Your opinions please...

Marc Duffy · 09-27-2006, 02:38 PM

I'm a regular reader of Calvert Games blog. I often find that Chris is quick to post stuff when it's going wrong but doesn't help us too much to address the issues. I like the blog though and I respect Chris for "keeping it real" and not sugar coating stuff.

I just read his latest blog on the game...

http://www.calvertgames.com/cgblog/2.../final-review/

I'd love to hear your opinions?

Is he right? Is he wrong? Where did we go wrong? Where did we get things right? Do you think the merger is a success or a failure?

Fried Gelatin · 09-27-2006, 02:51 PM

http://www.spca.org/images/content/p...lder/33068.jpg

RBLwebguy · 09-27-2006, 02:53 PM

One thing I don't "get"

Quote:

My online league conversion failed. We had to restart our league from scratch because of computer AI problems and game crashes.

Well, he could have kept the league going in Version 6.5. If he has restarted his league, is he using V2006? If so, it must be working well enough to play that league.

Personally, I haven't experienced any crashes or major bombs. I am testing an online league which includes Markus in hopes we can make online play better in future versions. I have seen some advancements in the new version for online leagues which I really like. There have been suggestions for more improvements.

I agree with Markus on him having to do a re-write of the code to move forward to make future versions bigger and better.

Being part of the testing group, I have seen the enormity of the project and how things had to be rushed some to get the product out as promised, but at the same time, I seen the company and Markus work very hard to patch everything plus adding many new helpful features.

Is the merger the best thing. That I can't answer, but does appear on the outside as a good thing as Markus was able to use SI's expertise.

I wasn't a huge fan of the UI, but have become accustomed to it and it isn't a huse issue anymore. I prefer the older versions for simplicity of course.

I haven't been convinced to move my leagues over to the new version yet either.

I think the review is a bit harsh.

Stu · 09-27-2006, 02:54 PM

From my experience, playing OOTP 2006 online has been a blast. We just finished our first season and other than the issues in Patch 2 (which were fixed in Patch 3) we havn't had any trouble.

My personal opinion is that people havn't given the online game a chance. I understand there's been some issues converting leagues. Mine was a new league so I can't speak to that, but we havn't seen any bugs or major issues since patch 3 was released.

RBLwebguy · 09-27-2006, 02:57 PM

I did convert some of my leagues for test purposes and the results were as good as previous versions, other than loss of history of course. I just haven't moved them onto OOTP2006 yet and that may come after I get a better feel for the online functionality, or may wait until 2007 version.

I am part of another V2006 league which seems to be working just fine as well.

Fried Gelatin · 09-27-2006, 02:58 PM

This post has been deleted because it did not follow the forum rules.

DCG12 · 09-27-2006, 02:59 PM

I don't play on-line so I can't speak to the frustrations of on-line leagues, but my first impression while reading that was some of the people (trolls?) who come on the board and scream that the game doesn't work but never offer any info so people can help them make it work. I am very happy with my solo league and think the last patch fixed most everything that I was looking for.

As for the merger I think over all it has gone well as can be expected and will only get better. I do think that Markus needs to stop trying to be all things to all people.

Sometimes I get the impression that some people come to the board and make outlandish requests just to see if they can get Markus to try and add it to the game.

OOTP is reaching a point where if he keeps adding "options" it is going to be impossible to find ones way through the set-up process. Also in my opinion having so many different ways to configure the game leads to some problems in the AI because no one anticipated the exact set up that was chosen so it was never tested.

LeiterFanatic · 09-27-2006, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

I'm a regular reader of Calvert Games blog. I often find that Chris is quick to post stuff when it's going wrong but doesn't help us too much to address the issues. I like the blog though and I respect Chris for "keeping it real" and not sugar coating stuff.

I just read his latest blog on the game...

http://www.calvertgames.com/cgblog/2.../final-review/

I'd love to hear your opinions?

Is he right? Is he wrong? Where did we go wrong? Where did we get things right? Do you think the merger is a success or a failure?

