Time Warp HOF Ballot 1971

[jdw]

I wasn't planning to close it anytime soon. I hope at the very least to get all the Usual Suspect in the league to vote, and also to see if Matt has time to vote.

BTW - if any of you are one of the Usual Suspects, get in here and vote! Your support would be appreciated, and I think it might warm Matt's heart a bit to see that folks care enough about the history of the league to participate. I mean... look at the names above. Those are some of the all-time greats.

"This is a loaded class of newcomers. It includes the only player to reach 3000 hits who played the majority of his career in the Live Era (1946-71). It includes four players who ranked #4, #5, #6 and #11 all-time in HR's when they retired at the end of 1965. It includes a 294 game winner and a 272 game winner who combined to win five Pitcher of the Year awards. It also includes a pitcher widely considered to be one of the two best post season pitchers of all-time."
-The Sporting News




John

[metsgeek]

Arrendale
Brown
Dietrich
Degal
Perry
Habermahl
Nunez
Ormiston
Gwaltney
Sardina

[kreitena]

Arsenault
Nunez
Ormiston
Brown
Degal
Habermehl
Gwaltney
Sardina
Perry

[jdw]

One quick note since we were talking about Hank Makris' post season numbers. Probably the two best hitters in post season play with a lot of games played are Ray Kress and Luther Ormiston, two of the Mighty Tigers:

Luther holds the all-time OPS record with a mark of 1.152. Kress is #2 among players with three or more series with a 1.104 mark. [Tricky McNicholas and Kevion Stines are actually ahead of Kress with almost a third of the PA's in just two Series]

This was no one monster Series for Luther:

1948 .310/.375/.690/1.065 with 3 HR and 10 RBI
1952 .389/.455/.722/1.177 with 2 HR and 6 RBI
1953 .391/.417/.957/1.373 with 3 HR and 7 RBI
1954 .278/.381/.722/1.103 with 2 HR and 10 RBI

He went 0/2 in two PH at bats in the 1955 series.

Lonny Arrendale was the MVP in the 1948 WS hitting .300/.290/.600/.890 with 3 HR's and 7 RBI. Luther out hit him in the 7 game series, and his name was practially engraved on the MVP trophy until the Phils made their late game comeback to win Game 7.

Luther was just as good in the five game 1952 Series, but was overshadowed by the greatest post season performance of all-time - Kress' sureal .600/.727/1.533/2.261, 9/15 with 2 2B, 4 HR, 7 BB (on base 16 out of 22 PA's), 7 R and 10 RBI's performance that caused the legendary Woody Woodson say:

"If you told me he could walk on water I'd half believe it."

Luther finally won the WS MVP in 1953. He came back with another monster post season in 1954 as the Mighty Tigers brushed aside the Cards in five games, but that year Roy Wolfe went 2-0 with a 1.69 ERA.

Luther performed well enough to win *four* WS MVP awards.

He holds the all-time post season records in SLG, OPS, HR and RBI.

He did this despite facing some of the best pitching in the game.

In the 1948 WS, 30 game winner and 1948 POY (and future HOFer) John Nolting went twice for the Phils, while 1947POY Mickey Lonergan pitched two of the other games.

In 1952, twenty game winner Garland "Gun For Hire" Sisk starter two of the games for the Giants. Walter "Cool Water" Pond started two of the other three games, and while his 10-8 record in 1952 doesn't look impressive, that was largely due to injuries during the year. In 1951 he had one of the great rookie seasons in TWB history going 23-12.

In 1953-54, future HOFer Grady Ingram started four of the 10 games for the Cards. Ingram went 55-14 combined in those two years, winning the POY in 1954. Two other games in 1953 were started by Gene Masarech who possed some of the nastiest (and wildest) stuff of the era. In 1953 he was at the top of his form, going 22-7 with the #8 ERA in the NL. After coming over from the Giants, the Gun For Hire would start twice for the Cards in 1954. He went 20-13 that year.

In the 1948 and 1952-54 World Series, Luther more than any other Mighty Tiger destroyed some of the best pitching the National League.


John

[jdw]

Since I'm in a rambling mood, and since this is his last time on the HOF Ballot before going to the VC, I thought I'd toss up something on Maurice Misisca.

