Pitching Wins Championships?

GiantsRule · 03-24-2002, 10:23 AM

Alright I've got a question for you guys. When you take over a team do you lean towards building a pitching type team or a batting type team or do you try to balance? Also does the year affect if pitchers or batters dominate the league?

BrewedCrew · 03-24-2002, 10:28 AM

I personally go with hitting because if you team contributes and scores you dont need the best pitchers ive seen bad pitchers with 5.00 eras winning 20 games as long as they have run support they can win.

MizzouRah · 03-24-2002, 01:43 PM

I even mine out. My team is like a puzzle to me, I get players who fit my puzzle.

Speed in the OF
Power at the corners
A good Defensive catcher

Young SP
midan age MR
young fireballer as closer

I'm still a believer of speed - I guess I grew up watching too much Whitey ball!

Furcal hits a single, steals second. Stewart hits a single, Furcal scores. Stewart steals second, and on and on....

Todd

Lance010 · 03-24-2002, 02:00 PM

I go with big hitters. Here's proof.

Two weeks into my new season with the Yanks, Randy Choate is 2-0 with a 10.30 ERA.

Tarkus · 03-24-2002, 02:10 PM

I try to balance it. Good hitting can carry a team. Hmm, actually I should back up my great hitting team and load it up with crappy pitching and see how they do. Then I can do the same except load it up with pitching. Would be an interesting experiment. bbiab.

Tarkus

Tarkus · 03-24-2002, 02:43 PM

Okay, I took my very good hitting team and gave them AAA pitching (the worst of AAA) and they still won 96 games. I then did the same for the hitters and they won 94 games. So what does this prove? Well, nothing at this point. Plus the experiment wasn't very scientific. One may conclude that a balance would be best but I'd have to test that again since these first two experiments didn't really address that issue. I'm sure this didn't help at all, but I gave it a quick shot.

Tarkus

[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: Tarkus ]</p>

JML · 03-24-2002, 02:53 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Tarkus:
<strong>Plus the experiment wasn't very scientific. One may conclude that a balance would be best but I'd have to test that again since this first two experiments didn't really address that issue. I'm sure this didn't help at all but I gave it a quick shot.

Tarkus

[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: Tarkus ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

you forgot a big factor and a really, really big factor: Defense and Luck.

Goody · 03-24-2002, 02:55 PM

I think it really depends on who your opponents are. Take a big hitting team like Cleveland up against a pitching/defense/speed team like Seattle (you could also use the Yankees in the example but I'm a Mariners fan) and Seattle is going to have the edge because they can exploit Cleveland's pitching weakness and defense....getting those quick guys like Suzuki and Cameron around the bases using bunts and infield singles. Then take Cleveland against a more balanced...like say Oakland...and Cleveland has a better advantage. While Oakland vs. Seattle would be a better matchup for Oakland because they are balanced enough to be harder to exploit the weaknesses. Just my two cents.

(I'm referring to the 2001 teams here)

GiantsRule · 03-24-2002, 04:08 PM

Thanks for your opinions guys, my friend and I have been playing the game and he loaded up on hitters when he was Atlanta, he had manny ramirez, magglio ordenez and chipper and adrew jones. I loaded up the SF Giants with pitching and ended up making it to the world series with Mike Mussina leading the way. So i'll have to try to load up my lineup.

DennisS · 03-24-2002, 05:10 PM

Good hitting beats good pitching.....and vice versa

Seriously, I think you need to step back and consider how you win baseball games.... fundamentally, you score more runs than your opponent.

Doesn't matter how ya do it, either.

Having Pedro Martinez will allow you to score fewer runs and win....Barry Bonds will allow you to give up more runs and win.

A pitching staff of Pedro's, and a lineup of Barry's, and there ya go.

Going to have a lot of passed balls, though.

Here is some statistical fun for you all.

You score 5 runs a game, you give up 4 runs a game.

5 squared is 25, 4 squared is 16.

Your expected record is 25-16

Score 6 runs, give up 3?
(6 x 6 = 36)
(3 x 3 = 9)

Projected record: 36-9, or .750, 121 wins.
Projected out for a full season: 99 wins

So...what's my point?

