Jim, Legal Issues?

Barman · 02-04-2003, 12:01 PM

Hi Jim,

I'm just curious about the legal issues involved in using real fighters names. As we know, with games like Baseball Mogul and OOTP they're not allowed to use real players names. The major league baseball players association kicks up a fuss if money is being made. Some other commercial baseball games like High Heat etc.. need to pay hefty licensing fees to use real player names & images.

Now granted, boxers don't have an organized body like the players association to lobby for them. But I would expect they have some legal rights to their names being used in a commercial product. I've noticed games like knockout kings etc.. have licensed permission from the fighters they use. Is it because they use images of fighters. If so, why is baseball different.

Any light you can shed on the legal issued involved would be greatly appreciated.

Joe Canadian · 02-04-2003, 02:29 PM

I'm also curious in this. While in baseball, or footbal there is one body that could take legal action on behalf of it's members. In this case wouldn't it be possible for legal action to be taken by each, and every boxer that is included in the game?

I've made alot of posts involving this type of situation... in the past the .400 Team have usually had the issue under control. In this case it may be different since you may technically be allowed to use the boxers name, since anyone could be called Mike Tyson... it's just a name. But based on ratings, and if a bio is included for each fighter... to many coincidences could present an opportunity for someone to sue.

PS: I know... I worry to much

.

02-04-2003, 10:08 PM

Thanks guys. Now the game will NEVER be released.

wildhawke11 · 02-05-2003, 05:26 AM

Maybe as i said all along 60sfan, to be able to buy the game on CD even if it cost more at first,might pay off in the long run.
Then no matter what happens we HAVE the game.
I thought of the point there making from DAY ONE.

At least we have the old Title Fight Game on CD.

Oh yes i know what your saying 60S i could add more but i dont work for 400s Company.
Its like the Boss who asks his staff for ways and means of doing thinks faster and the BRIGHT SPARKS with eyes beaming are the first to give suggestions.
Then later moan, when the Company says " Sorry you are no longer a requirement to our needs "
Trust me in this day and age its hard keeping a job as you know let alone pushing yourself out of work.
Yes there is a connection in case anyone is wondering.

I still hope to buy a CD WORKING VERSION. ITS ALL MINE THEN but as i said some people can only see the quick $$$$$$ save.

Joe Canadian · 02-05-2003, 06:11 AM

^ - I'm confused?

02-05-2003, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 60'sfan
Thanks guys. Now the game will NEVER be released.

Like Joe Canadian, I probably worry too much.

wildhawke11 · 02-05-2003, 08:31 AM

no 60Sfan your just using common sense :-)
a tiny spark in the right place quickly becomes a raging inferno.

Joe Stallings · 02-05-2003, 08:40 AM

My understanding, and Jim or Tom can correct me if I am wrong, is that there is no central, governing body which manages licensing of names and likenesses like you have with other sports (MLBPA, NFLPA, NHLPA, etc.). Each boxer has his/her own arrangement, and some (most?) don't have any at all.

Joe Canadian · 02-05-2003, 08:53 AM

Yeah Joe thats what I was saying... but lets say Fred B. Boxer (made up name) finds this game and wants royalties from it. If his agent/lawyer managed other boxers, there would be problems, wouldn't there?

Just trying to look out for you guys

.

wildhawke11 · 02-05-2003, 09:18 AM

see what i mean 60Sfan

JOE its a poor Company that cant think for it self dont you agree LOL.

Joe Canadian · 02-05-2003, 09:57 AM

wildhawke what are you talking about? I'm not calling the .400 Studios team stupid... I'm sure they have it all figured out, I'm just wondering how.

It's possible I'm really dense, because I have no idea what your previous post means either.

Barman · 02-05-2003, 10:22 AM

All it will take is one manager/lawyer/promoter type (say don king) to notice somebody making money off of his fighters names to start the trouble. Baseball, football etc... is actually easier to deal with because you only have to deal with one body (more if you want team names). But boxing would be next to impossible considering you would have to deal with the management of each fighter not to mention the estates of deceased fighters. I'm pretty sure easports knockout kings has licensing agreements with each fighter included in that game (even joe louis's estate).

Rockpile · 02-05-2003, 05:15 PM

If nothing else the REAL fighters can be released as a utility.