Marc,
I hope this thread can be something constructive. It seems to me a bait for the two camps on here to post the same tired "I love it" and "I hate it" threads. I think if you want an objective idea of if the merger was a success and if SI and OOTP have scored or not, just go back and look at server traffic on these boards during the 6.0 days and compare to now. This game doesn't seem to be generating the kind of long-term day in and day out passion that previous releases had. I am astonished that threads stay so close to the top even days after someone posts in them. That tells me that the community isn't that energized about the game, and no, I dont buy the "everyone is happily playing and not posting" arguements either. The game has potential and works well for some, but the focus on world leagues was the worst thing SI brought into the mix. Go for it and good luck to SI but it isnt my cup of tea, really.

RBLwebguy · 09-27-2006, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fried Gelatin

Maybe people haven't given the online a chance because the singleplayer is such a bug-filled pile of ****.

You must be playing a different game, because I haven't had any issues.

nanaimo · 09-27-2006, 03:00 PM

Pretty short review that didn't get into specifics, but its hard to argue with. I'm not a big time poster on these boards, but I do read them often. I read them because its entertaining to read the complaints about the game and the hacks and slashes against those that complain. In fact, I've spent more time reading the forum than I've played OOTP2006. That says something doesn't it?

I love OOTP games. I have since Season Ticket 2003 been a regular costumer. I still participate heavily in a 6.5 league, and in fact have signed up for a pending 2006 league. I have no idea how well the game does or does not work for online use, but I do know that 6.5 is a good platform that allows my current league to really enjoy themselves.

Ultimately I have to agree with the reviewer though. I'm usually the guy that loves depth. The more the better. I respect what was tried with this game, but think in the end that it was too radical of a change. The biggest mistake was making a huge change while at the same time ditching game content that fans had been familiar with and liked. It served no purpose other than to alienate fans like myself who really wanted to like this game, but found it just too hard to get into. It didn't help that there were a lot of bugs with the game, but that is an industry wide issue I find with a lot of games I buy.

I'm still trying the new game out (I've started three different solo leagues) Ultimately I'd bet I'll buy the next game, but you only get one more chance with my cash. OOTP has to listen to its followers that are demoralized. The game might be good enough now, and it IS time to move away from patches to a new game, but the next game should concentrate on familiarizing itself again with fans that prefer 6.5, even while keeping some of the cool new features of the new game.

Marc Duffy · 09-27-2006, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeiterFanatic

Marc,
I hope this thread can be something constructive. It seems to me a bait for the two camps on here to post the same tired "I love it" and "I hate it" threads. I think if you want an objective idea of if the merger was a success and if SI and OOTP have scored or not, just go back and look at server traffic on these boards during the 6.0 days and compare to now. This game doesn't seem to be generating the kind of long-term day in and day out passion that previous releases had. I am astonished that threads stay so close to the top even days after someone posts in them. That tells me that the community isn't that energized about the game, and no, I dont buy the "everyone is happily playing and not posting" arguements either. The game has potential and works well for some, but the focus on world leagues was the worst thing SI brought into the mix. Go for it and good luck to SI but it isnt my cup of tea, really.

I like reading Chris stuff, he calls it how he sees it. What I want is to see what people think about what he wrote in a constructive manner.

RBLwebguy · 09-27-2006, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nanaimo

Pretty short review that didn't get into specifics, but its hard to argue with. I'm not a big time poster on these boards, but I do read them often. I read them because its entertaining to read the complaints about the game and the hacks and slashes against those that complain. In fact, I've spent more time reading the forum than I've played OOTP2006. That says something doesn't it?

I love OOTP games. I have since Season Ticket 2003 been a regular costumer. I still participate heavily in a 6.5 league, and in fact have signed up for a pending 2006 league. I have no idea how well the game does or does not work for online use, but I do know that 6.5 is a good platform that allows my current league to really enjoy themselves.

Ultimately I have to agree with the reviewer though. I'm usually the guy that loves depth. The more the better. I respect what was tried with this game, but think in the end that it was too radical of a change. The biggest mistake was making a huge change while at the same time ditching game content that fans had been familiar with and liked. It served no purpose other than to alienate fans like myself who really wanted to like this game, but found it just too hard to get into. It didn't help that there were a lot of bugs with the game, but that is an industry wide issue I find with a lot of games I buy.