Simple....when it is your turn to select, take the best player available, that you can use, relative to the league average.

Ricky Henderson is a god...scores a sh!tload of runs.

My personal preference is a guy who gets on base AT LEAST twice a game, on average...(324 times per year).

I believe OPS works pretty well, and I read another poster who stated he likes to add an additional 20% weighting factor to the OBP portion of OPS. Works for me, I agree.

Just thought of a good prototype player. Look up Wade Boggs in baseball-reference.com.

And Just for fun, look up Mookie Wilson, the Mets leadoff hitter of the 80's....play close attention to his OBP. Hysterical.

Look at the Mets this year, at Payton and Ordonez's OBP....BOTH under .300. Mets ain't gonna score sh!t this year, heh heh.

That is all.

Cheers

Khaos · 03-24-2002, 05:12 PM

The last couple of vulgarity filled screaming at the monitor series where I was swept at home and got bumped out of first place games, I've learned to appreciate that a team needs some very good MRs also if it doesn't want to give up the lead 3 games in a row and lose.

rallymonkey1982 · 03-24-2002, 07:59 PM

I always go pitching first, I believe it's the best way to build a championship team. An ace pitcher (with good defense)can beat a top lineup by himself any day. I don't mean I have 5 stud SPs and nothing else, but any championship team I get has to be built around one ace SP and a good complement of role players.

SSG Troyer · 03-25-2002, 04:53 AM

Pitching first. Once I have at least three pitchers who would be the ace of any other team, I'll start looking for ways to raise my team OPS.

With an eye to offense, I'll try for defense, too. range and pct 2B and SS, strong arm C, range, Range RANGE all around. Generally, I'm so insistant that 2B and SS be defensive that they're my worst hitters. I'm also a fan of speed and station-to-station baseball, so OBA is more important to me than SLG, though for lineups I use OPS as a rough guide.

bbo4 · 03-25-2002, 05:53 AM

The key to winning ballgames in my opinion is Pitching,defense,speed. If you have 1 guy in the lineup with power this solution works almost all of the time. (Also health, 2 huge factors for any league,team)

H I Mcdonough · 03-25-2002, 08:47 PM

I definitely try to balance, but it doesn't always work. What does work, however, is dominant pitching.

I have had seasons where I won 115 games and outhit everyone like I was the '93 Blue Jays, and then get bounced in the playoffs.

Then I have a team that just barely wins their division, 91 or 92 wins, but loaded with quality starting pitching. Series winner.

H_I

bamf909 · 03-27-2002, 01:59 PM

I think that pitching is the way to go with any team. Just look at last years championship team. The D-backs won because of their pitching (besides Kim Byung-Hyun) and many other teams that were good last year also had good pitching staffs, like the A's.

EagleEye_0 · 03-27-2002, 02:19 PM

In my experience it's hitters who get you to the post-season. However, once you get there if you have three top of the line pitchers and a good bullpen then your near impossible to beat. So, I usually try to build a team with a couple of front line starters, a good bullpen and solid hitting. I usually win just enough games in the regular season to get me to the playoffs and then my aces take over. At the same time, I've had a pitcher or two get hurt or My aces not perform well in the regular season and then I miss the playoffs all together.

Sometimes its fun just to build a powerhouse offense with bad pitching and see what happens, but Its tougher to win the series this way in my opinion

HolyCow98 · 03-29-2002, 07:51 AM

Well, in the 4 seasons I've finished so far I've avg 108.5 wins and won the division every year. I think there are endless recipes for a good team as far as the regular season.
I think the factors are
Some sort of balance between hitting and pitching
If you have shortcoming in one and can't improve it you need to compensate with the other. The goal obviously would be to be good in both.
I try to concentrate on SP more than anything else and balance that with a 1-2-3-4 part of the line up that will have a high OBP, for me OBP is what has been the biggest factor, I've never led in AVG or HR's but as a team been in the top 3 in OBP every year and never been lower than 4 th in runs scored couple that with my pitching staff which has never had a team ERA higher than 3.71 and I've pretty much coasted in the regular season.
Defense is the best enhancing part of the mix.
Right now every starter on my team has A in range except for 3B which is a C and 1B which is a D.
My middle defense definately saves runs for me with the amount of balls they get to and the amount of double play ground outs I get it a big ingredient in my team.
On the offenisive side of it speed does the same thing for the offense..if my team has a weakness though it is this, I only have one legitimate sb guy in Rafael Furcal. (and he is hurt right now.)
I want to see my 1-4 starters pitch 200+ IP with ERA's below 4
I want my 1-4 hitters to have OBP over .385 or higher.
I want to have a good defense to complimate the pitchers.
I want to be able to make the other team pay for the baserunners that get on with SB's and 3 run HR's

