for the OOTP line to evolve is through the effective use of neo-gaming graphics and audio. I do not believe Markus wants to take this on by himself (it would require a team of specialists in their relevant fields). With that said, IMHO, the OOTP has run its course. Don't shamelessly keep adding a few fixes and token novelties every year, just to suck another versions worth of bucks out of us gullible customers. Let it die.

[mikev]

I really wonder why people pine for graphics and sound and animation in a TEXT BASED SIM.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Go Middies

I wonder about the direction of OOTP considering EHM and its existence. EHM 05 was magnificent but I can't get into this year's at all. It's almost like OOTP 6.5 and 2006. But I think that digression is a little OT.

If OOTP could become something like EHM it'd be a great game. I started playing OOTP again the other day with a clear head after a while of letting it sit on the HD. The same problems and omissions hit me like last time: no player 'screw ups' that make you think about what to do (suspensions, demotions, etc.), no being able to praise a player for his ROTY season or something like that, no owner coming down on you for starting 11-25 with a bloated roster, etc.

I know I'm in the minority but 2006 is a step back from 6.5. I enjoyed 6.5 much more than this version. The game play, although expanded, takes *forever* to play a game and the PbP is choppy to say the least. This all being said, it's light years ahead of anything else for baseball, IIRC.

And yet none of the bolded things were in 6.5 or any version before. Don't you think part of the reason for teaming with SI was to add these things as the game grows?

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by dashby

For this to not be interpreted as cynicism will be a miracle but, since this is a forum full of subjective folks with subjective opinions I'll go. It was really Twelvefield's post that inspired me:

It is my opinion OOTP 2006 was the last uncharted waters Markus's professional abilities would allow him to sail (I really mean it when I say no offense). He ambitiously embarked on a rebuild of a text-based computer game and created another text-based computer game. Albeit, one much fatter, busier, and, yes, buggier. I liked the look and aestethic appeal of 2006 but, the playability did not favorably compare to previous less involved versions.

Once again, in my opinion, (and it's prob been said before) 2006 was a giant step forward in some ways but, a disappointing step backward in others (reality of simulation). So, my point, I suppose is all OOTP 2007 could possibly be is a clean up of unaddressed issues in the last version.

The only way for the OOTP line to evolve is through the effective use of neo-gaming graphics and audio. I do not believe Markus wants to take this on by himself (it would require a team of specialists in their relevant fields). With that said, IMHO, the OOTP has run its course. Don't shamelessly keep adding a few fixes and token novelties every year, just to suck another versions worth of bucks out of us gullible customers. Let it die.

I guess you won't be buying v2007?

IMHO your reporting of ootp's demise is a bit premature and a little melodramatic. Coming off a total rewrite maybe we should wait to see what the next version looks like before writing off the game.

Like my other reply (player suspensions, praising players etc) I would tend to think part of the reason of teaming with SI will be to expand the game into some kind of 2d display ala FM and EHM. Of course like these games you will have the option to not use the 2d. I would think (not a programmer so could be wrong) doing the 2d for baseball would be easier than a game that is always in motion like hockey or soccer.

[THEOVELS]

Originally Posted by mikev

I really wonder why people pine for graphics and sound and animation in a TEXT BASED SIM.

Here, here. I come from the board baseball games (sharco) where i kept all my own stats. Much to my kids' amazement, before computers and spread sheets, etc. When i started looking for a computer baseball game again, my requirements were simple. I didn't want to pitch or bat or run for everybody on my team. The last video game (sega) I had, Mark McGuire had over 100 home runs. (I never checked my fingers for steroids back then). My personal experience has shown that most baseb all games with video/graphic have basic baseball rule issues. (ex. one game allowed the run to count during an inning ending double play!)

That being said, and I have no other sim games to compare 2006 to except oopt 6.0 & 6.5, I find I enjoy 2006 with all of it's "issues". I enjoy it because I love baseball! Yes, there are plenty of options from 6.5 that I would like and hope to see in 2007, but let's be realistic, how many of us have ever found the perfect...anything!

[Go Middies]

I would have thought that some of them would have been included with this version but sadly no. I think that some of us have it in our minds that not only was 6.5 more user-friendly but also had better simulating accuracy (even with limited play options like no stealing on 2 strikes, etc.) and more of a baseball feel to it.

I come from the EHM side of things and saw OOTP as an extension of the EHM capabilities to the baseball side. Perhaps I expected too much. I even helped with some of the research for the first EHM and would have done so again if my job on a cruise line would have enabled me to. Maybe the lack of an agreement with the MLBPA hinders the game: you can't have realism without the real. I know that some say that the game doesn't recognize names but we do. I want to see Alexis Rios start to tear it up, John Smoltz pitch until he's 45, see KC reach respectability again (as if).

