Too much platooning

Mr. Capo · 08-16-2006, 06:40 PM

There's another thread going about goofy platooning (guys hitting cleanup vs. left, and 8th vs. right, etc.) but my feeling is that there is just too much platooning in general.

In one historical league I played, Ty Cobb was platooned all year. The real Georgia Peach would probably have beaten the snot out of the manager for benching him against lefties.

It has been suggested that maybe the L/R splits assigned to pitchers and those assigned to hitters are both being evaluated, doubling the true bias. Whatever the reason, the computer-managed teams LOVE to platoon whenever remotely possible. I'd like a master control under global settings to turn this down, and/or a checkbox under player strategy: "do not platoon."

TheGreatAndini · 08-16-2006, 07:13 PM

I;ve seen it too. The AI seems overlty obsseded with having RHB facing LHP and vica versa, even though it means the perfect lead of guy ends up being 7th in the line up

Mr. Capo · 08-20-2006, 01:57 AM

I've always checked the "generate random L/R splits" box when importing players. I wonder if that's really a good idea. What happens if you don't?

Kemp · 08-20-2006, 06:59 AM

The platooning is one of the reasons I went with 19 man rosters (I also use 3 man rotations but I play fictional).

With fewer choices on the roster, the computer managers don't seem to platoon so much.

Kekkonen · 08-20-2006, 07:07 AM

It's also a good reason to stock up on lefty starters when you're playing solo. You can get through a best-of-3 series with the opponent's monster left-handed hitters making only pinch-hit appearances.

CaLíKrAzY · 08-20-2006, 07:28 AM

Agreed,

Been seeing guys hit cleanup only to bat first on the other split. I have no idea whats causing it but its definately something that needs to be tweaked.

wbonnell · 09-24-2006, 01:03 AM

Is this not considered a major problem? My 16-team is rife with bizarre platooning. For an especially egregious platoon, there is a stud Lefthanded 1B with an overall rating of 80 that rides the pine against lefty pitchers. The player that replaces him is a replacement level righty 1B with an overall of 40. WTF?!

mlyons · 09-24-2006, 01:07 AM

I do that sort of platooning myself.

wbonnell · 09-24-2006, 01:26 AM

To clarify, I have selected "traditional" (rather than sabermetric) linuep selection. I went through each team's lineup and found that virtually all lefties, no matter how good, were in platoons. Is it possible that my 16-team league with one minor league (AAA) has too many quality reserves? Still a player rated 80 overall (or, hell, 70+) should never be platooned.

CMH · 09-24-2006, 02:45 PM

This appears to be true whether you have traditional or sabermetric lineups.

I don't think it's the quality of the bench players since star players are being platooned with mediocre ones.

The only thing I can think of is what someone already mentioned - the CPU AI overvalues LHB against RHP and vice versa. It seems that handiness is taken into account before overall talent. It should definitely be the other way.

A platoon should only occur when the bench player is clearly better than the starter against a certain handiness. As of right now, a LHB could be a 3/5 against LHP and a RHB could be a 3/5 against LHP and the RHB would get the start. Other things need to be taken into account.

(I do realize that 3/5 isn't always the same 3/5 with two different players. I use that example because even though one 3/5 may be higher than another 3/5 the numbers are still too close. A clear difference should be 1/5 against a 3/5. Though, I also understand that a lot of it is based on opinion and I imagine this is something that many people will have different opinions on).

mlyons · 09-27-2006, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YankeePride

This appears to be true whether you have traditional or sabermetric lineups.

I don't think it's the quality of the bench players since star players are being platooned with mediocre ones.

The only thing I can think of is what someone already mentioned - the CPU AI overvalues LHB against RHP and vice versa. It seems that handiness is taken into account before overall talent. It should definitely be the other way.

A platoon should only occur when the bench player is clearly better than the starter against a certain handiness. As of right now, a LHB could be a 3/5 against LHP and a RHB could be a 3/5 against LHP and the RHB would get the start. Other things need to be taken into account.

(I do realize that 3/5 isn't always the same 3/5 with two different players. I use that example because even though one 3/5 may be higher than another 3/5 the numbers are still too close. A clear difference should be 1/5 against a 3/5. Though, I also understand that a lot of it is based on opinion and I imagine this is something that many people will have different opinions on).