This was from the Big Thread back when he won his first BOY. Very slightly modified to correct a couple of typos and also to idendify Krosser and Vacha as they have since had strong backstories created for that Phillies Dynasty (we didn't talk as much about Managers and General Manager characters back in 1943).

--------------------------------------

Moe was a late 2nd round pick by the White Sox in 1931 with the Misisca Family name to live up to. His brother has just made his 6th straight Top 10 finish in HRs, ranking first once and second twice along with two RBI titles to that point.

Maurice won the ROY at the age of 19 (.249/.272/.433/.706 with 81 RBI) in 1931 after just 13 games in the minors. He showed tremendous growth potential the following year (.302/.362/.444/.807) through 20 games when a ruptured medial collateral ligament ended his season. The White Sox tried to give him his job back in 1933, but he just wasn't the same - .238/.260/.405/.666.

From there he ended up largely in the Sox minors from 1934-39, becoming something of a minor league legend and major league wash out in various cups of coffee. In 522 minor league games in those seasons, all but 19 at AAA level, he hit .321/.418/.623/1.041 with 168 HR, 458 RBI, 441 R and 330 BB. It's hard to grasp those numbers in that 522 game context, so putting them in a 150 game context they were:

.321/.418/.623/1.041 with 23/3/45 2B/3B/HR, 132 RBI, 127 R, 184 H and 95 BB

That's quite a minor league hitter, but he'd just bomb out in the majors.

The Sox gave had him on the MLB roster the entire year in 1940, but he saw very limited duty. Still, he showed a glimpse of his ability - .306/.372/.412/.784. That got more playing time the following year, and he also caught the eye of the legendary Philly management combo of executive Mark Krosser and manager Bop Vacha in spring training. The Phils were finally able to trade for him midway through June. Maurice went back to bombing - .237/.322/.363/.685. Krosser and Vacha were confident in his talent and committed to giving him the fulltime job in 1942. Maurice pushed his numbers up to .271/.355/.398/.753. Not great, but in the mush ball of 1942, it wasn't horrid. His 15 HR put in 5th in the NL, which was his first visit to the leader board since his 17 HR as a rookie way back in 1931 ranked 4th.

This year was the break out: 5th in BA, 1st in OBP, 5th in SLG, 3rd in OPS, 1st in RC, 2nd in RC/27, 6th in H, 4th in HR, 5th in RBI, 10th in R, 8th in BB, 7th in EBH and 3rd in TB.

That's the type of leader board peppering that people expected out of him back when he won the ROY and before the injury changed his career for good. It's a wonderful bit of redemption for him.

--------------------------------------

The knee injury in 1932 trashed his very promising career from 1933-41. Also in the backstory of that grew in the 30s, the Chicago White Sox of the Jeffrey Roland era were one of the most mismanaged franchise of the period. The team's scouting of talent was very strong, with a stretch of excellent prospects from 1927-41 such as Stuffy Zinn, Sunny Davie, Misisca, Mickey Lonergan, Bob Bussmann, Doc Barton and Matt Perly. Zinn and Davie became stars in Chicago. Others like Lonergran, Bussmann, Barton and Moe suffered greatly in the Roland era. Still others like Perly would never play for the Sox because of Roland's dimissive judgement of their talents:

"That fat whale will never be a major leaguer. Get him out of here."

That was Roland after seeing new signee Perly for the first time in the spring of 1941. Perly was the younger brother of Dodger infielder Jonny "Speedy" Perly, who at that time was coming off his second stolen base title for the NL Champions. In his mind, Roland thought he was getting another "Speedy". Instead, all he saw was a slightly chubby 18 year old kid.

What Roland didn't see was the kid had nimble range for his size, and that rather than being a slap hitter like his older brother, hit the ball hard. David Lee, then the head scout for the Detriot Tigers, had seen that several times while scouting at Perly the prior two years. Lee missed out on Perly due to all of the Tigers resources being focused that season on signing a prospect that Lee thought was a once in a lifetime talent - Ray Kress. As soon as word started moving in scouting circles that Roland didn't want the kid, Lee pushed hard for Tigers management to trade for Perly. Before 1941 season even started, the Tigers moved Boze Wealot for Perly and throw-in Errol Roberts. It turned out to be one of the most lopsided deals in league history.

