American League 2006 MVP Poll - Page 3

MuertoDesagradecido · 10-01-2006, 02:32 AM

Thomas has had a nice bounce-back season, is the best hitter on the A's, and an inner-circle HOF player, but no way is he the MVP this season. Also, the A's wouldn't be in third place without him. You could make an argument for second, but Thomas hasn't been worth thirteen wins.

mikev · 10-01-2006, 02:35 AM

I didn't say he'd win it, but he should get votes. I would vote for him ahead of Jeter.

MuertoDesagradecido · 10-01-2006, 02:43 AM

Jeter: .354/.418/.435 - 76.3 VORP, .309 EQA, 8.9 WARP1
Thomas: .270/.381/.540 - 39.9 VORP, .299 EQA, 4.4 WARP1

Jeter has outhit Thomas this year and is a shortstop to boot. I find that position hard to defend (no pun intended). Jeter has been nearly twice the player as the Big Hurt this season.

mikev · 10-01-2006, 03:13 AM

Giambi: .252/.411/.555 - 45.6 VORP, .319 EQA, 5.6 WARP1
A-Rod: .289/.391/.514 - 49.2 VORP, .304 EQA, 5.4 WARP1

Jeter is barely the best player on his own team, which brings back the "best player" VS "most valuable" award.

Yes, Jeter has had an excellent season, but he was not as valuable to the Yankees as Thomas was to the A's. Just for a second, let's pretend Jeter breaks his ankle during the All Star Game and is out the rest of the year. The Yanks 1) have the means to go and get a replacement for nothing more than the cost of absorbing a huge contract (note the Abreu deal after losing Sheffield and Matsui), and 2) have quite a few other spectacular players in the lineup. If the A's had lost Thomas for a signifigant amount of time, they'd be relying on Eric Chavez and his .239 with 20 homers to hit cleanup :P

MuertoDesagradecido · 10-01-2006, 03:31 AM

I just can't blame Derek Jeter for playing for a good team. That's not his fault, and by your standard a Yankee basically cannot win the MVP. I hate that concept as much as the one saying you can't give the MVP to a guy who doesn't make the playoffs.

MuertoDesagradecido · 10-01-2006, 03:34 AM

dola,

Also, Jeter has more than 150% the value of either of those guys, so I would really say he's "barely" the best player on his own team. By that standard, Frank Thomas is "barely" better than Nick Swisher.

MuertoDesagradecido · 10-01-2006, 03:37 AM

trola,

And, yes, I know I'm defending Jeter even though I voted for Hafner, but it's really six of one half-dozen of the other for me.

magnet · 10-01-2006, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MuertoDesagradecido

trola,

And, yes, I know I'm defending Jeter even though I voted for Hafner, but it's really six of one half-dozen of the other for me.

What do you think of Thomas for comeback player?

MuertoDesagradecido · 10-01-2006, 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magnet

What do you think of Thomas for comeback player?

Hey, I'll give him that, but MVP votes over Jeter would be a travesty.

10-01-2006, 09:20 AM

I always love discussions like this. It's inevitable that someone brings up the lineup around a player as if that makes his job of hitting the ball easier or something. I'm pretty sure they pitch every hitter to get them out. They don't say, here, take this base. No really, take it. Please. Take it... here, take another!

sixfour210 · 10-01-2006, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MuertoDesagradecido

I just can't blame Derek Jeter for playing for a good team. That's not his fault, and by your standard a Yankee basically cannot win the MVP. I hate that concept as much as the one saying you can't give the MVP to a guy who doesn't make the playoffs.

You can hate it all you want to, but that doesn't make it any less true. A team with many good players logically cannot have the MOST valuable player in the league unless the player puts up video game type numbers. Logically speaking, if two players put up the same stats, the player playing on the team with the weaker lineup would be more valuable than the player playing in the stronger one.

So, Jeter playing on the Yankees DOES hurt him because he is les valuable to his team than a guy like Hafner or Thomas...that's IF you're talking about VALUE and not just overall great stats. This is why I'm not as into just comparing stats when talking about the MVP award, you need to talk about stats RELATIVE TO THEIR TEAM.

sixfour210 · 10-01-2006, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avwjase

I always love discussions like this. It's inevitable that someone brings up the lineup around a player as if that makes his job of hitting the ball easier or something. I'm pretty sure they pitch every hitter to get them out. They don't say, here, take this base. No really, take it. Please. Take it... here, take another!

Actually there is such a thing as "protection" in a lineup where a pitcher would be less willing to pitch around you based on who is hitting behind you and Jeter always has a more dangerous hitter behind him than any MVP candidate in the league pretty much.

Not to mention that if the lineup you're in gives you more opportunity to hit batters in because people get on base for you more often than in worse lineups. And the reverse, where you're able to score more runs because people behind you are able to hit you in more often than in worse lineups.

So as long as you don't bring up stats like runs scored and RBI, I'm fine with the Jeter for MVP discussion, because his value decreases at that point. And you must also compare that value with his lineup and then compare that to the other candidates and their respective lineups. Comparing stats at face value does nothing when trying to figure out how valuable a player is to his team.

If you want to do that, then why didn't guys like Andres Galarraga and Dante Bichette win MVP Awards? Larry Walker only won it because he put up video game numbers that one year. My point is that your lineup has to matter when talking about VALUE to your team. How could you not take the rest of the team into consideration when talking about the VALUE to a player's team? Sounds pretty contradictory not to.

MuertoDesagradecido · 10-01-2006, 12:50 PM

Jeter has the most Win Shares in either league, I just don't see how he can possibly be less valuable than Frank Thomas or Jermaine Dye.

MorseMoose · 10-01-2006, 12:59 PM

Of the guys in the poll and Justin Morneau...

I would not be surprised if any of these guys won it:
David Ortiz, Johan Santana, Joe Mauer, Derek Jeter, Justin Morneau

The rest, I would have varying degrees of surprisedness.

bigMatt · 10-01-2006, 01:15 PM

How does Justin Morneau miss your list? His season is MVP calibre, and is substantially better than several listed.

mlyons · 10-01-2006, 02:09 PM

The problem with Santana, Morneau, and Mauer is that they can't even lay a definite claim to being the MVP of their team, let alone the league.

sixfour210 · 10-01-2006, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MuertoDesagradecido

Jeter has the most Win Shares in either league, I just don't see how he can possibly be less valuable than Frank Thomas or Jermaine Dye.

What source are you using?

But I don't see how Jeter's offensive win share total could be that high when it's supposed to be based on runs created. Jeter only has one more total base than A-Rod this year.

mlyons · 10-01-2006, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixfour210

What source are you using?

But I don't see how Jeter's offensive win share total could be that high when it's supposed to be based on runs created. Jeter only has one more total base than A-Rod this year.

There are positional adjustments to win shares. If a shortstop and a third baseman were to have exactly the same offensive seasons, the shortstop would receive more win shares.

magnet · 10-01-2006, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlyons

There are positional adjustments to win shares. If a shortstop and a third baseman were to have exactly the same offensive seasons, the shortstop would receive more win shares.

That is why there are defensive winshares. Again, what source are you using? HBT combines batting and fielding winshares.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/st...stName=morneau

mlyons · 10-01-2006, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magnet

That is why there are defensive winshares. Again, what source are you using? HBT combines batting and fielding winshares.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/st...stName=morneau

I'm using THT's winshares, same as you. I was always under the impression that there was some sort of positional adjustment involved in the offensive side of the equation, though. I could very well be wrong -- I don't use them very often.

EDIT: Yup, I'm definitely wrong about that. Sorry.

View Poll Results: Who da man?
Miguel Tejada	0	0%
David Ortiz	7	11.86%
Jonathan Papelbon	0	0%
Jermaine Dye	2	3.39%
Grady Sizemore	2	3.39%
Travis Hafner	7	11.86%
Curtis Granderson	1	1.69%
Francisco Rodriguez	0	0%
Johan Santana	5	8.47%
Joe Mauer	15	25.42%
Derek Jeter	18	30.51%
Nick Swisher	1	1.69%
Ichiro Suzuki	0	0%
Michael Young	0	0%
Roy Halladay	1	1.69%
Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

10-01-2006, 02:35 AM	#42
mikev Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 4,014	I didn't say he'd win it, but he should get votes. I would vote for him ahead of Jeter. __________________ Global Unified Baseball Association - Vice Commish and Oakland Oaks GM

10-01-2006, 03:13 AM	#44
mikev Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 4,014	Giambi: .252/.411/.555 - 45.6 VORP, .319 EQA, 5.6 WARP1 A-Rod: .289/.391/.514 - 49.2 VORP, .304 EQA, 5.4 WARP1 Jeter is barely the best player on his own team, which brings back the "best player" VS "most valuable" award. Yes, Jeter has had an excellent season, but he was not as valuable to the Yankees as Thomas was to the A's. Just for a second, let's pretend Jeter breaks his ankle during the All Star Game and is out the rest of the year. The Yanks 1) have the means to go and get a replacement for nothing more than the cost of absorbing a huge contract (note the Abreu deal after losing Sheffield and Matsui), and 2) have quite a few other spectacular players in the lineup. If the A's had lost Thomas for a signifigant amount of time, they'd be relying on Eric Chavez and his .239 with 20 homers to hit cleanup :P __________________ Global Unified Baseball Association - Vice Commish and Oakland Oaks GM

10-01-2006, 02:09 PM	#56
mlyons Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 3,725	The problem with Santana, Morneau, and Mauer is that they can't even lay a definite claim to being the MVP of their team, let alone the league. __________________ Things can always be worse.

10-01-2006, 02:32 AM	#41
MuertoDesagradecido Major Leagues Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Saint Francisco Posts: 436 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Thomas has had a nice bounce-back season, is the best hitter on the A's, and an inner-circle HOF player, but no way is he the MVP this season. Also, the A's wouldn't be in third place without him. You could make an argument for second, but Thomas hasn't been worth thirteen wins.

10-01-2006, 02:43 AM	#43
MuertoDesagradecido Major Leagues Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Saint Francisco Posts: 436 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Jeter: .354/.418/.435 - 76.3 VORP, .309 EQA, 8.9 WARP1 Thomas: .270/.381/.540 - 39.9 VORP, .299 EQA, 4.4 WARP1 Jeter has outhit Thomas this year and is a shortstop to boot. I find that position hard to defend (no pun intended). Jeter has been nearly twice the player as the Big Hurt this season.

10-01-2006, 03:31 AM	#45
MuertoDesagradecido Major Leagues Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Saint Francisco Posts: 436 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	I just can't blame Derek Jeter for playing for a good team. That's not his fault, and by your standard a Yankee basically cannot win the MVP. I hate that concept as much as the one saying you can't give the MVP to a guy who doesn't make the playoffs.

10-01-2006, 03:34 AM	#46
MuertoDesagradecido Major Leagues Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Saint Francisco Posts: 436 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	dola, Also, Jeter has more than 150% the value of either of those guys, so I would really say he's "barely" the best player on his own team. By that standard, Frank Thomas is "barely" better than Nick Swisher.

10-01-2006, 03:37 AM	#47
MuertoDesagradecido Major Leagues Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Saint Francisco Posts: 436 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	trola, And, yes, I know I'm defending Jeter even though I voted for Hafner, but it's really six of one half-dozen of the other for me.

10-01-2006, 09:20 AM	#50
avwjase Guest Posts: n/a	I always love discussions like this. It's inevitable that someone brings up the lineup around a player as if that makes his job of hitting the ball easier or something. I'm pretty sure they pitch every hitter to get them out. They don't say, here, take this base. No really, take it. Please. Take it... here, take another!

10-01-2006, 12:50 PM	#53
MuertoDesagradecido Major Leagues Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Saint Francisco Posts: 436 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Jeter has the most Win Shares in either league, I just don't see how he can possibly be less valuable than Frank Thomas or Jermaine Dye.

10-01-2006, 12:59 PM	#54
MorseMoose Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 6,023 Infractions: 1/1 (1)	Of the guys in the poll and Justin Morneau... I would not be surprised if any of these guys won it: David Ortiz, Johan Santana, Joe Mauer, Derek Jeter, Justin Morneau The rest, I would have varying degrees of surprisedness.

10-01-2006, 01:15 PM	#55
bigMatt Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kansas Posts: 2,375	How does Justin Morneau miss your list? His season is MVP calibre, and is substantially better than several listed.