If they're platooning, neither of them are bench players.

You're working backwards from how the AI does it (and how it should be done, I think). You're starting with a player's overall value (the sum of his ability versus lefties and righties) and moving backwards from that to determine whether he should platoon. That's not how the AI (and I) do it. The lineup vs. lefties and the lineup vs. righties are created completely independently of each other, looking only at the appropriate ratings or stats. Only if there's no clear distinction to be made between two hitters does the "overall" ability play a role.

When making up a lineup against left-handed pitching, why would you care how someone hits righthanders?

majesty95 · 09-27-2006, 12:29 AM

I agree with mylons. I've seen good LHB not see alot of LHP. Growing up as a Twins fan, Kent Hrbek comes to mind. It wasn't a true platoon like the sim makes it but Gene Larkin saw alor of time at 1B vs righties. The Rangers have done it with Hank Blalock, etc. Its probably exaggerated in the sim but it probably happens in RL more than you give it credit for.

Cork55 · 09-27-2006, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGreatAndini

I;ve seen it too. The AI seems overlty obsseded with having RHB facing LHP and vica versa, even though it means the perfect lead of guy ends up being 7th in the line up

This is a major problem with the game and should be at or near the top of fixes for OOTP2007. In real life good players are virtually never platooned no matter who is pitching. It drives me crazy to see the AI repeatedly pinch hit for its good starters just because I make a pitching change.

-Cork55

Curtis · 09-28-2006, 08:28 PM

Right now there are six(!) Mets starters who are hitting under .200 vs. left handers. I sure WISH those guys were being platooned!

MadMax58 · 09-28-2006, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curtis Cook

Right now there are six(!) Mets starters who are hitting under .200 vs. left handers. I sure WISH those guys were being platooned!

LMAO...I hear ya on that!! They better get it going for the playoffs!

Sorry for threadjacking...back to regular discussions.

CMH · 09-29-2006, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlyons

When making up a lineup against left-handed pitching, why would you care how someone hits righthanders?

I think my wording was bad.

There seems to be two camps on this.

One camp wants strict LH lineups and RH lineups. The kind that only looks at ability to hit LHP and RHP and then orders a lineup strictly on those laws.

The second camp wants a lineup somewhat dependent on that, but much more dependent on overall rating.

I fall in the second camp. Basically, if I have Johnny Damon (yes, I realize the game doesn't recognize names) I think Damon should always be my leadoff hitter and should face LHP and RHP. As of right now, the game will move Damon to another spot in the lineup against LHP because he is a LHB.

Other times, the game AI will replace a better hitter in the lineup for a bench player just because the bench player may be a tad bit better than the overall better player against a certain handiness.

In simple words, my star player shouldn't be sitting against LHP just because his rating against LHP is a bit lower than a poor hitting bench player.

mlyons · 09-30-2006, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YankeePride

I think my wording was bad.

There seems to be two camps on this.

One camp wants strict LH lineups and RH lineups. The kind that only looks at ability to hit LHP and RHP and then orders a lineup strictly on those laws.

The second camp wants a lineup somewhat dependent on that, but much more dependent on overall rating.

I fall in the second camp. Basically, if I have Johnny Damon (yes, I realize the game doesn't recognize names) I think Damon should always be my leadoff hitter and should face LHP and RHP. As of right now, the game will move Damon to another spot in the lineup against LHP because he is a LHB.

No, it wouldn't, because Damon hits lefties almost as well as he hits righties, and the Yankees don't have a better leadoff hitter against lefties. If OOTP is shifting him in the lineup, it's because somebody had his splits wrong when they created him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yankeepride

Other times, the game AI will replace a better hitter in the lineup for a bench player just because the bench player may be a tad bit better than the overall better player against a certain handiness.

In simple words, my star player shouldn't be sitting against LHP just because his rating against LHP is a bit lower than a poor hitting bench player.

Why not, though? Why wouldn't you want your best lineup against lefties hitting against lefties? What possible reason would you have for starting Trot Nixon against a leftie if you have Gabe Kapler available, for instance? Nixon's clearly a better player overall, but it's silly to start him against lefties.