Roland's crack on Perly's size would be imortalized when Kress started jokingly calling Perly "Whale" in 1948, the first big season of the young second baseman's career. By then he'd matured into a 6' 1", 205 pound powerhouse to form the core of the Mighty Tigers offense with Kress and slugging third baseman Luther Ormiston.

Roland was out of baseball by that point. Lonergan, Bussmann, Barton and Misisca would all have their ups and downs under Roland, largely down. All would perform better away from Roland than under him, usually for other teams.

Krosser and Vacha's confidence in Misisca's talents were proven right, not just in 1943 but for the balance of the decade. It's been written that three trades laid the foundation for the great Phils dynasty of 1945-49: lifting first base prospect Lonny Arrendale from Cleveland in May 1940, picking Maurice Misisca from Chicago in June 1941, and in July 1944 taking the supreme defensive shortstop of the era Ted Stuart out of a unhappy situation across town with the A's.

Stuart would win Gold Gloves in all five of his seasons with the Phils. Arrendale would blossom into one of the most feared hitters in the National League. And Misisca would win three BOY's in four seasons. The club would win four pennants from 1945-49, winning the World Series in 1946, 1948 and 1949, Misisca's last season with the club. He was the BOY in the Phils first world title of the stretch. In 1948 he led the club in HR, RBI and Runs will being named the NL All Pro third baseman. In 1949 he fought injuries that limited him to 118 games and just 470 plate appearance. When in the lineup he continued to perform at a strong level, with his .292/.378/.481/.859 batting not far off the level of the NL All Pro 3B of the season, Nick Pursell (.321/.390/.503/.893). Moe also was on a tear down the stretch, hitting .319/.382/.507/.889 in August and the lifting his game to .333/.424/.549/.973 in September before an injury finished his season and would force him to miss the World Series.

Moe's career was a tale in three movements - the Promising Young Prospect, the Career Altered By Injury And Management, and Redemption. His older brother is in the Hall of Fame, having a long career, hitting a lot of home runs, driving in a lot of runs, but never once being thought of as the best player in the league, or rarely even thought of as the best player on his own team. Those Tigers his brother played on were loaded with Hall of Famers - Kinnear, Fite, Misisca, Greisbach and Graves. They won a championship in exactly one season.

I think that's why I like Moe from the moment that he turned it around in 1943 - his career had color.

Quenton's was a long, boring stretch that was over by that point. HR's and RBI's from the age of 24 to 39, a 77-77 team in his first full season as a starter and a 72-82 team in his last full year as a start, with the overwhelming majority of clubs looking the same in between to the point of being one of the most disappointing in the league's history. They contended exactly *once* in his 16 years as a fulltime starter - the season they won it all. They were never closer than 12 games in any other year.

Moe, in contrast, show promise young. It was utterly dashed the following year, and then he sank into the hell that was life as a White Sox prospect in that era (we had a lot of fun joking about those White Sox, Red Sox and Pirates back in those seasons). He got out of jail, and pulled a miracle BOY season with the Phils. Nice story, but no one expected much more than that. The he won the BOY the next year. Then his club won the NL the year after that. Well, the Real Stars would be back after the war and Moe would fade to being just a decent 3B. Except that in 1946 with all the stars back, he won his third BOY and lead his team to a World Title. Fluke? He remained the best 3B in the NL in 1947-48, one of the very best hitters in the league while his club won another World Title. Okay, fluke it wasn't. What could he do at the age of 37 on a team loaded with stars for perhaps one last hurrah? Battling injuries he put up another strong year when able to play as the team steamrolled towards another championship. Within daylight of the finish, he came full circle with a season ending injury. This, though, had a slight better ending as his teammates won a third World Series ring for him in yet another chapter in Phillies lore.

There's a lot of color there. The bad was a blackhole nine year blackhole right in the middle of his career. The good was really memorable.


John

[canadiancreed]

damn good writeups

and that Moe ended his career in Cincy batting over .300 before umm.....a very embarrassing transaction by the GM at the time

[jdw]

You signed Moe as a free agent after Philly released him in the off season. You used him mostly as a PH, which he was good at:

.308/.341/.462/.803 PH (12/39)
.304/.342/.493/.835 Overall (21/69)

4 starts at 3B. Looks like about 41 or so of his 49 games were as a PH, and then he's stay in at 3B some of the time.

