Stealing Issues

Ambermonk · 07-06-2006, 12:00 AM

Has anyone noticed their team's reluctance to steal bases when requested? It seems like the initial part of the play is overridden by a later part.

i.e., My "91" base stealer facing a pitcher with a "16" pick-off & a catcher with a "25" arm will encounter this...

Wilson gets a great jump on the pitch
The pitch misses for a ball
Wilson doesn't get a good jump.

In a related issue, my catcher who has an "87" arm has only about a 37% throwout rate - but I have seen catchers with "25" arms have 75% throwout rates.

To my mind - there seems to be one or more bugs here.

f.montoya · 07-06-2006, 02:01 AM

Do you think you could compile some numbers on multiple catchers/basestealers over a full season or two or three, thus establishing a basis for which Markus can look at before making any tweaks to this area?

Also, hold on to your league file in case this is an isolated issue that needs looking at as a bug.

jbsnadb · 07-06-2006, 02:18 AM

This issue has been noted in the past, and I believe this PARTICULAR issue (great jump - not so great jump) has been fixed for the patch.

Ambermonk · 07-07-2006, 01:09 AM

Thanks for the info. I'll look forward to the upcoming patch.

Also, I hope the game will let my runners steal bases like they did in the previous version. Sometimes I find myself wishing that I was the first base coach with a virtual cattle prod.

Also, as mentioned earlier, it seems just as easy (or easier) to steal third base. Hope this gets fixed in the patch.

RonCo · 07-07-2006, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by f.montoya

Do you think you could compile some numbers on multiple catchers/basestealers over a full season or two or three, thus establishing a basis for which Markus can look at before making any tweaks to this area?

Also, hold on to your league file in case this is an isolated issue that needs looking at as a bug.

Catcher's arm ratings seem to work just fine. However, it's one of those things where, to your point, sample size makes all the difference.

StyxNCa · 07-08-2006, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonCo

Catcher's arm ratings seem to work just fine. However, it's one of those things where, to your point, sample size makes all the difference.

Catcher's arms can be effected by a pitcher's ability to hold runner's as well. It's a team effort within the battery.

jnshmoo · 07-08-2006, 08:27 PM

Geez, can't you find any of your own issues rather than resorting to stealing them?

Ambermonk · 07-09-2006, 12:32 AM

I have installed patch 1.0.2 and the stealing problem still exists - in spades!

Asking a runner on first to steal seems to have little effect on him stealing. It only serves to ruin the pitch count for the batter.

Does anyone know if there is a number in the code that can be changed to get the runner to actually attempt to steal?

If I had to guess - I'd say that asking a runner to steal increases the likelihood of them stealing by maybe 2-3% of the time. Not good enough.

TC Dale · 07-09-2006, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by f.montoya

Do you think you could compile some numbers on multiple catchers/basestealers over a full season or two or three, thus establishing a basis for which Markus can look at before making any tweaks to this area?

Also, hold on to your league file in case this is an isolated issue that needs looking at as a bug.

As fmontoya asked you earlier... we need about 3 seasons of numbers to verify this is an issue so we can take it to Markus and say here is the situationals and the numbers to back it up. AND backup your league regularly and save it.. for reference when needed.

Without these numbers we can't go in good faith to Markus and say this needs fixed. Get us some numbers we can go over, and some history, and maybe even a lg file when asked for.

But a few games of play doesn't a season or trend make.. ok?

Elendil · 07-09-2006, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambermonk

I have installed patch 1.0.2 and the stealing problem still exists - in spades!

Asking a runner on first to steal seems to have little effect on him stealing. It only serves to ruin the pitch count for the batter.

Does anyone know if there is a number in the code that can be changed to get the runner to actually attempt to steal?

If I had to guess - I'd say that asking a runner to steal increases the likelihood of them stealing by maybe 2-3% of the time. Not good enough.