DennisS · 03-29-2002, 02:22 PM

HolyCow98

Why .385 for the first four? Is that a majic number for you?

I like OBP as well, as a predictive tool for offensive performance. My team's defence are nowhere near as capable as yours, though. How many wins would you estimate the defense means in a normal year?

snakehips · 03-31-2002, 12:08 PM

Just my inexpert opinion on this v interesting topic. Obviously balance is important, but good pitching has to be better than good hitting (especially sluggers). If you've got 2 outstanding starters like the D-backs, you can pretty much count on 40 games in the bag and you're only going to need to find another 50 wins over the course of the season, with big bats and no pitching you can't really predict any certain wins.

You know, it sounds so easy I'm surprised they don't all do it.

03-24-2002, 10:23 AM	#1
GiantsRule Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Fargo,ND Posts: 85	Pitching Wins Championships? Alright I've got a question for you guys. When you take over a team do you lean towards building a pitching type team or a batting type team or do you try to balance? Also does the year affect if pitchers or batters dominate the league?

03-24-2002, 10:28 AM	#2
BrewedCrew Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Minnesota Posts: 414	I personally go with hitting because if you team contributes and scores you dont need the best pitchers ive seen bad pitchers with 5.00 eras winning 20 games as long as they have run support they can win. __________________

03-24-2002, 02:00 PM	#4
Lance010 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 49	I go with big hitters. Here's proof. Two weeks into my new season with the Yanks, Randy Choate is 2-0 with a 10.30 ERA. __________________ "If you hail from NY, you HAVE to choose between the Mets and Yanks. I've heard people that support both teams. What is this, like the bisexuality of sports?? - Bill Simmons

03-24-2002, 02:10 PM	#5
Tarkus Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 93	I try to balance it. Good hitting can carry a team. Hmm, actually I should back up my great hitting team and load it up with crappy pitching and see how they do. Then I can do the same except load it up with pitching. Would be an interesting experiment. bbiab. Tarkus __________________ Winning may not be everything, but losing isn't anything.

03-24-2002, 02:43 PM	#6
Tarkus Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 93	Okay, I took my very good hitting team and gave them AAA pitching (the worst of AAA) and they still won 96 games. I then did the same for the hitters and they won 94 games. So what does this prove? Well, nothing at this point. Plus the experiment wasn't very scientific. One may conclude that a balance would be best but I'd have to test that again since these first two experiments didn't really address that issue. I'm sure this didn't help at all, but I gave it a quick shot. Tarkus [ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: Tarkus ]</p> __________________ Winning may not be everything, but losing isn't anything.

03-24-2002, 01:43 PM	#3
MizzouRah Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Troy, Mo Posts: 6,266	I even mine out. My team is like a puzzle to me, I get players who fit my puzzle. Speed in the OF Power at the corners A good Defensive catcher Young SP midan age MR young fireballer as closer I'm still a believer of speed - I guess I grew up watching too much Whitey ball! Furcal hits a single, steals second. Stewart hits a single, Furcal scores. Stewart steals second, and on and on.... Todd

03-24-2002, 02:53 PM	#7
JML Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The act or process of locating. Posts: 2,154	[quote]Originally posted by Tarkus: <strong>Plus the experiment wasn't very scientific. One may conclude that a balance would be best but I'd have to test that again since this first two experiments didn't really address that issue. I'm sure this didn't help at all but I gave it a quick shot. Tarkus [ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: Tarkus ]</strong><hr></blockquote> you forgot a big factor and a really, really big factor: Defense and Luck.