He went into free fall ratings wise in late June, though his performance didn't tank. You released him July 3.

I think in hindsight it was a pretty nice send off. I always thought it was pretty weak for the Phils to cut him in the rollover when they had old choads like Bob Sloan, Tony Hartman and player manager Whit Sard sitting on the bench doing next to nothing (and utterly sucking at what they attempted to do). Hartman was a freaking pinch runner. Sard and Campbell could find a spot for a freaking pinch runner on the roster, but not a guy who was a legend in the city, helped them win championships, and was still decent enough to hit .304/.342/.493/.835 for half the season. Total lack of respect.

But that did typify the Sard-Campbell era. If Krosser and Bop were still running the team, that never would have happened.



So you gave Moe a chance to go out on his own terms. He played half the season. He got to make a final appearance in each city and get a little send off. That was a classy thing for Slim Fitzgerald and Ron Bennarivo to do for one of their rival from the 1946-47 pennant races.


John

[jdw]

The deal you're thinking of:

06/16/48
To CHN: 3B Buck Tomlinson (23 years old)
To CIN: RF Dewey Mickelsen (38 years old)

Dewey was coming off a great year at the age of 37 (.321/.412/.540/.951), and started well in 1948 (.306/.361/.485/.846). The slight problem was that his ratings took a massive hit right before you got him, and he had a horrible first SIM of June.

What was even wackier is that you traded Skeeter for Goza & Biff that same day. So you were rebuilding (getting younger with Goza and Biff) and trying to win (taking on an old fart) at the same time.

Those were the early days of rebuilding and it wasn't the art it became.

For years the loss of Tomlinson didn't hurt. He was one of those slow developers. He flipped the switch when going from the Cubs to the Braves, giving them some decent years from 1954-56 when he was 29-31 years old.


John

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by jdw

You signed Moe as a free agent after Philly released him in the off season. You used him mostly as a PH, which he was good at:

.308/.341/.462/.803 PH (12/39)
.304/.342/.493/.835 Overall (21/69)

4 starts at 3B. Looks like about 41 or so of his 49 games were as a PH, and then he's stay in at 3B some of the time.

He went into free fall ratings wise in late June, though his performance didn't tank. You released him July 3.

I think in hindsight it was a pretty nice send off. I always thought it was pretty weak for the Phils to cut him in the rollover when they had old choads like Bob Sloan, Tony Hartman and player manager Whit Sard sitting on the bench doing next to nothing (and utterly sucking at what they attempted to do). Hartman was a freaking pinch runner. Sard and Campbell could find a spot for a freaking pinch runner on the roster, but not a guy who was a legend in the city, helped them win championships, and was still decent enough to hit .304/.342/.493/.835 for half the season. Total lack of respect.

But that did typify the Sard-Campbell era. If Krosser and Bop were still running the team, that never would have happened.



So you gave Moe a chance to go out on his own terms. He played half the season. He got to make a final appearance in each city and get a little send off. That was a classy thing for Slim Fitzgerald and Ron Bennarivo to do for one of their rival from the 1946-47 pennant races.


John

And lord knows he would be better than who would follow him, at least offensively.

J. Jones, the Mark Belanger of the Reds infield. Man what a horrible hitter.

Originally Posted by jdw

The deal you're thinking of:

06/16/48
To CHN: 3B Buck Tomlinson (23 years old)
To CIN: RF Dewey Mickelsen (38 years old)

Dewey was coming off a great year at the age of 37 (.321/.412/.540/.951), and started well in 1948 (.306/.361/.485/.846). The slight problem was that his ratings took a massive hit right before you got him, and he had a horrible first SIM of June.

What was even wackier is that you traded Skeeter for Goza & Biff that same day. So you were rebuilding (getting younger with Goza and Biff) and trying to win (taking on an old fart) at the same time.

Those were the early days of rebuilding and it wasn't the art it became.

For years the loss of Tomlinson didn't hurt. He was one of those slow developers. He flipped the switch when going from the Cubs to the Braves, giving them some decent years from 1954-56 when he was 29-31 years old.


