National League MVP 2006 Poll - Page 2

MuertoDesagradecido · 09-30-2006, 03:50 PM

Pujols by a hair, but I wouldn't be upset if Howard or (fat chance) Cabrera walked away with it.

darkhorse · 09-30-2006, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlyons

In other words, when adjusting for position, you should only do it once.

If your position has 3-4 times the defensive value of the other, it's still quite an adjustment.

09-30-2006, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkhorse

They've both created more runs at the plate than Beltran, but the replacement level for offense at 1B is much higher than in CF, AND Beltran has far more defensive value.

Equivalent averages for each MLB position in 2006 below.

P 0.133
C 0.252
1B 0.279
2B 0.255
3B 0.268
SS 0.254
LF 0.271
CF 0.261
RF 0.268
Oth 0.265

Ok, and Pujols has a .350 (71 points higher than replacement) and Beltran has a .320 (59 points hither than replacement)... am I missing something? How is he a better replacement over the average CF'er than Pujols is over the average 1B? And it's not like Pujols is a liability with the glove. I know 1B is a far cry from CF but the cat can play a great 1B.

darkhorse · 09-30-2006, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avwjase

Ok, and Pujols has a .350 (71 points higher than replacement) and Beltran has a .320 (59 points hither than replacement)... am I missing something? How is he a better replacement over the average CF'er than Pujols is over the average 1B? And it's not like Pujols is a liability with the glove. I know 1B is a far cry from CF but the cat can play a great 1B.

It's actually .077 Pujols vs. .063 Beltran. You adjust for position offensively and Beltran pulls even with Howard, but Pujols still edges out Carlos. I'd still take Beltran, by a bit, once you factor in defense. But, good points on your part.

darkhorse · 09-30-2006, 04:55 PM

The one advantage Howard has over Pujols/Beltran is playing time. He's been healthy enough to appear in 157 games vs. 141/138 for Pujols/Beltran.

sixfour210 · 09-30-2006, 05:45 PM

As much as I want Howard to win it the year after he won the ROY, if Pujols wins it, I honestly can't be too upset seeing as how he's all the cardinals have pretty much in the way of offense.

You guys have been talking about stats alone here for at least the first page when you need to talk more about how much value the player adds to the team. In Pujols case, he's more valuable to his team than Howard, IMO. Although the Phillies would be in the crapper without Howard as well, the Cards would really be nowhere, especially with their pitching the way it is.

But yeah, I have a Howard bias being from South Jersey, so my vote goes to him.

GForce · 09-30-2006, 05:49 PM

Arguing Beltran has "no place" in this discussion is, quite frankly, absurd. That said, I'd still probably give it to Pujols or Howard.

GH

magnet · 09-30-2006, 05:53 PM

Should salary be considered in these races? It is Most Valuable Player, after all. Howard hit 58 HR on a 355K salary.

mlyons · 09-30-2006, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkhorse

If your position has 3-4 times the defensive value of the other, it's still quite an adjustment.

Where have you come up with that figure? The only study I've ever seen that compared the value of different defensive positions was tangotiger's study uzing UZR for players who played multiple positions, which basically concludes that an average CF is worth around 13 runs per 162 games over an average first baseman in terms of skill level. Coincidentally enough, that's just about the difference in offensive production between the two positions (in the opposite direction, natch). Where did you pull the 3-4 times figure from?

mlyons · 09-30-2006, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magnet

Should salary be considered in these races? It is Most Valuable Player, after all. Howard hit 58 HR on a 355K salary.

You can if you want -- it doesn't really make sense to me, though, unless you're planning on only giving the MVP to players with under three years of service time.

magnet · 09-30-2006, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlyons

You can if you want -- it doesn't really make sense to me, though, unless you're planning on only giving the MVP to players with under three years of service time.

That is the problem with it, that's for sure. Just throwing ideas out there.

mlyons · 09-30-2006, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magnet

That is the problem with it, that's for sure. Just throwing ideas out there.

I think once you start bringing money into the picture for these awards, they become much more difficult. Do you try to quantify the amount of revenue players bring in, as well? Ichiro shoots way up the list if you do that, for example.

magnet · 09-30-2006, 06:22 PM

Thats very true, too. The only way I could see using salary and revenue brought in would be to break ties.

If we use revenue generated heavily, Jeter would win every year

sixfour210 · 09-30-2006, 09:10 PM

Revenue maybe, value no. You have to remember that the Yanks are paying Jeter 20 mil a year. The Phillies profit way more from Ryan Howard than the Yanks do with Jeter.

mlyons · 09-30-2006, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixfour210

Revenue maybe, value no. You have to remember that the Yanks are paying Jeter 20 mil a year. The Phillies profit way more from Ryan Howard than the Yanks do with Jeter.