03-24-2002, 02:55 PM	#8
Goody Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: South Korea Posts: 3,530	I think it really depends on who your opponents are. Take a big hitting team like Cleveland up against a pitching/defense/speed team like Seattle (you could also use the Yankees in the example but I'm a Mariners fan) and Seattle is going to have the edge because they can exploit Cleveland's pitching weakness and defense....getting those quick guys like Suzuki and Cameron around the bases using bunts and infield singles. Then take Cleveland against a more balanced...like say Oakland...and Cleveland has a better advantage. While Oakland vs. Seattle would be a better matchup for Oakland because they are balanced enough to be harder to exploit the weaknesses. Just my two cents. (I'm referring to the 2001 teams here) __________________ In the past: Laseron Baseball Association creator. Present: I am Rezulm on PT and OOTP Discord. Future: I wish it was the past.

03-24-2002, 04:08 PM	#9
GiantsRule Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Fargo,ND Posts: 85	Thanks for your opinions guys, my friend and I have been playing the game and he loaded up on hitters when he was Atlanta, he had manny ramirez, magglio ordenez and chipper and adrew jones. I loaded up the SF Giants with pitching and ended up making it to the world series with Mike Mussina leading the way. So i'll have to try to load up my lineup.

03-24-2002, 05:10 PM	#10
DennisS Minors (Double A) Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 107	Good hitting beats good pitching.....and vice versa Seriously, I think you need to step back and consider how you win baseball games.... fundamentally, you score more runs than your opponent. Doesn't matter how ya do it, either. Having Pedro Martinez will allow you to score fewer runs and win....Barry Bonds will allow you to give up more runs and win. A pitching staff of Pedro's, and a lineup of Barry's, and there ya go. Going to have a lot of passed balls, though. Here is some statistical fun for you all. You score 5 runs a game, you give up 4 runs a game. 5 squared is 25, 4 squared is 16. Your expected record is 25-16 Score 6 runs, give up 3? (6 x 6 = 36) (3 x 3 = 9) Projected record: 36-9, or .750, 121 wins. Projected out for a full season: 99 wins So...what's my point? Simple....when it is your turn to select, take the best player available, that you can use, relative to the league average. Ricky Henderson is a god...scores a sh!tload of runs. My personal preference is a guy who gets on base AT LEAST twice a game, on average...(324 times per year). I believe OPS works pretty well, and I read another poster who stated he likes to add an additional 20% weighting factor to the OBP portion of OPS. Works for me, I agree. Just thought of a good prototype player. Look up Wade Boggs in baseball-reference.com. And Just for fun, look up Mookie Wilson, the Mets leadoff hitter of the 80's....play close attention to his OBP. Hysterical. Look at the Mets this year, at Payton and Ordonez's OBP....BOTH under .300. Mets ain't gonna score sh!t this year, heh heh. That is all. Cheers

03-24-2002, 05:12 PM	#11
Khaos Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canfield, OH Posts: 473	The last couple of vulgarity filled screaming at the monitor series where I was swept at home and got bumped out of first place games, I've learned to appreciate that a team needs some very good MRs also if it doesn't want to give up the lead 3 games in a row and lose. __________________ squish

03-24-2002, 07:59 PM	#12
rallymonkey1982 Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Orange County Posts: 436	I always go pitching first, I believe it's the best way to build a championship team. An ace pitcher (with good defense)can beat a top lineup by himself any day. I don't mean I have 5 stud SPs and nothing else, but any championship team I get has to be built around one ace SP and a good complement of role players. __________________ "This is sort of like living the American dream. You get to come the ballpark and get a free beer." - Arte Moreno My Life

03-25-2002, 04:53 AM	#13
SSG Troyer All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Somewhere to the left of 2nd base Posts: 1,598	Pitching first. Once I have at least three pitchers who would be the ace of any other team, I'll start looking for ways to raise my team OPS. With an eye to offense, I'll try for defense, too. range and pct 2B and SS, strong arm C, range, Range RANGE all around. Generally, I'm so insistant that 2B and SS be defensive that they're my worst hitters. I'm also a fan of speed and station-to-station baseball, so OBA is more important to me than SLG, though for lineups I use OPS as a rough guide. __________________ MWT Did Tennesee Delaware Mississppi's New Jersey? Idaho ... Alaska!