I'm still trying the new game out (I've started three different solo leagues) Ultimately I'd bet I'll buy the next game, but you only get one more chance with my cash. OOTP has to listen to its followers that are demoralized. The game might be good enough now, and it IS time to move away from patches to a new game, but the next game should concentrate on familiarizing itself again with fans that prefer 6.5, even while keeping some of the cool new features of the new game.

When you say 6.5, do you mean the interface and simplicity of the game?

sixto · 09-27-2006, 03:21 PM

OOTP 2006 reminds me of the Arnold Palmer Golf Course Architect that came with Links, or the tools that enable users to create buildings of their own in SimCity. In both cases, the add-ons used packaged versions of professional software - to the point where in SimCity to create a building, you were basically doing what a real architect does in AutoCAD. Nearly impossible for the standard user to handle, and few tried. Those few who wanted to learn the professional software did beautiful things, and those things sustained the community.

Thing is, both SimCity and Links were fully working, low-bug products that stood alone as the tops in their areas. The difference between them and OOTP 2006 is that the complicated, option-driven issues that have made the game hard for me to enjoy are inextricable from the game at large. If I can't make a solo fictional league work perfectly, I should at least be able to run a historical league from 1980 - something that already happened and can be re-created - without trouble. And I can't.

Ultimately, I think the developers need to identify one, two, three core modes and make them airtight. Maybe like FM, OOTP should sim just the current season of MLB on into the future. Maybe it should do just present-day MLB plus historical seasons. Maybe historical seasons should be ditched but fictional leagues prioritized. Maybe it can fit all three. But trying to do all that, while enabling Moroccan leagues and financial coefficients and ticket prices...it was too ambitious, and too broad. The game lacks focus.

If people want all those options - and I always thought I did - then put that under the hood, a Golf Course Architect for OOTP. Then set your very talented community members to work making quickstarts and other mods. Don't subject the majority of the user base to features most of them could never hope to want.

I am not an online user of OOTP 2006 and can't speak to the critic's points, but for me, the strongest point in his post was that OOTP had things its users once could count on, and now cannot. Even such simple things as having pitcher screens depict pitching stats - I'm baffled at how three patches came and went and this wasn't addressed. These are steps backward, and that is something that users are understandably bitter about.

I'm a supporter of SIGames and will continue to be. You do what you do better than anyone. But if you set the bar high you have to clear it, and that didn't happen here.

1998 Yankees · 09-27-2006, 03:23 PM

I cannot comment too much because I am one of those "solo players" that he summarily dismisses in the first paragraph. Excuse me, are we chopped liver? As I have said elsewhere, OOTP 2006 is not perfect and I look forward to 2007 for various improvements. I am sure that there are a great many of us who feel that OOTP 2006 is not a failure at all, but a work in progress. If I end up spending $70 over two years for a really great game, then I'm fine with that.

OK, all of the above is non sequitur since it is not from "an online baseball perspective." I will comment further on only one aspect that I agreed with in the review, "the AI doing weird things unless you shut it down for every team and every level." This is true, I have seen it myself close up in the minor leagues, and OOTP would do well to focus on this for 2007.

nanaimo · 09-27-2006, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RBLwebguy

When you say 6.5, do you mean the interface and simplicity of the game?

Yes I guess so. What I'm saying is, that there were people like me that really loved version 6.5. I was excited about the new game, but dragging my brain from one game to the next was and is very hard because it was SO different. The old game was easier yes (though I think that it can be easy and still add depth) but it also had features and setups that I liked and was used too. I missed them in the new game. I had my ways that I liked to look at things in the old game and it was/is very hard to change. The new game was a total re-write, I get it. But it really should have tried to be loosely familiar in its general layout and accessiblity. That was the biggest barrier to me.

Joshv02 · 09-27-2006, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

I'm a regular reader of Calvert Games blog. I often find that Chris is quick to post stuff when it's going wrong but doesn't help us too much to address the issues. I like the blog though and I respect Chris for "keeping it real" and not sugar coating stuff.

I just read his latest blog on the game...

http://www.calvertgames.com/cgblog/2.../final-review/

I'd love to hear your opinions?

Is he right? Is he wrong? Where did we go wrong? Where did we get things right? Do you think the merger is a success or a failure?

I'm in the league for which Chris is the commish.