You do realize that asking the runner to steal will only make him try to achieve a good lead, right? If he doesn't achieve a good lead, he won't go. IIRC (my demo time has run out), there is a "Force Steal" button that forces the runner to go, whether he gets a good lead or not.

Ambermonk · 07-09-2006, 03:46 PM

As far as a good lead goes, the text often explictly states that the runner has a good lead/break from the base - and still stops short!

I am getting more steals on "run & hit" than on "steal".

Regarding complete seasons, I am nearly halfway through my first season. I plan to have backups at the end of each season.

Elendil · 07-09-2006, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambermonk

I am getting more steals on "run & hit" than on "steal".

Of course you are - run & hit forces the runner to go! What you need to show is that when using the regular "steal" button you get, over a large sample, significantly fewer steals than happen IRL.

battists · 07-11-2006, 10:45 AM

All of this is not to say that there isn't an issue here, Ambermonk. We just need to come up some convincing numbers to make a case.

There's a few different frequencies you've brought up, and each has a different measure:

We can measure the relationship of catcher arm to throw-outs by looking at catcher statistics, although the correlation isn't 100% here, since as others mentioned, the pitcher and the stealer have some effect.

We can measure the frequency of steals overall by looking at league-wide steal totals at the end of a season.

One of the trickier ones is "how frequently does a player start to go, but then decide not to"? I'm not quite sure how to measure this one...

Ideas?

Steve

tysok · 07-11-2006, 11:04 AM

There were a lot of times in OOTP5 that I would tell the runner to steal and he "wouldn't get a good jump". Sometimes I'd end up with an 0-2 count and have to do a hit and run if I wanted him to go... very annoying, but not all that bad. It's probably the same thing here in this game but...

It's reporting that the runner is going and has a great jump or something silly, then says he didn't go. There's probably not a real problem here except the runner not stealing is magnified by the bogus report that he's gotten a great jump and he's off to the races... only to find out he didn't.
You have to admit that this sequence is just stupid regardless of if there's a problem with stealing:
Wilson gets a great jump on the pitch
The pitch misses for a ball
Wilson doesn't get a good jump.

That particular sequence is most likely due to the calls to the xml file, if I recall correctly all those are xml file lines. A rare occasional bogus report like that isn't bad, but it does happen far too often and it's just not possible that the announcer is that stupid.

I have a little time, I'll run a couple games and tell every runner to steal and report what the lines tell me and results.

battists · 07-11-2006, 11:28 AM

I logged at least one bug out of this:

TT # 2168, which asks Markus to look at the logic that would cause a player to "get a good jump" and then not steal.

tysok · 07-11-2006, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by battists

I logged at least one bug out of this:

TT # 2168, which asks Markus to look at the logic that would cause a player to "get a good jump" and then not steal.

That's the only thing that looks like a problem to me. I went through 2 games, every runner that got on I told to steal until he couldn't walk anymore... lazy bum.

I stole home twice... got thrown out at home three times... anyhow...
The pitchers all had 11 for hold runners, catchers all had 12 arms.
There were a total of 159 clicks telling the guys to steal. 10 of them resulted in the "is going, oops no he's not". Stealing 5 happened 4 times, stealing 6 3 times, 11 stealing 15 stealing, and 20 stealing one each.
Here's the results in the order they happened, the number is the runners stealing rating, steal just means he did run, no run he didn't and the 10 takes off but really doesn't.
It doesn't look that bad to me, especially when you have other options to make the guy run.