03-25-2002, 05:53 AM	#14
bbo4 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: South of Boston, Ma Posts: 214	The key to winning ballgames in my opinion is Pitching,defense,speed. If you have 1 guy in the lineup with power this solution works almost all of the time. (Also health, 2 huge factors for any league,team) __________________ "In 1962 I was named Minor League Player of the Year. It was my second season in the Bigs."

03-25-2002, 08:47 PM	#15
H I Mcdonough Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 291	I definitely try to balance, but it doesn't always work. What does work, however, is dominant pitching. I have had seasons where I won 115 games and outhit everyone like I was the '93 Blue Jays, and then get bounced in the playoffs. Then I have a team that just barely wins their division, 91 or 92 wins, but loaded with quality starting pitching. Series winner. H_I

03-27-2002, 01:59 PM	#16
bamf909 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: fargo, nd Posts: 34	I think that pitching is the way to go with any team. Just look at last years championship team. The D-backs won because of their pitching (besides Kim Byung-Hyun) and many other teams that were good last year also had good pitching staffs, like the A's. __________________ save the expos!

03-27-2002, 02:19 PM	#17
EagleEye_0 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 1,426	In my experience it's hitters who get you to the post-season. However, once you get there if you have three top of the line pitchers and a good bullpen then your near impossible to beat. So, I usually try to build a team with a couple of front line starters, a good bullpen and solid hitting. I usually win just enough games in the regular season to get me to the playoffs and then my aces take over. At the same time, I've had a pitcher or two get hurt or My aces not perform well in the regular season and then I miss the playoffs all together. Sometimes its fun just to build a powerhouse offense with bad pitching and see what happens, but Its tougher to win the series this way in my opinion

03-29-2002, 07:51 AM	#18
HolyCow98 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Douglasville, GA Posts: 2,735	Well, in the 4 seasons I've finished so far I've avg 108.5 wins and won the division every year. I think there are endless recipes for a good team as far as the regular season. I think the factors are Some sort of balance between hitting and pitching If you have shortcoming in one and can't improve it you need to compensate with the other. The goal obviously would be to be good in both. I try to concentrate on SP more than anything else and balance that with a 1-2-3-4 part of the line up that will have a high OBP, for me OBP is what has been the biggest factor, I've never led in AVG or HR's but as a team been in the top 3 in OBP every year and never been lower than 4 th in runs scored couple that with my pitching staff which has never had a team ERA higher than 3.71 and I've pretty much coasted in the regular season. Defense is the best enhancing part of the mix. Right now every starter on my team has A in range except for 3B which is a C and 1B which is a D. My middle defense definately saves runs for me with the amount of balls they get to and the amount of double play ground outs I get it a big ingredient in my team. On the offenisive side of it speed does the same thing for the offense..if my team has a weakness though it is this, I only have one legitimate sb guy in Rafael Furcal. (and he is hurt right now.) I want to see my 1-4 starters pitch 200+ IP with ERA's below 4 I want my 1-4 hitters to have OBP over .385 or higher. I want to have a good defense to complimate the pitchers. I want to be able to make the other team pay for the baserunners that get on with SB's and 3 run HR's __________________ NPBL Enjoying its 60th season Georgia GM

03-29-2002, 02:22 PM	#19
DennisS Minors (Double A) Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 107	HolyCow98 Why .385 for the first four? Is that a majic number for you? I like OBP as well, as a predictive tool for offensive performance. My team's defence are nowhere near as capable as yours, though. How many wins would you estimate the defense means in a normal year?

03-31-2002, 12:08 PM	#20
snakehips Bat Boy Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: UK Posts: 8	Just my inexpert opinion on this v interesting topic. Obviously balance is important, but good pitching has to be better than good hitting (especially sluggers). If you've got 2 outstanding starters like the D-backs, you can pretty much count on 40 games in the bag and you're only going to need to find another 50 wins over the course of the season, with big bats and no pitching you can't really predict any certain wins. You know, it sounds so easy I'm surprised they don't all do it.