[toxicavenger74]

....do people pine for animations and sound for a text based sim? I totally do not understand this at all. This should be the first clue that this game isn't for you. Please go and play a console game. I realize that I'm coming across as a jerk for saying that.

A poster some time ago spelled out at length why this game should not be dumbed down and that maybe this isn't the game for everybody...I would have to agree. While I want the sales of OOTP to be high, I don't want the statistical realism of the game to be sacrificed at the expense of animation and sound.

If you don't think it will then just look at the console games, plenty of animation, graphics and sound. But this comes at the expense of minimal or rigid minor league systems, limited or incomplete stats, limited free agency, overall limited customization, etc, etc. Between those two areas I'll leave the animation and sound and take deep stats, ability to customize and everything that OOTP has delivered on in the past and hopefully in the future.

[toxicavenger74]

Originally Posted by toxicavenger74

....do people pine for animations and sound for a text based sim? I totally do not understand this at all. This should be the first clue that this game isn't for you. Please go and play a console game. I realize that I'm coming across as a jerk for saying that.

A poster some time ago spelled out at length why this game should not be dumbed down and that maybe this isn't the game for everybody...I would have to agree. While I want the sales of OOTP to be high, I don't want the statistical realism of the game to be sacrificed at the expense of animation and sound.

If you don't think it will then just look at the console games, plenty of animation, graphics and sound. But this comes at the expense of minimal or rigid minor league systems, limited or incomplete stats, limited free agency, overall limited customization, etc, etc. Between those two areas I'll leave the animation and sound and take deep stats, ability to customize and everything that OOTP has delivered on in the past and hopefully in the future.

This response of mine may be somewhat polarizing and emotional so I'll clarify. Animations, graphics, sound...all these things are not OOTP and are not the issues that I see being constantly clamoured about. The issues that need to be focused on are those baseline issues of both the "fair weather player" and the hardcore players (fictional and historical). Both types are needed and are important. The game needs an easier and more flexible setup that allows for a quick, simple start up but allows for a transition into something more time-consuming.

The simpleness will allow for more marketability to those with limited time or limited desire to get totally immersed in GMing.

[ForemanFan]

Originally Posted by toxicavenger74

....do people pine for animations and sound for a text based sim? I totally do not understand this at all. This should be the first clue that this game isn't for you. Please go and play a console game. I realize that I'm coming across as a jerk for saying that.

Not to come across as a jerk for saying this, but, yes, you came across as a jerk for saying that.

On a serious note, I'm a die-hard fan of OOTP and have been investing my meager shillings and ducats since waaaay back when (er, 2001?). I played Pursue the Pennant waaaaaay back when as well (er, 1990?). I'm a stat f-r-e-a-k! I own numerous copies of Total Baseball -- those suckers are heavy, baby! With all that said, I think it's obvious to say that I'm not just some wishy-washy fair-weather fan of the Baseball Sim industry. However. . . .

As I said recently in a that thread I started, I've fallen in love with the new technology (graphics, sound, etc.) that's being incorporated into the most modern Baseball arcade games. It still isn't enough to take me away from OOTPBB, as the inconsistencies are far too glaring regarding statistics particularly. Overall, the true-to-life gaming experience with these programs is much too limited, at least when compared to OOTP.

Now, if only the twain would meet. . . . .

[toxicavenger74]

Originally Posted by ForemanFan

Not to come across as a jerk for saying this, but, yes, you came across as a jerk for saying that.

On a serious note, I'm a die-hard fan of OOTP and have been investing my meager shillings and ducats since waaaay back when (er, 2001?). I played Pursue the Pennant waaaaaay back when as well (er, 1990?). I'm a stat f-r-e-a-k! I own numerous copies of Total Baseball -- those suckers are heavy, baby! With all that said, I think it's obvious to say that I'm not just some wishy-washy fair-weather fan of the Baseball Sim industry. However. . . .

As I said recently in a that thread I started, I've fallen in love with the new technology (graphics, sound, etc.) that's being incorporated into the most modern Baseball arcade games. It still isn't enough to take me away from OOTPBB, as the inconsistencies are far too glaring regarding statistics particularly. Overall, the true-to-life gaming experience with these programs is much too limited, at least when compared to OOTP.

Now, if only the twain would meet. . . . .

But they won't meet. The more effort that goes into non-stats etc issues, the more we are getting away from a stats based game. There are limited resources to work on these platforms. So much so that if effort is going in one direction, it is going away from something else. Animation, stats will not proceed positively in parallel. Unless, there is a huge team and then cost go up and everything will have to go through a committee decision instead of a few people deciding on what is best who have similar mind in thinking.

I may sound like a jerk for what I said earlier but it regardless it is true. So, many times I wished for 2K sports to have deeper stats, deeper everything to the point where I moved on to OOTP and have never regretted it. Your baseball knowledge and gaming sound great and your experience and input is valuable. I agree with your points in theory but having been on the design side I know OOTP would suffer if anything but interface, stats etc wasn't a priority.

