Error in league/player history

rogmax11 · 09-18-2006, 12:15 PM

While browsing through minor league history in my solo world I found a glitch: a pitcher named "Bob Bescher" is credited with a perfect game for a class A team back in 1903 ( I am currently at pre-season 1918 ), but the link to the player name brings up Bob Bescher the outfielder, with a lengthy history indeed, but not a whiff of ever having pitched an inning--much less a perfecto.

I checked the player register for the league and found no reference, either in pitcher OR player listings, for a "Bob Bescher", which only deepens the mystery. Being an old fart myself, I actually recognized the name as that of an early day outfielder and base-stealing whiz who did play back in that era ( with the Reds if I recall correctly ), hence my curiousity and subsequent search.

The above leads me to suspect a similar glitch may well infect history on other levels of the universe; I'm playing v.22270 ( or whatever the latest patch is ), using Arod/Garlon DB, quasi-historical ML with three levels of minors, and running from 1901 on. Ive had to fill the A-level minors three times to get past "illegal roster" warnings, but otherwise haven't done any other player creation moves, and have used only the ML draft each year to reload teams (excepting the creation year which was entirely fictional, since I set up divisional play from the get-go.

Now that Ive seen this, I'll start a more intense scrutiny of my nearly 20-year history, and see what else we find. If this stuff is too widespread then the historical part of the game will be rendered pointless, and this could well be a gamebreaker, at least for me.

rogmax11 · 09-18-2006, 01:53 PM

Found another one: same game, at AAA level, a pitcher named Pedro Ramos (!) is listed in the 20-game winners in 1903 as a "0-0, 0.00 ERA, etc." Ramos shows as having a 9 year, mostly minor-league career with no more than 9 wins and ZERO starts.

rogmax11 · 09-18-2006, 02:19 PM

And another one. This time its a bit more egregious and Im beginning to get alarmed. The player credited with the first no-hitter in AA history--in1901--is a Jim Viox ( Now there's a valid created name ), which wouldnt upset me so much if it werent for the fact that guess who has been the AL MVP secondbaseman the past two seasons (1916, 1917) and and who shows as debuting in 1912--briefly, as a DH--with no history, ever, as a pitcher. What the hell is going on?

rogmax11 · 09-18-2006, 02:28 PM

And yet another one, right behind the multi-faceted Mr. Viox. Now its Charlie Case, credited with the second no-hitter in AA history, allegedly thrown in 1902. Click on the link and good ol' Charlie shows as debuting in 1903--though this time he is a pitcher--and retiring after a modest 10 year ML career in 1917.

Only thing is, no history in 1902, no record on the player page of a no-no.

Im off to scour the ML books now, but boy do I have a sinking feeling in my stomach.

rogmax11 · 09-18-2006, 02:44 PM

Well crap, this goes on and on and on. It seems that the old recycled player ID bug/feature/quirk is still very much alive. 10 or 15 years down the road the player histories seem to become compromised. The league histories, particularly in the accomplishment fields, look convincing but there is no connectivity to the player pages and I dont know who really did what.

Net situation: hundreds of hours invested into a relatively detailed universe that no longer has any vestige of believability. This is a hugely disappointing development and I would sure like to know what, if anything, can be done to correct the condition, or at least prevent it from arising again. Its pretty damn difficult to accept a historical simulation of baseball that is in fact unable to create or maintain that history. Gentlemen?

Comedian2004 · 09-18-2006, 05:17 PM

Do you have it clicked to delete players that never reached the minors? There is an option game setup to set that.

Maybe that is where the issue is. I have never turned this option on.

1998 Yankees · 09-19-2006, 09:33 AM

rogmax11,

I was seeing exactly what you described, so I started a thread a while back called "Deleted Retired Player = Recycled ID?" here:

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=130513

Markus got on a couple of times to confirm what you are saying, and what Comedian2004 says is the probable cause. If you have that setting on, the game recycles retired player ID's for those players who never made it to the "major leagues" (see what I posted there for my theory on what those are for this purpose).