John

Nah wasn't thinking about that one, but thanks for reminding why "Pulling a Dewey" was a popular pharse in the early 50's in Southern OH

[jdw]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

And lord knows he would be better than who would follow him, at least offensively.

J. Jones, the Mark Belanger of the Reds infield. Man what a horrible hitter.

Jones was one of the most disappointing players I've ever been around. I'll have to look up his ratings at home, but I know he had a 7 contact and I think around a 6-7 gap along with perhaps a 4 power. The hope was that he would turn into simply a .280 hitter with 30+ 2B and a few dingers. And of course have the best defense at 3B in the game.

In 1950 he hit .269/.335/.397/.732 with 21 2B and 10 HR at the age of 28, which was pre-peak at that time in TWB's developmental arc (peak tended to run 30-34) The general though was that if he pushed it up to .280 in his peak, he's be on base at a passable .350 clip and slug around .420. Not off the charts, but you could live with a .770 OPS in that park with that defense (especially with your monster GB staff) while focusing resources on other positions.

Then he hit .250/.299/.306/.605 in 1951. A freaking 7 contact in a league that was *not* loaded with very many 9+ contacts... and not a lot of 8's either. 0 HR's. The following year was .278/.341/.344/.684 with just 3 HR's, and only 21 2B's.

1953 saw him hit .290/.357/.376/.733, which was exactly the BA you expecting with the OBP you were looking for and the 39 2B's you were hoping for along with the Gold Glove (his third of four). But he hit just 2 HR's, sinking the OBP down to .376. Utterly frustrating.

His ratings weren't much different from Goza's, who was a career .305/.361/.439/.800 hitter. It does show the variance in what players hit with ratings, as Mo was a .310, .312, .327, .299, .331, .321 hitter as a fulltime starter for the Reds in that era. Biff and Teddie were 7 contacts as well.

Of course you replaced him with Cookie, and he scored 545 runs in 5 years with the Reds, which was tied for the most in the majors in 1955-59:

545 Bullet Cook
545 Arnie Stewart
545 Pap Brown
511 Dave Lemmings
503 Matt Silcox
501 Teddie McMurray
500 Dirtbag Degal
499 Roy Kress

That's pretty good company.

Habermehl "only" scored 475 in that stretch, which is odd given Pap's power from 1955-59.

I think Kress (1143) was the only person to score more runs in the 50s than Cook (1081) did. I think Hans with 1035 was the only other player over 1000, with Teddy just missing at 990.


John

[jdw]

Checking the Almanacs:

7/6/4/5 Goza
7/7/3/6 Biff
7/7/3/5 Jones

Jones was actually the same age as Goza, and two years older than Biff. The general thought was the Jones would at some point develop into a hitter somewhat similar to Goza and Biff.

Obviously it didn't happen. The three were fulltime starters tigether from 1949-54. Here's what their average season looked like:

Mo Goza (CIN)
.317/.375/.457/.832
175/25/6/14 H/2B/3B/HR
88/77 R/RBI with 52/36 BB/K

Biff Betters (CIN)
.301/.371/.404/.776
150/29/2/7 H/2B/3B/HR
62/67 R/RBI with 56/43 BB/K

Jeff Jones (CIN)
.261/.324/.340/.663
124/24/2/4 H/2B/3B/HR
47/52 R/RBI with 45/63 BB/K

Yow!

It's just one of the OOTP things where some guys overperform like Goza, and some underperform like Jones.


John

[Elendil]

Arsenault
Ormiston
Arrendale
Dietrich
Brown
Degal
Habermehl
Perry
Gwaltney
Sardina

[rogmax11]

Im too lazy to type all the names, and fhomes voted exactly as I did so just double up his vote for me. Sure is nice to read the fresh write-ups, John; I am missing this league, particularly since I was working on a HOF career arc for myself. Grrrrr. It never fails. I am the threadkiller de tutti threadkillers.

[jdw]

Originally Posted by rogmax11

Im too lazy to type all the names, and fhomes voted exactly as I did so just double up his vote for me. Sure is nice to read the fresh write-ups, John; I am missing this league, particularly since I was working on a HOF career arc for myself. Grrrrr. It never fails. I am the threadkiller de tutti threadkillers.