Code:

6			17			6			6
No run			No run			Steal			No run
No run			Steal			No run			No run
20			Steal			Steal			No run
Steal			5			11			No run
15			No run			Takes off			No run
No run			No run			  not good jump			No run
No run			No run			No run			5
Steal			No run			No run			No run
No run			No run			No run			No run
Takes off			No run			Steal			No run
  won't go			No run			20			Steal
No run			No run			No run			No run
Steal			Takes off			Steal			No run
15			  breaks, stops			Steal			No run
No run			No run			5			Takes off
Steal			Steal			No run			  not make a go of it
3			15			No run			No run
No run			Steal			No run			No run
No run			No run			No run			No run
No run			Steal			No run			No run
No run			20			is running			No run
No run			Steal			  breaks, stops			No run
No run			Steal			No run			No run
No run			Steal			6			No run
Steal			17			No run			No run
No run			No run			No run			Takes off
No run			Steal			No run			  edes off but no go
No run			6			No run			No run
No run			Steal			No run			No run
No run			15			Steal			No run
No run			No run			No run			11
No run			No run			No run			No run
No run			Steal			No run			No run
No run			No run			No run			No run
No run			Steal			Takes off			No run
No run			Steal			  leans but no break			Steal
No run			11			No run			Steal
No run			Steal			No run			
No run			Steal			12			
Steal			Steal			No run			
12			6			No run			
Steal			No run			No run			
20			No run			Steal			
Steal			No run			17			
Steal			No run			Steal			
Steal			No run			Steal			
6			Takes off			20			
Steal			  couldn't get in gear			No run
No run			No run			No run
No run			No run			No run
Steal			No run			is running
			No run			  didn't get jump
			No run			Steal
			No run			Steal
			No run			
			No run			
			No run			
			Takes off			
			  leans but no break			
			No run			
			No run

battists · 07-11-2006, 01:16 PM

Sorry, what does this sentence mean?

"Stealing 5 happened 4 times, stealing 6 3 times, 11 stealing 15 stealing, and 20 stealing one each."

battists · 07-14-2006, 09:30 AM

Can anyone provide specific lines of PbP text where the player appears to be going, and then doesn't? We're having trouble replicating this over here...

tysok · 07-14-2006, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by battists

Sorry, what does this sentence mean?

"Stealing 5 happened 4 times, stealing 6 3 times, 11 stealing 15 stealing, and 20 stealing one each."

Those are the occasions for the bogus running, but not really frequency in my test.
With a stealing rating of 5 runner I got themessage 4 times, with a stealing 6 rating runner I got the message 3 times...

Play out one game, tell every baserunner that gets on to steal every base he can until he scores or is thrown out. Straight steal, not run and hit.... sometime in that game you'll get the message. My data was 2 games of doing that, it happened 10 times.

07-06-2006, 12:00 AM	#1
Ambermonk All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Morro Bay, CA Posts: 1,257	Stealing Issues Has anyone noticed their team's reluctance to steal bases when requested? It seems like the initial part of the play is overridden by a later part. i.e., My "91" base stealer facing a pitcher with a "16" pick-off & a catcher with a "25" arm will encounter this... Wilson gets a great jump on the pitch The pitch misses for a ball Wilson doesn't get a good jump. In a related issue, my catcher who has an "87" arm has only about a 37% throwout rate - but I have seen catchers with "25" arms have 75% throwout rates. To my mind - there seems to be one or more bugs here.

07-06-2006, 02:01 AM	#2
f.montoya Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,069	Do you think you could compile some numbers on multiple catchers/basestealers over a full season or two or three, thus establishing a basis for which Markus can look at before making any tweaks to this area? Also, hold on to your league file in case this is an isolated issue that needs looking at as a bug. __________________ Fidel Montoya Asahi2 Baseball ex-Commissioner(Historical League Since 2004) www.allsimbaseball.com (OOTP web hosting - Customized sites for online leagues - Sign up, Connect OOTP and Play!) Share Your Mods - Free, unlimited and easy to upload to share your Mods instantly(free site registration required)

07-06-2006, 02:18 AM	#3
jbsnadb All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,098	This issue has been noted in the past, and I believe this PARTICULAR issue (great jump - not so great jump) has been fixed for the patch. __________________ "And as I wander with my music through the jungles of Despair, my kid will learn guitar and find a street corner somewhere. There he'll make the silence listen to the dream behind the voice, and show his minstrel Hamlet daddy that there only was one choice."

