National League MVP 2006 Poll - Page 3

10-01-2006, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixfour210

I wouldn't be so sure of that. I was at Ryan Howard bobble-head day at Citizens Bank Park this year and it was their first ever sell out at that park.

Fans in philly are the worst to their players...but they love Ryan Howard. Not to say that they love him more than NY fans love Jeter but are we talkin $20 million more? I don't think we can automatically say that for sure.

Not only do the Yankees have the largest market in baseball but Jeter has been one of the faces of baseball for the past seven years. You see his face all over all kinds of MLB merchendise. Outside of Michael Jordan I'd be willing to bet Jeter is the most heavily marketed athlete in sports over the past 10 years. He's the MLB's sacred cash cow.

sixfour210 · 10-01-2006, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avwjase

Not only do the Yankees have the largest market in baseball but Jeter has been one of the faces of baseball for the past seven years. You see his face all over all kinds of MLB merchendise. Outside of Michael Jordan I'd be willing to bet Jeter is the most heavily marketed athlete in sports over the past 10 years. He's the MLB's sacred cash cow.

Understood, but I was talking about "value" in terms of dollars brought in relative to dollars spent. All I'm saying is that I would take Howard right now if I was trying to start a business, not the costly Jeter.

For every million dollars Howard brings in, Jeter would have to bring in $58,028,169 to break even. And with all of the stars in NY, people would still buy Yankee tickets even if Jeter wasn't there. Not the same for Philly, who has only sold out one game in their new park...Ryan Howard bobble head day.

mlyons · 10-01-2006, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixfour210

Understood, but I was talking about "value" in terms of dollars brought in relative to dollars spent. All I'm saying is that I would take Howard right now if I was trying to start a business, not the costly Jeter.

For every million dollars Howard brings in, Jeter would have to bring in $58,028,169 to break even. And with all of the stars in NY, people would still buy Yankee tickets even if Jeter wasn't there. Not the same for Philly, who has only sold out one game in their new park...Ryan Howard bobble head day.

That doesn't make any sense. If Jeter's making $20 million and generating $40 million in revenue and Howard's making $500,000 and generating $15 million in revenue, Jeter's still creating more profit than Howard. I don't know why you're multiplying.

sixfour210 · 10-01-2006, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlyons

That doesn't make any sense. If Jeter's making $20 million and generating $40 million in revenue and Howard's making $500,000 and generating $15 million in revenue, Jeter's still creating more profit than Howard. I don't know why you're multiplying.

You know what, you're right...I don't know why I even said that

.

What I meant to say was that you can't necessarily say that Jeter brings in $40 million in the first place. Howard's impact on the Phillies is more measurable than Jeter's on the Yankees, at least at this point. Like I said though, Yankee stadium will still be full if they get rid of Jeter, the Phillies won't be as fortunate without Howard right now.

I just think the ticket sales that Howard generates at least approaches the difference in merchandise sales generated by Jeter.

Jordan · 10-01-2006, 04:37 PM

Defense is pretty important to baseball. But all these stats brought up don't have as much value in this particular case, IMO. I just don't think you can give an MVP award to a guy who has people like Pedro Martinez, Tom Glavine, Billy Wagner, Paul Lo Duca, Jose Reyes, David Wright, and Carlos Delgado on the same team as him. Beltran is valuable to the Mets, but just how valuable? I mean, he has all those guys to back him up.

Who has Ryan Howard had? Chase Utley, Jimmy Rollins, Pat Burrell?

Who has Pujols had? Carpenter, Rolen (injured, not at his best)

Cabrera...well, let's face it, not much.

I think Albert won the award today. To suck as much as the Cards have these last two weeks, and to make the playoffs, is rather stunning. But he kept them alive with those two homers. That's Glanville-esque clutchness.

mlyons · 10-01-2006, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordan

Who has Ryan Howard had? Chase Utley, Jimmy Rollins, Pat Burrell?

Chase Utley ain't exactly chopped liver. He's been the best second baseman in the National League by a huge margin this season, and a guy who should be getting some MVP votes. Rollins has also been excellent, and they had Bobby Abreu for two thirds of the season as well. The Phillies weren't the top scoring team in the NL because of Ryan Howard alone.