I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that Derek Jeter generates more than $20 million more in revenue than Ryan Howard.

Erich Ingram · 09-30-2006, 09:57 PM

What I want to know is how does Jose Reyes not make this poll, and where is the love for Chase Utley or Jimmy Rollins

Rasmuth · 09-30-2006, 10:30 PM

you take Howard off the Phillies and there is no run at the playoffs for that team. He is the most valuable player to his team...I put Pujols second.

mlyons · 09-30-2006, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasmuth

you take Howard off the Phillies and there is no run at the playoffs for that team. He is the most valuable player to his team...I put Pujols second.

Do you really think the Cardinals would have had a chance without Pujols?

sixfour210 · 09-30-2006, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlyons

I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that Derek Jeter generates more than $20 million more in revenue than Ryan Howard.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. I was at Ryan Howard bobble-head day at Citizens Bank Park this year and it was their first ever sell out at that park.

Fans in philly are the worst to their players...but they love Ryan Howard. Not to say that they love him more than NY fans love Jeter but are we talkin $20 million more? I don't think we can automatically say that for sure.

mlyons · 10-01-2006, 08:34 AM

I wasn't being sarcastic when I said I was going out on a limb.

View Poll Results: Who da man?
Brandon Webb	0	0%
John Smoltz	0	0%
Carlos Zambrano	0	0%
Bronson Arroyo	1	1.54%
Matt Holliday	0	0%
Miguel Cabrera	1	1.54%
Lance Berkman	0	0%
Rafael Furcal	0	0%
Carlos Beltran	3	4.62%
David Wright	0	0%
Ryan Howard	25	38.46%
Jason Bay	0	0%
Adrian Gonzalez	0	0%
Albert Pujols	33	50.77%
Alfonso Soriano	2	3.08%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

09-30-2006, 05:45 PM	#26
sixfour210 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,227	As much as I want Howard to win it the year after he won the ROY, if Pujols wins it, I honestly can't be too upset seeing as how he's all the cardinals have pretty much in the way of offense. You guys have been talking about stats alone here for at least the first page when you need to talk more about how much value the player adds to the team. In Pujols case, he's more valuable to his team than Howard, IMO. Although the Phillies would be in the crapper without Howard as well, the Cards would really be nowhere, especially with their pitching the way it is. But yeah, I have a Howard bias being from South Jersey, so my vote goes to him. __________________

09-30-2006, 09:10 PM	#34
sixfour210 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,227	Revenue maybe, value no. You have to remember that the Yanks are paying Jeter 20 mil a year. The Phillies profit way more from Ryan Howard than the Yanks do with Jeter. __________________

09-30-2006, 09:57 PM	#36
Erich Ingram Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 2,199	What I want to know is how does Jose Reyes not make this poll, and where is the love for Chase Utley or Jimmy Rollins __________________ Erich Ingram (Rolen17) IOSBL San Diego Aztecs 2010, 2012,2013, 2014 World Series Champions Maelstrom Padres 2026 World Champions eMLB Washington Nationals

09-30-2006, 10:30 PM	#37
Rasmuth All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Upstate Western NY Posts: 1,760	you take Howard off the Phillies and there is no run at the playoffs for that team. He is the most valuable player to his team...I put Pujols second. __________________ http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...?bandID=250426

09-30-2006, 03:50 PM	#21
MuertoDesagradecido Major Leagues Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Saint Francisco Posts: 436 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Pujols by a hair, but I wouldn't be upset if Howard or (fat chance) Cabrera walked away with it.

09-30-2006, 04:55 PM	#25
darkhorse Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: fort worth, tx Posts: 10,850	The one advantage Howard has over Pujols/Beltran is playing time. He's been healthy enough to appear in 157 games vs. 141/138 for Pujols/Beltran.

09-30-2006, 05:49 PM	#27
GForce Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,458 Infractions: 0/2 (2)	Arguing Beltran has "no place" in this discussion is, quite frankly, absurd. That said, I'd still probably give it to Pujols or Howard. GH

09-30-2006, 05:53 PM	#28
magnet Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,029	Should salary be considered in these races? It is Most Valuable Player, after all. Howard hit 58 HR on a 355K salary.

09-30-2006, 06:22 PM	#33
magnet Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,029	Thats very true, too. The only way I could see using salary and revenue brought in would be to break ties. If we use revenue generated heavily, Jeter would win every year

10-01-2006, 08:34 AM	#40
mlyons Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 3,725	I wasn't being sarcastic when I said I was going out on a limb. __________________ Things can always be worse.