For whoever tallies the votes (likely me), these are Roger's votes:

C/3B John Degal
1B Charlton Brown
1B Lonny Arrendal
2B Hans Habermehl
LF Al Arsenault
CF Rudel Dietrich
RF William Perry
SP Martin Gwaltney
SP Adam Sardina
SP Lex Tjeenk-Willink


John

[Vris]

I actually had time to sit down and look through this. I can't pick ten, but I guess I have to.

Misisca
Ormiston
Brown
Degal
Habermahl
Dietrich
Perry

Tjeenk-Willink
Gwaltney (it's a blow in the face for me to see that he only lead the league in ERA once and Wins once..it seemed like he would have 3 or 4 of each)
Sardina


There are two that I think get more credit than they deserve: Woodworth and Makris. He's basically this generation's Willard Schwartz, except at the time, Schwartz had no equal.

Looking back at Makris' numbers, he never lead the league in anything significant (shutouts twice, which is still an accomplishment, but that's it). He did win 20 5 times, and 18-19 3 more. But he seriously crapped the bed in his last 3 years. I don't know if it was the park or the team or what, but he doesn't help his case right there by laying eggs all over the field. He's always just been second fiddle, to me (I know Chris thinks differently), never up among the big boys like Gwaltney and Sardina and Allen, Jr of his time. 1960 was really the only HOF quality year of his career. He had many All-Star worthy seasons, but he never really dominated the league like a HOF should have. I'm not against Hank, I think he's a damn fine pitcher who had a great run. I just don't know if he's in the same class.

[Elendil]

I can't believe Tjeenk-Willink is going to get in - he was basically league average, but he just pitched a long time, and in front of good offensive teams.

[haggis007]

Arrendale
Arsenault
Brown
Degal
Gwaltney
Habermehl
Ormiston
Perry
Sardina
Woodworth


Swamped at work, so I can't spend time justifying all the picks (though few need it), but Woodworth deserves an explanation--it is hard for even me to get past his batting average, but I threw him a vote basically to ensure that his career gets discussed in greater detail down the road: despite the low average, he was still able to clock in a respectable OPS number and 400+ HRs with fantastic defense. Not a shoo-in, but I didn't want him kicked to the curb in his first year.

Go ahead, call me homer.

[haggis007]

BTW--if this weren't Misica's last year, I would have had to juggle my ballot to vote for him, but since it looked like a wasted vote, I will save it for the VC next year.

Sorry, Mo. Just being pragmatic. See you in Cooperstown next year . . .assuming TWB is open for business then . . .

[jdw]

Joe & Brady - thanks for letting me strong arm you into voting.

On Wood... my thing this year was simply hoping he makes it to next year. That seems like it is going to happen. He can be advocated later.

On Lex... you need 70% to get in. I don't think Lex is over 70% right now from those who have voted. This isn't a year that he'll get in.

As for why he does so well... I think in part it's because some remember him as a 33 year old on his way to another 20 win season that would have pushed his win total over 250 with 300 wins a cakewalk from there. He also looked like a candidate for the all-time strikeout record as he had just passed 3000. Then he had a CEI, the second in a few years for the Tribe. He gets a combo or sympathy and credit for that.

I don't know what to make of him, which is why I haven't voted for him. When "on", he was quite a nice pitcher. In other years he was perfectly average.

One of the ironies of his career is that the three times in his career when he pitched his best, he didn't win 20 games in any of those seasons. Injuries kept it from one year when he was a lock, while the other two times he ended up with 19 wins because the Tribe offense *wasn't* strong those years.

In fact, the Tribe offense didn't really get strong until 1958 when he finally won 20 games. From there until his CEI, it was usually one of the very best offenses in the game. There was a conversation about those earlier Tribe offenses in the discussion about Rudel Dietrich. For his career, it may have come close to balancing out.

I can't vote for him over someone like Corky Stell, who still has:

(a) three POY

(b) 3-5-2-1-1 in ERA over a five year stretch

(c) the "difference maker" in the Tigers getting back to the WS and becoming the Mighty Tigers


John

[knightni]

Hans Habermehl
John Degal
Martin Gwaltney
Bud Ayers
Lex Tjeek-Willink
Adam Sardina