07-07-2006, 01:09 AM	#4
Ambermonk All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Morro Bay, CA Posts: 1,257	Thanks for the info. I'll look forward to the upcoming patch. Also, I hope the game will let my runners steal bases like they did in the previous version. Sometimes I find myself wishing that I was the first base coach with a virtual cattle prod. Also, as mentioned earlier, it seems just as easy (or easier) to steal third base. Hope this gets fixed in the patch. Last edited by Ambermonk; 07-07-2006 at 01:13 AM.

07-08-2006, 08:27 PM	#7
jnshmoo All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Not Here Posts: 1,226	Geez, can't you find any of your own issues rather than resorting to stealing them? __________________ Beer Snob and Baseball Sim Geek

07-09-2006, 12:32 AM	#8
Ambermonk All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Morro Bay, CA Posts: 1,257	I have installed patch 1.0.2 and the stealing problem still exists - in spades! Asking a runner on first to steal seems to have little effect on him stealing. It only serves to ruin the pitch count for the batter. Does anyone know if there is a number in the code that can be changed to get the runner to actually attempt to steal? If I had to guess - I'd say that asking a runner to steal increases the likelihood of them stealing by maybe 2-3% of the time. Not good enough.

07-09-2006, 03:46 PM	#11
Ambermonk All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Morro Bay, CA Posts: 1,257	As far as a good lead goes, the text often explictly states that the runner has a good lead/break from the base - and still stops short! I am getting more steals on "run & hit" than on "steal". Regarding complete seasons, I am nearly halfway through my first season. I plan to have backups at the end of each season. Last edited by Ambermonk; 07-09-2006 at 03:47 PM.

07-11-2006, 10:45 AM	#13
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506	All of this is not to say that there isn't an issue here, Ambermonk. We just need to come up some convincing numbers to make a case. There's a few different frequencies you've brought up, and each has a different measure: We can measure the relationship of catcher arm to throw-outs by looking at catcher statistics, although the correlation isn't 100% here, since as others mentioned, the pitcher and the stealer have some effect. We can measure the frequency of steals overall by looking at league-wide steal totals at the end of a season. One of the trickier ones is "how frequently does a player start to go, but then decide not to"? I'm not quite sure how to measure this one... Ideas? Steve

07-11-2006, 11:04 AM	#14
tysok Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,925	There were a lot of times in OOTP5 that I would tell the runner to steal and he "wouldn't get a good jump". Sometimes I'd end up with an 0-2 count and have to do a hit and run if I wanted him to go... very annoying, but not all that bad. It's probably the same thing here in this game but... It's reporting that the runner is going and has a great jump or something silly, then says he didn't go. There's probably not a real problem here except the runner not stealing is magnified by the bogus report that he's gotten a great jump and he's off to the races... only to find out he didn't. You have to admit that this sequence is just stupid regardless of if there's a problem with stealing: Wilson gets a great jump on the pitch The pitch misses for a ball Wilson doesn't get a good jump. That particular sequence is most likely due to the calls to the xml file, if I recall correctly all those are xml file lines. A rare occasional bogus report like that isn't bad, but it does happen far too often and it's just not possible that the announcer is that stupid. I have a little time, I'll run a couple games and tell every runner to steal and report what the lines tell me and results.

07-11-2006, 11:28 AM	#15
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506	I logged at least one bug out of this: TT # 2168, which asks Markus to look at the logic that would cause a player to "get a good jump" and then not steal.

07-11-2006, 01:16 PM	#17
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506	Sorry, what does this sentence mean? "Stealing 5 happened 4 times, stealing 6 3 times, 11 stealing 15 stealing, and 20 stealing one each."

07-14-2006, 09:30 AM	#18
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506	Can anyone provide specific lines of PbP text where the player appears to be going, and then doesn't? We're having trouble replicating this over here...