Seriously, I haven't really encountered an egregious situation of this, where the AI will regularly bench a left-handed hitter in favor of a right-hander even if the right-hander doesn't perform better against left-handers.

fhomess · 09-30-2006, 03:17 PM

I haven't seen exactly what the AI is doing, but I'll throw my thoughts in anyway. The ability to hit against the handedness of the pitcher should be taken into account, certainly. Defense and baserunning ability also need to be considered. Even if those balance out, from a strategic standpoint, if you have a player who's slightly worse against the starter's handedness, but significantly better against other handed pitchers, it still makes sense to start him because you won't have to use a substitution later in the game. It's about anticipating future game situations. It's highly likely that the opposing manager will replace his starter with a pitcher of the opposite hand to force you to use your bench players when the situation is less than ideal.

Curtis · 09-30-2006, 09:03 PM

I've always been a big believer in platooning. In a non-DH league, if I can finagle fourteen position players, my ideal is always two guys playing both ways and twelve platooners.

Platooning batters is better than using utility players. Your platooners get enough playing time to stay sharp, but enough rest not to wear down as the season grinds on. (Please, no one restart that 'position players should not generate fatigue' arguement again.) If one half of your platoon is injured, the other half becomes temporarily full time. Easy peasy. I don't care if some of my platooners are making superstar wages (although when contract negotiations roll around, this might indicate that an adjustment in my favor is warranted), they'll just have to check their egoes at the clubhouse door.

I used to prefer to make up four lineups, because some pitchers are actually tougher against opposite-handed batters. I don't think I've noticed that in this game, but it happened frequently in Strat-o-Matic. If you're not mini/maxing with your players, you're wasting the owner's money.

mlyons · 09-30-2006, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fhomess

I haven't seen exactly what the AI is doing, but I'll throw my thoughts in anyway. The ability to hit against the handedness of the pitcher should be taken into account, certainly. Defense and baserunning ability also need to be considered. Even if those balance out, from a strategic standpoint, if you have a player who's slightly worse against the starter's handedness, but significantly better against other handed pitchers, it still makes sense to start him because you won't have to use a substitution later in the game. It's about anticipating future game situations. It's highly likely that the opposing manager will replace his starter with a pitcher of the opposite hand to force you to use your bench players when the situation is less than ideal.

What do you have against using pinch-hitters in late innings?

08-16-2006, 06:40 PM	#1
Mr. Capo Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 240	Too much platooning There's another thread going about goofy platooning (guys hitting cleanup vs. left, and 8th vs. right, etc.) but my feeling is that there is just too much platooning in general. In one historical league I played, Ty Cobb was platooned all year. The real Georgia Peach would probably have beaten the snot out of the manager for benching him against lefties. It has been suggested that maybe the L/R splits assigned to pitchers and those assigned to hitters are both being evaluated, doubling the true bias. Whatever the reason, the computer-managed teams LOVE to platoon whenever remotely possible. I'd like a master control under global settings to turn this down, and/or a checkbox under player strategy: "do not platoon." Last edited by Mr. Capo; 08-16-2006 at 06:41 PM.

09-24-2006, 01:07 AM	#8
mlyons Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 3,725	I do that sort of platooning myself. __________________ Things can always be worse.

09-24-2006, 01:26 AM	#9
wbonnell Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 77	To clarify, I have selected "traditional" (rather than sabermetric) linuep selection. I went through each team's lineup and found that virtually all lefties, no matter how good, were in platoons. Is it possible that my 16-team league with one minor league (AAA) has too many quality reserves? Still a player rated 80 overall (or, hell, 70+) should never be platooned. Last edited by wbonnell; 09-24-2006 at 01:32 AM.

09-30-2006, 03:17 PM	#18
fhomess Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,678	I haven't seen exactly what the AI is doing, but I'll throw my thoughts in anyway. The ability to hit against the handedness of the pitcher should be taken into account, certainly. Defense and baserunning ability also need to be considered. Even if those balance out, from a strategic standpoint, if you have a player who's slightly worse against the starter's handedness, but significantly better against other handed pitchers, it still makes sense to start him because you won't have to use a substitution later in the game. It's about anticipating future game situations. It's highly likely that the opposing manager will replace his starter with a pitcher of the opposite hand to force you to use your bench players when the situation is less than ideal. __________________ StatsLab- PHP/MySQL based utilities for Online Leagues Baseball Cards - Full list of known templates and documentation on card development.