FYI, this is not viewed as a bug, but as a tradeoff option. Apparently, if you have thousands of minor league players that never get deleted and recycled, the player history files get larger and more numerous, taking up file space and slowing the game down.

I feel (or have felt) your pain; this is why we need this option explained in an updated manual.

rogmax11 · 09-19-2006, 11:15 AM

Thanks guys, I do indeed have that option checked.

So, bottom line, the design decision isnt a bug but is a flaw. Got it.

It appears that a visit with the delete button is in order, followed by yet another universe--nah, lets use miniverse here, since no minors are actually viable without leaving the erase scrub option checked--creation oddysey. Guess I ought to defrag while Im at it.

Yowzah, we be having some fun now, eh lads?

1998 Yankees · 09-19-2006, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogmax11

Thanks guys, I do indeed have that option checked.

So, bottom line, the design decision isnt a bug but is a flaw. Got it.

It appears that a visit with the delete button is in order, followed by yet another universe--nah, lets use miniverse here, since no minors are actually viable without leaving the erase scrub option checked--creation oddysey. Guess I ought to defrag while Im at it.

Yowzah, we be having some fun now, eh lads?

I've learned not to look at my minor league history that closely. I still want minor leagues to manage but I don't want to sit all day simulating when my universe celebrates its centennial, so I made the choice to delete retired non-major league players. I agree completely with your assessment: not technically a bug, but a serious design flaw* (and potential game-breaker for folks who don't know about the choice to make).

* Actually, I had proposed what I think might be a relatively easy fix: Whenever deleting/recycling a player, check leaderboards and such for current linkage to player ID. If so, disable link; name and accomplishment stay on leaderboard, but no link = retired non-major league player, so no further player information available. Not the best alternative, but better than choosing between bogus history or bloated player files.

rogmax11 · 09-19-2006, 12:41 PM

Glad I didnt post my idea for a quick cosmetic fix, which was essentially yours; I dont understand why there isnt a warning! pop-up to at least alert the user as to the potential consequences of his choice.

I like the concept of having minors if only to provide a more complete-looking player history, and I despise the way the reserve roster allows players to rack up years of non-entity existence, so Im probably stuck with either creating minimalist league structures or looking ahead to ever-longer compilation times between seasons. Oh Joy!

09-18-2006, 12:15 PM	#1
rogmax11 All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,320	Error in league/player history While browsing through minor league history in my solo world I found a glitch: a pitcher named "Bob Bescher" is credited with a perfect game for a class A team back in 1903 ( I am currently at pre-season 1918 ), but the link to the player name brings up Bob Bescher the outfielder, with a lengthy history indeed, but not a whiff of ever having pitched an inning--much less a perfecto. I checked the player register for the league and found no reference, either in pitcher OR player listings, for a "Bob Bescher", which only deepens the mystery. Being an old fart myself, I actually recognized the name as that of an early day outfielder and base-stealing whiz who did play back in that era ( with the Reds if I recall correctly ), hence my curiousity and subsequent search. The above leads me to suspect a similar glitch may well infect history on other levels of the universe; I'm playing v.22270 ( or whatever the latest patch is ), using Arod/Garlon DB, quasi-historical ML with three levels of minors, and running from 1901 on. Ive had to fill the A-level minors three times to get past "illegal roster" warnings, but otherwise haven't done any other player creation moves, and have used only the ML draft each year to reload teams (excepting the creation year which was entirely fictional, since I set up divisional play from the get-go. Now that Ive seen this, I'll start a more intense scrutiny of my nearly 20-year history, and see what else we find. If this stuff is too widespread then the historical part of the game will be rendered pointless, and this could well be a gamebreaker, at least for me.