Not a big deal.

wildhawke11 · 02-05-2003, 05:25 PM

Joe
Correct me if i am wrong but only one person ( namely you ) has used the word STUPID.

Joe Canadian · 02-05-2003, 05:28 PM

I'm sorry... I must of mis-understood. I didn't mean to offend you

. Sorry about that.

Grey Johnson · 02-05-2003, 05:48 PM

There is no central governering body for boxing (well, there might be if John McCain's bill passes later this year).

Also, most major fighters are part of dozens and dozens of promotions, but I don't think they have the rights to a fighters "name" in a game like this.

Joe Canadian · 02-05-2003, 07:05 PM

What I was saying was that the individual boxers could possibly take action, not the promotion itself or different boxing commisions. A scenario that could possibly happen is a boxer could discover the game and tell his lawyer about. That lawyer could then possibly manage or advise other boxers, that scenario could present problems to the .400 Team.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be real boxers in the game, or that .400 Software Studio emplyees don't know what they are doing. I'm just wondering about the situation.

Anyway, if it can be done without any problems, I'd love for the real boxers to be included in the game.

One last thing... an example of individuals holding the rights of there likness (picture or name) would be in tennis video games. In some you will see that some tennis stars are left off, for the reason being that the game company didn't get the rights for that individual star.

Anyway, I just thought I'd share my opinion. I really don't want to get in a big debate or argument about the subject(not accusing people of arguing, I just don't want this peacefull debate to turn into an argument).

Thanks

.

wildhawke11 · 02-05-2003, 07:57 PM

Joe no need to say Sorry we all have our views :-)
What i was pointing out was i am sure before going ahead with the Game those points you made were considered by 400s
Also its quite costly to take legal action, so it would need to be almost a certain win situation for someone or party to go ahead with it.
If your losing just go into liquidation and start again under anothere name :-)
Cheers Joe

Joe Canadian · 02-05-2003, 08:29 PM

I agree.

Jim Trunzo · 02-06-2003, 10:57 AM

Okay, I really haven't wanted to deal with this issue in print but let me give you the official understanding at which we have arrived over the many years of dealing with this issue:

1. There is no governing body that has any rights to the fighters, so there is no organization that determines the use of names, etc.

2. All IMAGES are the property of the individual fighter. You cannot use a fighter's picture without his permission . . . which is exactly why we are including the ABILITY to insert images but not providing them. What you do with the product once it becomes your personal property is up to you.

3. The names of the fighters are public domain unless they have TRADEMARKED it. Some have. If ever it became an issue, we would simply delete that fighter and clone him. A good case in point would be Lavar Arrington. Although he is an NFL player, he has trademarked his own name. That's why in most (I won't say all because some places run risks) online Fantasy Football leagues, you won't find Arrington among the linebackers available to be drafted. The company pays a royalty to the NFL Player Association but Arrington is excluded because of his personal "protection".

4. Cities are public domain. Team names are not. You can have the Pittsburgh Pukes but not the Pittsburgh PIRATES. You can have the Boston Stinky Sox but not the Boston Red Sox.

Is it tricky? Yes. Are there ways around it? Sure. The bottom line is that so far we are such a small entity that we are beneath the notice of the few fighters who would care: Mike Tyson, George Foreman and Oscar de la Hoya. Could they eventually contact us - yes and we would delete them as per their request.

02-04-2003, 12:01 PM	#1
Barman Bat Boy Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 11	Jim, Legal Issues? Hi Jim, I'm just curious about the legal issues involved in using real fighters names. As we know, with games like Baseball Mogul and OOTP they're not allowed to use real players names. The major league baseball players association kicks up a fuss if money is being made. Some other commercial baseball games like High Heat etc.. need to pay hefty licensing fees to use real player names & images. Now granted, boxers don't have an organized body like the players association to lobby for them. But I would expect they have some legal rights to their names being used in a commercial product. I've noticed games like knockout kings etc.. have licensed permission from the fighters they use. Is it because they use images of fighters. If so, why is baseball different. Any light you can shed on the legal issued involved would be greatly appreciated.