[dashby]

Why do ppl keep suggesting you can't merge a graphically appealing presentation with a solid sports simulation? What I feel is even more hypocritical is ppl suggesting they wouldn't want to merge the 2. It's not only possible but, happening every day in the world of gaming software.

Let's just think about this for one moment. If you had the ability to manage your rosters, depth-charts, stats, etc just like you currently do with the OOTP line BUT, also play these games out in hi-def animation so you can visually see a real-life depiction of your strategy on your 21 inch flat-screen (or, your 50" hi-def plasma TV as far as that goes). Hear the crystal clear dolby7.1 sounds of your game being played through your surround-sound system. I'm not talking about an arcade game where you control your base-runners, outfielders, bat-swing, etc with a joystick. I'm talking about setting your lineup, defense, pitch selection, etc and then letting a graphical/audio engine take over to show you the results. I ask...WHAT'S NOT TO LIKE ABOUT THAT?

[toxicavenger74]

I didn't mean this as a negative even though it is typically used as such. If anything from a bottom line business these types of players are crucial. There are hardcore players, historical players who want exact replications but there are also those who either 1. Are going to play the game on occasion 2. Will play the game a lot but don't want or can't devote significant time everyday. The game has to market to these folks to be successful and to grow. This to me is the biggest issue. To give a simple and complex game with the flexibility to go either way at anytime to the customer.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by dashby

What I feel is even more hypocritical is ppl suggesting they wouldn't want to merge the

Why is it hypocritical that I don't want them merged? When I want to play an arcade baseball game, I play HH2004. When I want to become immersed in a text based sim with tons of stats, I play OOTP. I very much like being able to bounce between the two rather than having them all in one. I don't want them merged, period. BTW - look up the definition of hypocritical, it's a poor choice of words for what you're saying.

Originally Posted by dashby

2. It's not only possible but, happening every day in the world of gaming software.

Examples please. Specific examples of where text based sims and arcade games have been merged with success.

[Curtis]

Originally Posted by dashby

Let's just think about this for one moment. If you had the ability to manage your rosters, depth-charts, stats, etc just like you currently do with the OOTP line BUT, also play these games out in hi-def animation so you can visually see a real-life depiction of your strategy on your 21 inch flat-screen (or, your 50" hi-def plasma TV as far as that goes). Hear the crystal clear dolby7.1 sounds of your game being played through your surround-sound system. I'm talking about setting your lineup, defense, pitch selection, etc and then letting a graphical/audio engine take over to show you the results. I ask...WHAT'S NOT TO LIKE ABOUT THAT?

If it makes an already slow game even slower, that's not to like. If it makes a game I can afford more expensive, that's not to like. If it results in more bugs and a longer development time to get rid of ALMOST all of them, that's not to like. If it results in more clumsy, difficult for a non-computer genius to implement work-arounds, that's not to like. If it means more unneccessary crap I have to remember to turn off before I can play on my little 17" low-def screen with tin-can audio, that's not to like.

[dashby]

BTW - look up the definition of hypocritical, it's a poor choice of words for what you're saying

Actually, that is exactly the word I wanted to use. A hypocrite is, basically, a pretender. Also indicates someone who feigns some publicly approved attitude. Since these forums are inundated with self-proclaimed text-simmers who ridicule console gamers, yet, probably spend more time engaged in Quake, Doom, Call to Duty, or WOW then OOTP I believe it's a well chosen label.

High Heat Baseball was an amazing "arcade" game that digested and produced statistical MLB numbers much more accurately than the latest OOTP does. I'm not going to say for one minute it was as deep and diverse statistically as OOTP but, the stats it produced were more accurate over the course of a season than those in OOTP. I'm not going to offer logs of data to prove my opinion because it's not that important to me what you believe (no offense but, I see too many folks spending too many hours trying to get fodder to support their arguments). Unfortunately, the HH line met its demise long before we could see its true potential.

[Elendil]

Originally Posted by dashby

High Heat Baseball was an amazing "arcade" game that digested and produced statistical MLB numbers much more accurately than the latest OOTP does. I'm not going to say for one minute it was as deep and diverse statistically as OOTP but, the stats it produced were more accurate over the course of a season than those in OOTP.

Sorry, but that's f'ing ridiculous. High Heat Baseball was statistically terrible, had wildly unrealistic trading, drafting, and player development models, and was, in every way that I care about, vastly inferior to all versions of OOTP, going back to 1.

[Elendil]

Originally Posted by Elendil

Sorry, but that's f'ing ridiculous. High Heat Baseball was statistically terrible, had wildly unrealistic trading, drafting, and player development models, and was, in every way that I care about, vastly inferior to all versions of OOTP, going back to 1.

Oh, and I almost forgot. No free agency or financials in High Heat either. Chortle.