Jordan · 10-01-2006, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlyons

Chase Utley ain't exactly chopped liver. He's been the best second baseman in the National League by a huge margin this season, and a guy who should be getting some MVP votes. Rollins has also been excellent, and they had Bobby Abreu for two thirds of the season as well. The Phillies weren't the top scoring team in the NL because of Ryan Howard alone.

That's my point. I was trying to compare each candidate's supporting cast. I forgot about Abreu though

swampdragon · 10-01-2006, 09:32 PM

If Pujols hadn't been injured this would be automatic. I think it's just about a dead heat between Pujols and Howard, and I believe Howard will win.

ctorg · 10-02-2006, 07:49 AM

I think it's between Pujols and Howard. Like swampy said, I think it comes down to the injury to Pujols. Pujols was probably a hair more valuable for the games he played, but the few more games Howard played make him come out on top in my book.

Jason Moyer · 10-02-2006, 11:41 AM

Value in baseball is determined by how you perform vs other players playing your position in the league and not by how good you are relative to your teammates. I don't like the idea of penalizing someone for having really good or really bad teammates.

That said, giving Ryan Howard credit as the key contributor for the Phillies is ignoring what Jimmy Rollins and Chase Utley did this year. All 3 of those guys have a legitimate claim to being the key to the Phillies "success" this year. Jimmy Rollins might currently be the most underrated player in baseball.

andymac · 10-02-2006, 12:14 PM

How do you put four pitchers in this poll and leave Roy Oswalt and Chris Carpenter off?

Anyway, my rankings of this poll.

1. Albert Pujols
2. Miguel Cabrera
3. Carlos Beltran
4. Brandon Webb
5. Bronson Arroyo
6. John Smoltz
7. Lance Berkman
8. David Wright
9. Jason Bay
10. Ryan Howard (There is a defensive aspect to baseball, folks, and Howard was horrible at it this season.)
11. Alfonso Soriano
12. Carlos Zambrano
13. Rafael Furcal
14. Matt Holliday
15. Adrian Gonzalez

marc · 10-02-2006, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymac

How do you put four pitchers in this poll and leave Roy Oswalt and Chris Carpenter off?

Anyway, my rankings of this poll.

1. Albert Pujols
2. Miguel Cabrera
3. Carlos Beltran
4. Brandon Webb
5. Bronson Arroyo
6. John Smoltz
7. Lance Berkman
8. David Wright
9. Jason Bay
10. Ryan Howard (There is a defensive aspect to baseball, folks, and Howard was horrible at it this season.)
11. Alfonso Soriano
12. Carlos Zambrano
13. Rafael Furcal
14. Matt Holliday
15. Adrian Gonzalez

I'm sorry man but having Arroyo, Smoltz, and Jason Bay ahead of Ryan Howard on an MVP ballot is a travesty.

andymac · 10-02-2006, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marc

I'm sorry man but having Arroyo, Smoltz, and Jason Bay ahead of Ryan Howard on an MVP ballot is a travesty.

Well, I tend to downgrade players who could pretty much be outfielded by just about any player who wears a baseball uniform for a living. Howard would've actually slightly improved his value in my eyes if he was a DH...and I despise the idea of a DH winning an MVP.

marc · 10-02-2006, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymac

Well, I tend to downgrade players who could pretty much be outfielded by just about any player who wears a baseball uniform for a living. Howard would've actually improved his value in my eyes if he was a DH...and I despise the idea of a DH winning an MVP.

You can't possibly convince me that Howard is a worse 1B than Bonds a LF during some of his later MVP's.

Smoltz and Arroyo would have had to win 25 games with a sub 1.5 era to equal the type of value that Howard brought offensively. Since they were nowhere in that stratosphere it's pretty inconceivable for anyone to pick them over Howard.

andymac · 10-02-2006, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marc

Smoltz and Arroyo would have had to win 25 games with a sub 1.5 era to equal the type of value that Howard brought offensively. Since they were nowhere in that stratosphere it's pretty inconceivable for anyone to pick them over Howard.

I really think you are overvaluating Howard's offensive output (or undervaluing starting pitchers). Howard was good, but it isn't hard to find good hitters at first base and it isn't like he was even the best hitter at that position.

darkhorse · 10-02-2006, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymac

How do you put four pitchers in this poll and leave Roy Oswalt and Chris Carpenter off?

Because neither is the best player on their team and have zero chance of winning.

andymac · 10-02-2006, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkhorse

Because neither is the best player on their team and have zero chance of winning.