02-04-2003, 02:29 PM	#2
Joe Canadian All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 1,296	I'm also curious in this. While in baseball, or footbal there is one body that could take legal action on behalf of it's members. In this case wouldn't it be possible for legal action to be taken by each, and every boxer that is included in the game? I've made alot of posts involving this type of situation... in the past the .400 Team have usually had the issue under control. In this case it may be different since you may technically be allowed to use the boxers name, since anyone could be called Mike Tyson... it's just a name. But based on ratings, and if a bio is included for each fighter... to many coincidences could present an opportunity for someone to sue. PS: I know... I worry to much . __________________ My Twitter \| My Blog \| My Music Fan of the Blue Jays, Maple Leafs, IceCaps, Lakers, and Broncos. Last edited by Joe Canadian; 02-05-2003 at 06:12 AM.

02-05-2003, 05:26 AM	#4
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,952	60S FAN RIGHT ON Maybe as i said all along 60sfan, to be able to buy the game on CD even if it cost more at first,might pay off in the long run. Then no matter what happens we HAVE the game. I thought of the point there making from DAY ONE. At least we have the old Title Fight Game on CD. Oh yes i know what your saying 60S i could add more but i dont work for 400s Company. Its like the Boss who asks his staff for ways and means of doing thinks faster and the BRIGHT SPARKS with eyes beaming are the first to give suggestions. Then later moan, when the Company says " Sorry you are no longer a requirement to our needs " Trust me in this day and age its hard keeping a job as you know let alone pushing yourself out of work. Yes there is a connection in case anyone is wondering. I still hope to buy a CD WORKING VERSION. ITS ALL MINE THEN but as i said some people can only see the quick $$$$$$ save. __________________ Always in our Hearts - RIP Danny 1939 - 2010

02-05-2003, 06:11 AM	#5
Joe Canadian All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 1,296	^ - I'm confused? __________________ My Twitter \| My Blog \| My Music Fan of the Blue Jays, Maple Leafs, IceCaps, Lakers, and Broncos.

02-05-2003, 08:31 AM	#7
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,952	60S no 60Sfan your just using common sense :-) a tiny spark in the right place quickly becomes a raging inferno. __________________ Always in our Hearts - RIP Danny 1939 - 2010 Last edited by wildhawke11; 02-05-2003 at 08:34 AM.

02-04-2003, 10:08 PM	#3
60'sfan Guest Posts: n/a	Thanks guys. Now the game will NEVER be released.

02-05-2003, 08:40 AM	#8
Joe Stallings Administrator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 239	My understanding, and Jim or Tom can correct me if I am wrong, is that there is no central, governing body which manages licensing of names and likenesses like you have with other sports (MLBPA, NFLPA, NHLPA, etc.). Each boxer has his/her own arrangement, and some (most?) don't have any at all.

02-05-2003, 08:53 AM	#9
Joe Canadian All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 1,296	Yeah Joe thats what I was saying... but lets say Fred B. Boxer (made up name) finds this game and wants royalties from it. If his agent/lawyer managed other boxers, there would be problems, wouldn't there? Just trying to look out for you guys . __________________ My Twitter \| My Blog \| My Music Fan of the Blue Jays, Maple Leafs, IceCaps, Lakers, and Broncos.

02-05-2003, 09:18 AM	#10
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,952	see what i mean 60Sfan JOE its a poor Company that cant think for it self dont you agree LOL. __________________ Always in our Hearts - RIP Danny 1939 - 2010

02-05-2003, 09:57 AM	#11
Joe Canadian All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 1,296	wildhawke what are you talking about? I'm not calling the .400 Studios team stupid... I'm sure they have it all figured out, I'm just wondering how. It's possible I'm really dense, because I have no idea what your previous post means either. __________________ My Twitter \| My Blog \| My Music Fan of the Blue Jays, Maple Leafs, IceCaps, Lakers, and Broncos.

02-05-2003, 10:22 AM	#12
Barman Bat Boy Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 11	All it will take is one manager/lawyer/promoter type (say don king) to notice somebody making money off of his fighters names to start the trouble. Baseball, football etc... is actually easier to deal with because you only have to deal with one body (more if you want team names). But boxing would be next to impossible considering you would have to deal with the management of each fighter not to mention the estates of deceased fighters. I'm pretty sure easports knockout kings has licensing agreements with each fighter included in that game (even joe louis's estate).