The game couldn't support a transfer to 2006. For whatever reason, players routinely switched teams, players were released by the AI, financial pages didn't make sense (two teams had the same cash, the same financial history, and the same current payroll - yet one was in the red, one black), and, finally, for no reason the game would crash at one screen (one team's transaction screen) over and over and over again.

This wasn't a matter of preference. It was a matter of experience.

I've no experienced this in solo leagues, though I've not played much. I like the feel of 2006 a lot more than 6.5, fwiw, and as very disappointed we couldn't move over to the new version.

That all said, the league has moved on and (scapping apx. 15 seasons of history) is starting a new league in 2006. We'll see how that one works.

1998 Yankees · 09-27-2006, 03:29 PM

One other thing. He's right about "If you do not believe my assessment, simply visit the technical report forum and comb through post after post of unresolved issues." I have not seen too many authoritative responses over there recently, and it does not look good, IMO, even if another patch is not forthcoming. Some analysis, some attempts at troubleshooting would be appreciated by the folks over there, I am sure.

cmdroverbite · 09-27-2006, 04:38 PM

I think it's both premature and an overstatement to call the OOTP/SI merger a failure: I believe that regardless of the present state of the game, the decision to re-write from scratch will turn out to be a good one long-term, I can't see why the publicity and distribution resources of SI can be a bad thing, and I expect that 2007 will be a significant improvement on 2006.

But he is right in a lot of areas, and not just about online play:

The AI makes terrible, nonsensical decisions, especially when confronted with the various real-world rosters that have been created. With the latest patch and the latest release of (IIRC) the CubbyFan rosters, the first two major AI transactions were the Cardinals offering Larry Walker a two-year extension at $15m a year and the Diamondbacks releasing (not waiving, releasing) Carlos Quentin. If FM 06/07 began every game with Spurs giving Edgar Davids an extension at 60,000 pounds a week and releasing Aaron Lennon on a free, people would be quite understandably miffed, no?

Financials end up being all out of whack unless artifical and unrealistic constraints are put on team budgets, like a salary cap.

The AI has no comprehension of how to manage money, and the game seems to regard the financial settings given during setup as rough guidelines at best.

Players are shuttled whimsically from one minor-league level to another, and moving them around is a massive pain in the neck, using the present interface. There is no obvious (or as far as I know, non-obvious) option for what I suspect a lot of players would like to do: have the AI make lineups and handle day-to-day stuff for minor-league teams while giving the human GM the sole power to move guys up or down levels.

The game lacks even some basic flavor of a baseball season. (E.g., the lack of news stories announcing major trades or the results of playoff series.) Maybe this is more of a priority for me than it is for some people, but this is one of the greatest strengths of the FM games and I suspect that the lack of it is a major barrier to entry for newbies who want a baseball text sim that is easy to pick up and play and feels like managing a baseball team. (Besides, news stories like these were in Baseball Mogul '03 ferchrissake, and it's tough to swallow a $30+ game that is trailing years-old versions of BBM in any significant respect.)

As to the Mac problems the reviewer brings up: I haven't personally encountered these problems, but I'm also not in an online league, so a lot of them don't apply to me.

What is good about OOTP 2006? First and foremost, it's an extremely solid -- not flawless but solid -- engine for the production of more or less realistic simulated baseball results. The next step going forward is to use that engine as the centerpiece of a fully realized baseball management game. I have confidence that this can and will be done well in the future, but the reviewer's job is not to cheerlead for what a game can be, it's to offer a straightforward opinion of whether a game is worth purchasing as it exists right now. Right now, I would maybe offer a qualified "yes," but I certainly wouldn't slag on anyone for saying "no."

headtrauma · 09-27-2006, 04:41 PM

As a long-time OOTP player (been playing since the first version in the late '90's), I think SI tried to do too much with OOTP2006 -- they listened to seemingly everyone when creating the game, but ended up satisfying few.

As an online-only player, the ONE thing I wanted in a new version, a full-blown Catobase utility, is missing. Therefore, the endless flexibility of the new version is completely meaningless to me.

Look at the way Solecismic creates their versions of FOF -- Jim seemingly listens to no one and relases whenever the game is ready....but you KNOW it will work. This seems to satisfy his core market, who, I assume, are those who drive repeat purchases.

Raidergoo · 09-27-2006, 05:07 PM

Short version: He's right more than wrong.

Quote: