A warning to all online leagues out there about a cheating owner - Page 2

jdw · 11-20-2006, 01:34 PM

There are ways around that if one wanted to put the effort into it. In fact, it would take very little effort since many of us have two IPs - home and work. One would just need to track in their head that GM/Owner A logs in at home and is a "prolific" participant, while GM/Owner B logs in at work and does very little posting.

I'm not sure if Commishes have on the back end something that tracks the IP address that exports are uploaded from. That *likely* would be the best way from something like this to be tackled from - someone designing Commish-side a log of the IPs that teams export from. While it's possible that people have the game on both their home and work machines, or that they have a laptop/docking station that they use for it at home and work, that's a little iffy. I, for example, was a rather prolific poster with TWB both at home and work, but only exported from home where I had the game. A logging feature would catch a second team if I socko'd one.

Perhaps that's a feature already in the tools that Commish's use for handling exports. If it is, then someone was asleep here.

The only problem that a commish might run into is where two friends from the same area (college, or in highschool the same city on the same cable ISP). You could hit the same IP that way, especially in college if the school provides a group ISP for its students. I think Ethan and Avi of TWB went to the same school. I don't know if they had the same ISP. If they did, it's just something they tell the Commish when coming into the league.

As far as the overall concept of one person managing several teams through sockos, I'm not surprised by it. Socko puppets have long been a common things in the online world, and not just among discussion communities. Other gaming and fantasy communities have had to deal with it for years. I would guess that there's been a lot more of it in OOTP leagues than people realize. It's just the nature of things, and being online seems to encourage it more than real life. Commishs *and* fellow GMs/Owners just need to be vigilant about the hints of something like that and the hints of collusion.

The case above indicated that there was a history of writing off one of the socko's actions as "screwing up". There appears to be a strong belief in a lot of leagues of *not* stepping in to prevent teams from making ridiculously bad deals, or by extension being willing to accept horribly one-sided deals becuae "it's his team and is he wants to destroy it, it's his choice". There's a side reason to that which very few of us talk about publically: "If he was that stupid to make that deal, perhaps I can fleece the hell out of him as well." Blood in the water, and we're all sharks.

The problem is that those strong beliefs are the very things that GM's working a socko or collusive angle will seek out and exploit. Granted, the guy in this league was in overkill with three teams, and using one as a tanking ground to strengthen the other two. If he limited it to two teams, using one to give the "edge" to the other, and then subtley allowed himself to get fleeced by other teams as well at a ratio of one bad deal to his other team per one bad deal to other teams in the league, he'd likely fly under the radar. Enough other GM's would have gotten "theirs", and the Bad GM Socko would likely just have been a joke around the league. Even a ratio of two bad trades to other teams, spread strategically all around the league, to just one key bad trade to his other controlled teams is enough to tip the balance.

There are a lot of reasons for leagues to be vigilant about unreasonable "bad deals", and taking a pro active view against them. That they are the ground that sockos and collusive Owners/GMs exploit are just the most obvious reason.

John

BaseballMan · 11-20-2006, 03:45 PM

Personally i think the person is missing the point of being in an online league. It isnt just about winning, its about building your team, going through hard times,
finally putting the puzzle together. Then trying to stay on top as long as you can but doing it through legit trades and draft. Even if you make a bad trade then you learn from it. Stacking the deck just takes the fun away. I had a nephew that would do the same thing in Madden. Trade away all players for superstars. To me why even be in an online league and ruin the league for everyone else. That would be the same as someone who was in a league and just let the computer do everything possible for his team.

It took me from OOTP2 till OOtp6 to finally join a league. I have only been in the league for 3 seasons but its been enjoyable. In my first season i had to get to know my team. In my second season the team took a step backwards but i saw some young players develop. I also realized that i had to get rid of Sam Crawford. Crawford had been with my team since 1901 and i beleive it was after 1916 that i let him go but i had too in order to get some young pitchers. I only improved a little bit in my 3rd season but i think i am starting to put the pieces together for a run at the pennant. But there is a legit powerhouse team in my league and with injuries theres no guarantee my team wont regress. If so then i have to deciede were to make the changes or if a firesale is needed. If i make it to the top then its who can i afford to keep that will give me the best chance of winning.
To me its a waste of time and no fun to cheat to win but if a person must do it then cheat at solo play and dont ruin an online league

jdw · 11-20-2006, 11:50 PM

I agree with all of that. For me winning wasn't everything, and there were loads of fun things not just on my own team but in the entire league to keep me entertained even when my team was medicore.

But I also think that it's naive to project that view that we might personally hold onto every other person playing in a league that we participate in. For some, it's all about winning, and doing whatever it takes to win. With that mindset, sockos or collusion is just one extreme.

That's why I said that the Commish and Owners/GMs of a league need to keep that in the back of their mind. The are folks who will cross the lines.

John

frankduffy · 12-27-2006, 04:17 PM

It seems like it might be wise to ask each GM in a league to give a phone number and name for verification. Then the Commish coud call the players to verify who they are and welcome the person to the league.

If the phone numbers were in the same area code, that'd be a pair to watch as trades go down.

I think if a person really ran two teams in a legitimate fashion it wouldn't be an issue - a couple possible exceptions though. It's when trades occur between the two teams that this kind of thing gets crazy.

Also, when GMs are kicked out of a league and then come back as a different person.

Oh, and the, "I should be able to confront my accusers" arguments. OOTP is not a federal government program. There's no constitutional protection. It's a game. People get kicked out of games all the time just because they forget to pay up for beer - nevermind cheating or lying about who they are.

11-20-2006, 01:34 PM	#21
jdw All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,161	There are ways around that if one wanted to put the effort into it. In fact, it would take very little effort since many of us have two IPs - home and work. One would just need to track in their head that GM/Owner A logs in at home and is a "prolific" participant, while GM/Owner B logs in at work and does very little posting. I'm not sure if Commishes have on the back end something that tracks the IP address that exports are uploaded from. That likely would be the best way from something like this to be tackled from - someone designing Commish-side a log of the IPs that teams export from. While it's possible that people have the game on both their home and work machines, or that they have a laptop/docking station that they use for it at home and work, that's a little iffy. I, for example, was a rather prolific poster with TWB both at home and work, but only exported from home where I had the game. A logging feature would catch a second team if I socko'd one. Perhaps that's a feature already in the tools that Commish's use for handling exports. If it is, then someone was asleep here. The only problem that a commish might run into is where two friends from the same area (college, or in highschool the same city on the same cable ISP). You could hit the same IP that way, especially in college if the school provides a group ISP for its students. I think Ethan and Avi of TWB went to the same school. I don't know if they had the same ISP. If they did, it's just something they tell the Commish when coming into the league. As far as the overall concept of one person managing several teams through sockos, I'm not surprised by it. Socko puppets have long been a common things in the online world, and not just among discussion communities. Other gaming and fantasy communities have had to deal with it for years. I would guess that there's been a lot more of it in OOTP leagues than people realize. It's just the nature of things, and being online seems to encourage it more than real life. Commishs and fellow GMs/Owners just need to be vigilant about the hints of something like that and the hints of collusion. The case above indicated that there was a history of writing off one of the socko's actions as "screwing up". There appears to be a strong belief in a lot of leagues of not stepping in to prevent teams from making ridiculously bad deals, or by extension being willing to accept horribly one-sided deals becuae "it's his team and is he wants to destroy it, it's his choice". There's a side reason to that which very few of us talk about publically: "If he was that stupid to make that deal, perhaps I can fleece the hell out of him as well." Blood in the water, and we're all sharks. The problem is that those strong beliefs are the very things that GM's working a socko or collusive angle will seek out and exploit. Granted, the guy in this league was in overkill with three teams, and using one as a tanking ground to strengthen the other two. If he limited it to two teams, using one to give the "edge" to the other, and then subtley allowed himself to get fleeced by other teams as well at a ratio of one bad deal to his other team per one bad deal to other teams in the league, he'd likely fly under the radar. Enough other GM's would have gotten "theirs", and the Bad GM Socko would likely just have been a joke around the league. Even a ratio of two bad trades to other teams, spread strategically all around the league, to just one key bad trade to his other controlled teams is enough to tip the balance. There are a lot of reasons for leagues to be vigilant about unreasonable "bad deals", and taking a pro active view against them. That they are the ground that sockos and collusive Owners/GMs exploit are just the most obvious reason. John

11-20-2006, 03:45 PM	#22
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,647	Personally i think the person is missing the point of being in an online league. It isnt just about winning, its about building your team, going through hard times, finally putting the puzzle together. Then trying to stay on top as long as you can but doing it through legit trades and draft. Even if you make a bad trade then you learn from it. Stacking the deck just takes the fun away. I had a nephew that would do the same thing in Madden. Trade away all players for superstars. To me why even be in an online league and ruin the league for everyone else. That would be the same as someone who was in a league and just let the computer do everything possible for his team. It took me from OOTP2 till OOtp6 to finally join a league. I have only been in the league for 3 seasons but its been enjoyable. In my first season i had to get to know my team. In my second season the team took a step backwards but i saw some young players develop. I also realized that i had to get rid of Sam Crawford. Crawford had been with my team since 1901 and i beleive it was after 1916 that i let him go but i had too in order to get some young pitchers. I only improved a little bit in my 3rd season but i think i am starting to put the pieces together for a run at the pennant. But there is a legit powerhouse team in my league and with injuries theres no guarantee my team wont regress. If so then i have to deciede were to make the changes or if a firesale is needed. If i make it to the top then its who can i afford to keep that will give me the best chance of winning. To me its a waste of time and no fun to cheat to win but if a person must do it then cheat at solo play and dont ruin an online league

11-20-2006, 11:50 PM	#23
jdw All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,161	I agree with all of that. For me winning wasn't everything, and there were loads of fun things not just on my own team but in the entire league to keep me entertained even when my team was medicore. But I also think that it's naive to project that view that we might personally hold onto every other person playing in a league that we participate in. For some, it's all about winning, and doing whatever it takes to win. With that mindset, sockos or collusion is just one extreme. That's why I said that the Commish and Owners/GMs of a league need to keep that in the back of their mind. The are folks who will cross the lines. John

12-27-2006, 04:17 PM	#24
frankduffy Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 47	It seems like it might be wise to ask each GM in a league to give a phone number and name for verification. Then the Commish coud call the players to verify who they are and welcome the person to the league. If the phone numbers were in the same area code, that'd be a pair to watch as trades go down. I think if a person really ran two teams in a legitimate fashion it wouldn't be an issue - a couple possible exceptions though. It's when trades occur between the two teams that this kind of thing gets crazy. Also, when GMs are kicked out of a league and then come back as a different person. Oh, and the, "I should be able to confront my accusers" arguments. OOTP is not a federal government program. There's no constitutional protection. It's a game. People get kicked out of games all the time just because they forget to pay up for beer - nevermind cheating or lying about who they are.