02-05-2003, 05:15 PM	#13
Rockpile All Star Reserve Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 620	If nothing else the REAL fighters can be released as a utility. Not a big deal.

02-05-2003, 05:25 PM	#14
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,952	Joe Correct me if i am wrong but only one person ( namely you ) has used the word STUPID. __________________ Always in our Hearts - RIP Danny 1939 - 2010

02-05-2003, 05:28 PM	#15
Joe Canadian All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 1,296	I'm sorry... I must of mis-understood. I didn't mean to offend you . Sorry about that. __________________ My Twitter \| My Blog \| My Music Fan of the Blue Jays, Maple Leafs, IceCaps, Lakers, and Broncos.

02-05-2003, 05:48 PM	#16
Grey Johnson Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 29	There is no central governering body for boxing (well, there might be if John McCain's bill passes later this year). Also, most major fighters are part of dozens and dozens of promotions, but I don't think they have the rights to a fighters "name" in a game like this. __________________ boxrec.com: FREE boxing records

02-05-2003, 07:05 PM	#17
Joe Canadian All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 1,296	What I was saying was that the individual boxers could possibly take action, not the promotion itself or different boxing commisions. A scenario that could possibly happen is a boxer could discover the game and tell his lawyer about. That lawyer could then possibly manage or advise other boxers, that scenario could present problems to the .400 Team. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be real boxers in the game, or that .400 Software Studio emplyees don't know what they are doing. I'm just wondering about the situation. Anyway, if it can be done without any problems, I'd love for the real boxers to be included in the game. One last thing... an example of individuals holding the rights of there likness (picture or name) would be in tennis video games. In some you will see that some tennis stars are left off, for the reason being that the game company didn't get the rights for that individual star. Anyway, I just thought I'd share my opinion. I really don't want to get in a big debate or argument about the subject(not accusing people of arguing, I just don't want this peacefull debate to turn into an argument). Thanks . __________________ My Twitter \| My Blog \| My Music Fan of the Blue Jays, Maple Leafs, IceCaps, Lakers, and Broncos.

02-05-2003, 07:57 PM	#18
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,952	To Joe Joe no need to say Sorry we all have our views :-) What i was pointing out was i am sure before going ahead with the Game those points you made were considered by 400s Also its quite costly to take legal action, so it would need to be almost a certain win situation for someone or party to go ahead with it. If your losing just go into liquidation and start again under anothere name :-) Cheers Joe __________________ Always in our Hearts - RIP Danny 1939 - 2010

02-05-2003, 08:29 PM	#19
Joe Canadian All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 1,296	I agree. __________________ My Twitter \| My Blog \| My Music Fan of the Blue Jays, Maple Leafs, IceCaps, Lakers, and Broncos.

02-06-2003, 10:57 AM	#20
Jim Trunzo OOTP Developments Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leechburg, PA Posts: 739	Okay, I really haven't wanted to deal with this issue in print but let me give you the official understanding at which we have arrived over the many years of dealing with this issue: 1. There is no governing body that has any rights to the fighters, so there is no organization that determines the use of names, etc. 2. All IMAGES are the property of the individual fighter. You cannot use a fighter's picture without his permission . . . which is exactly why we are including the ABILITY to insert images but not providing them. What you do with the product once it becomes your personal property is up to you. 3. The names of the fighters are public domain unless they have TRADEMARKED it. Some have. If ever it became an issue, we would simply delete that fighter and clone him. A good case in point would be Lavar Arrington. Although he is an NFL player, he has trademarked his own name. That's why in most (I won't say all because some places run risks) online Fantasy Football leagues, you won't find Arrington among the linebackers available to be drafted. The company pays a royalty to the NFL Player Association but Arrington is excluded because of his personal "protection". 4. Cities are public domain. Team names are not. You can have the Pittsburgh Pukes but not the Pittsburgh PIRATES. You can have the Boston Stinky Sox but not the Boston Red Sox. Is it tricky? Yes. Are there ways around it? Sure. The bottom line is that so far we are such a small entity that we are beneath the notice of the few fighters who would care: Mike Tyson, George Foreman and Oscar de la Hoya. Could they eventually contact us - yes and we would delete them as per their request.