09-18-2006, 05:17 PM	#6
Comedian2004 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: In a house in Saint Cloud, Florida. Posts: 7,085	Do you have it clicked to delete players that never reached the minors? There is an option game setup to set that. Maybe that is where the issue is. I have never turned this option on. __________________ Like BLUES? Visit www.smokestacklightnin.com, you will LOVE it! New show every Monday!! New Blues HOF![/COLOR][/FONT]

09-19-2006, 09:33 AM	#7
1998 Yankees Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Yankee Stadium, back in 1998. Posts: 8,645	rogmax11, I was seeing exactly what you described, so I started a thread a while back called "Deleted Retired Player = Recycled ID?" here: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=130513 Markus got on a couple of times to confirm what you are saying, and what Comedian2004 says is the probable cause. If you have that setting on, the game recycles retired player ID's for those players who never made it to the "major leagues" (see what I posted there for my theory on what those are for this purpose). FYI, this is not viewed as a bug, but as a tradeoff option. Apparently, if you have thousands of minor league players that never get deleted and recycled, the player history files get larger and more numerous, taking up file space and slowing the game down. I feel (or have felt) your pain; this is why we need this option explained in an updated manual. Last edited by 1998 Yankees; 09-19-2006 at 10:15 AM.

09-18-2006, 01:53 PM	#2
rogmax11 All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,320	Found another one: same game, at AAA level, a pitcher named Pedro Ramos (!) is listed in the 20-game winners in 1903 as a "0-0, 0.00 ERA, etc." Ramos shows as having a 9 year, mostly minor-league career with no more than 9 wins and ZERO starts.

09-18-2006, 02:19 PM	#3
rogmax11 All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,320	And another one. This time its a bit more egregious and Im beginning to get alarmed. The player credited with the first no-hitter in AA history--in1901--is a Jim Viox ( Now there's a valid created name ), which wouldnt upset me so much if it werent for the fact that guess who has been the AL MVP secondbaseman the past two seasons (1916, 1917) and and who shows as debuting in 1912--briefly, as a DH--with no history, ever, as a pitcher. What the hell is going on?

09-18-2006, 02:28 PM	#4
rogmax11 All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,320	And yet another one, right behind the multi-faceted Mr. Viox. Now its Charlie Case, credited with the second no-hitter in AA history, allegedly thrown in 1902. Click on the link and good ol' Charlie shows as debuting in 1903--though this time he is a pitcher--and retiring after a modest 10 year ML career in 1917. Only thing is, no history in 1902, no record on the player page of a no-no. Im off to scour the ML books now, but boy do I have a sinking feeling in my stomach.

09-18-2006, 02:44 PM	#5
rogmax11 All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,320	Well crap, this goes on and on and on. It seems that the old recycled player ID bug/feature/quirk is still very much alive. 10 or 15 years down the road the player histories seem to become compromised. The league histories, particularly in the accomplishment fields, look convincing but there is no connectivity to the player pages and I dont know who really did what. Net situation: hundreds of hours invested into a relatively detailed universe that no longer has any vestige of believability. This is a hugely disappointing development and I would sure like to know what, if anything, can be done to correct the condition, or at least prevent it from arising again. Its pretty damn difficult to accept a historical simulation of baseball that is in fact unable to create or maintain that history. Gentlemen?

09-19-2006, 11:15 AM	#8
rogmax11 All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,320	Thanks guys, I do indeed have that option checked. So, bottom line, the design decision isnt a bug but is a flaw. Got it. It appears that a visit with the delete button is in order, followed by yet another universe--nah, lets use miniverse here, since no minors are actually viable without leaving the erase scrub option checked--creation oddysey. Guess I ought to defrag while Im at it. Yowzah, we be having some fun now, eh lads?

09-19-2006, 12:41 PM	#10
rogmax11 All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,320	Glad I didnt post my idea for a quick cosmetic fix, which was essentially yours; I dont understand why there isnt a warning! pop-up to at least alert the user as to the potential consequences of his choice. I like the concept of having minors if only to provide a more complete-looking player history, and I despise the way the reserve roster allows players to rack up years of non-entity existence, so Im probably stuck with either creating minimalist league structures or looking ahead to ever-longer compilation times between seasons. Oh Joy!