08-16-2006, 07:13 PM	#2
TheGreatAndini Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 33	I;ve seen it too. The AI seems overlty obsseded with having RHB facing LHP and vica versa, even though it means the perfect lead of guy ends up being 7th in the line up

08-20-2006, 01:57 AM	#3
Mr. Capo Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 240	I've always checked the "generate random L/R splits" box when importing players. I wonder if that's really a good idea. What happens if you don't?

08-20-2006, 06:59 AM	#4
Kemp All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,181	The platooning is one of the reasons I went with 19 man rosters (I also use 3 man rotations but I play fictional). With fewer choices on the roster, the computer managers don't seem to platoon so much.

08-20-2006, 07:07 AM	#5
Kekkonen All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Putting the 'in' in Finland Posts: 739	It's also a good reason to stock up on lefty starters when you're playing solo. You can get through a best-of-3 series with the opponent's monster left-handed hitters making only pinch-hit appearances.

08-20-2006, 07:28 AM	#6
CaLíKrAzY All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Costa Mesa, CaLí Posts: 722	Agreed, Been seeing guys hit cleanup only to bat first on the other split. I have no idea whats causing it but its definately something that needs to be tweaked.

09-24-2006, 01:03 AM	#7
wbonnell Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 77	Is this not considered a major problem? My 16-team is rife with bizarre platooning. For an especially egregious platoon, there is a stud Lefthanded 1B with an overall rating of 80 that rides the pine against lefty pitchers. The player that replaces him is a replacement level righty 1B with an overall of 40. WTF?!

09-24-2006, 02:45 PM	#10
CMH Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,057	This appears to be true whether you have traditional or sabermetric lineups. I don't think it's the quality of the bench players since star players are being platooned with mediocre ones. The only thing I can think of is what someone already mentioned - the CPU AI overvalues LHB against RHP and vice versa. It seems that handiness is taken into account before overall talent. It should definitely be the other way. A platoon should only occur when the bench player is clearly better than the starter against a certain handiness. As of right now, a LHB could be a 3/5 against LHP and a RHB could be a 3/5 against LHP and the RHB would get the start. Other things need to be taken into account. (I do realize that 3/5 isn't always the same 3/5 with two different players. I use that example because even though one 3/5 may be higher than another 3/5 the numbers are still too close. A clear difference should be 1/5 against a 3/5. Though, I also understand that a lot of it is based on opinion and I imagine this is something that many people will have different opinions on).

09-27-2006, 12:29 AM	#12
majesty95 All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 1,789	I agree with mylons. I've seen good LHB not see alot of LHP. Growing up as a Twins fan, Kent Hrbek comes to mind. It wasn't a true platoon like the sim makes it but Gene Larkin saw alor of time at 1B vs righties. The Rangers have done it with Hank Blalock, etc. Its probably exaggerated in the sim but it probably happens in RL more than you give it credit for.

09-28-2006, 08:28 PM	#14
Curtis Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Watertown, New York Posts: 4,567	Right now there are six(!) Mets starters who are hitting under .200 vs. left handers. I sure WISH those guys were being platooned!

09-30-2006, 09:03 PM	#19
Curtis Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Watertown, New York Posts: 4,567	I've always been a big believer in platooning. In a non-DH league, if I can finagle fourteen position players, my ideal is always two guys playing both ways and twelve platooners. Platooning batters is better than using utility players. Your platooners get enough playing time to stay sharp, but enough rest not to wear down as the season grinds on. (Please, no one restart that 'position players should not generate fatigue' arguement again.) If one half of your platoon is injured, the other half becomes temporarily full time. Easy peasy. I don't care if some of my platooners are making superstar wages (although when contract negotiations roll around, this might indicate that an adjustment in my favor is warranted), they'll just have to check their egoes at the clubhouse door. I used to prefer to make up four lineups, because some pitchers are actually tougher against opposite-handed batters. I don't think I've noticed that in this game, but it happened frequently in Strat-o-Matic. If you're not mini/maxing with your players, you're wasting the owner's money.