I see now...didn't realize your methodology for selecting players at the time.

mikev · 10-02-2006, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marc

You can't possibly convince me that Howard is a worse 1B than Bonds a LF during some of his later MVP's.

I could convince you that his offensive numbers were so ridiculously far and away better than anybody else in baseball that it's like a video game though, right?

marc · 10-02-2006, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikev

I could convince you that his offensive numbers were so ridiculously far and away better than anybody else in baseball that it's like a video game though, right?

Of course.

marc · 10-02-2006, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymac

I really think you are overvaluating Howard's offensive output (or undervaluing starting pitchers). Howard was good, but it isn't hard to find good hitters at first base and it isn't like he was even the best hitter at that position.

Possibly but my point is more that you're overvaluing the defense that ANY 1B can bring to the table and that you're exaggerating the value that ONE starting pitcher can have on a team over the course of a season, particularly when their numbers aren't exactly staggering.

Anyways, it's just a stupid poll being debated by a bunch of sports geeks so I'll let this one go until January/February when I'll be sure to bring this back up to point out how out of line you are while you're slobbering over some mid-major from Missouri.

View Poll Results: Who da man?
Brandon Webb	0	0%
John Smoltz	0	0%
Carlos Zambrano	0	0%
Bronson Arroyo	1	1.54%
Matt Holliday	0	0%
Miguel Cabrera	1	1.54%
Lance Berkman	0	0%
Rafael Furcal	0	0%
Carlos Beltran	3	4.62%
David Wright	0	0%
Ryan Howard	25	38.46%
Jason Bay	0	0%
Adrian Gonzalez	0	0%
Albert Pujols	33	50.77%
Alfonso Soriano	2	3.08%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

10-01-2006, 09:32 PM	#48
swampdragon Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Lonely Mountain Posts: 2,509	If Pujols hadn't been injured this would be automatic. I think it's just about a dead heat between Pujols and Howard, and I believe Howard will win. __________________ “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies." -- C.S. Lewis

10-02-2006, 07:49 AM	#49
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	I think it's between Pujols and Howard. Like swampy said, I think it comes down to the injury to Pujols. Pujols was probably a hair more valuable for the games he played, but the few more games Howard played make him come out on top in my book. __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

10-02-2006, 11:41 AM	#50
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,066	Value in baseball is determined by how you perform vs other players playing your position in the league and not by how good you are relative to your teammates. I don't like the idea of penalizing someone for having really good or really bad teammates. That said, giving Ryan Howard credit as the key contributor for the Phillies is ignoring what Jimmy Rollins and Chase Utley did this year. All 3 of those guys have a legitimate claim to being the key to the Phillies "success" this year. Jimmy Rollins might currently be the most underrated player in baseball. __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

10-02-2006, 12:14 PM	#51
andymac Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Effingham, IL Posts: 5,725	How do you put four pitchers in this poll and leave Roy Oswalt and Chris Carpenter off? Anyway, my rankings of this poll. 1. Albert Pujols 2. Miguel Cabrera 3. Carlos Beltran 4. Brandon Webb 5. Bronson Arroyo 6. John Smoltz 7. Lance Berkman 8. David Wright 9. Jason Bay 10. Ryan Howard (There is a defensive aspect to baseball, folks, and Howard was horrible at it this season.) 11. Alfonso Soriano 12. Carlos Zambrano 13. Rafael Furcal 14. Matt Holliday 15. Adrian Gonzalez __________________ June Madness: Links FTB: andymac Last edited by andymac; 10-02-2006 at 12:35 PM.

10-01-2006, 04:37 PM	#45
Jordan All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Chi Suburbs now... Posts: 1,972	Defense is pretty important to baseball. But all these stats brought up don't have as much value in this particular case, IMO. I just don't think you can give an MVP award to a guy who has people like Pedro Martinez, Tom Glavine, Billy Wagner, Paul Lo Duca, Jose Reyes, David Wright, and Carlos Delgado on the same team as him. Beltran is valuable to the Mets, but just how valuable? I mean, he has all those guys to back him up. Who has Ryan Howard had? Chase Utley, Jimmy Rollins, Pat Burrell? Who has Pujols had? Carpenter, Rolen (injured, not at his best) Cabrera...well, let's face it, not much. I think Albert won the award today. To suck as much as the Cards have these last two weeks, and to make the playoffs, is rather stunning. But he kept them alive with those two homers. That's Glanville-esque clutchness.